RE: Any news on MP'er with Harpoon ANW 3.10?

RE: Any news on MP'er with Harpoon ANW 3.10? (Full Version)

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mikmykWS -> RE: Any news on MP'er with Harpoon ANW 3.10? (10/16/2010 11:46:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Vincenzo Beretta quote: ORIGINAL: Bucks quote: ORIGINAL: Vincenzo Beretta I'm prefectly able to lose weight and live an healhier life: just don't ask me to stop smoking, to stop eating junk food, and to start a regular cycle of exercises. Everyone agrees that it would be a "congenial" plan! [:D] Pity that it will also not work. That's all a question of personal motivation (will power) it has nothing to do with anyone but yourself. Exact. I cannot lend my personal willpower to someone else so that bugs will be fixed. I'm happy to see that you got it at the first attempt. quote: I would suggest congeniality is somewhat of a symbiotic interaction. It will not matter how congenial the atmosphere is if you simply don't want to be part of it. Which is why developers should be "congenial" to paying customers, and not the other way around. But, as I often say, maybe it's just me. However, if you realy want more "congeniality", fix the bugs. I assure you that this will make a lot people a lot more "congenial" overnight. Well, maybe not the dudes working on "Red Pill", but everybody else will. Jeez sorry this has turned into such a thing although I'm glad you're spending time explaining that to everyone[:D] I don't see anything recent that leads me to think the devs or publishers have been not congenial with you or Herman. Fact I see a whole lot of patience on their part including alot of putting their heads down, taking a bunch of cheapshots and trying to move the game ahead. This would be beyond that fact that beating on them has yet to yield a positive result yet. Anyways hope you're able to work all this out Vinnie. I'd suggest playing the game, or building a scenario or something. Might shift your perspective from trying to master the forum to the actual game.

Vincenzo_Beretta -> RE: Any news on MP'er with Harpoon ANW 3.10? (10/17/2010 12:52:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mikmyk I don't see anything recent that leads me to think the devs or publishers have been not congenial with you or Herman. More than that: recently you don't see Herman at all... [8\|] quote: Fact I see a whole lot of patience on their part "Patience" is inherent in bugfixing when you talk about Harpoon. quote: including alot of putting their heads down, taking a bunch of cheapshots and trying to move the game ahead. It comes with getting the money, you know: it is one of the perks. quote: This would be beyond that fact that beating on them has yet to yield a positive result yet. Alas...

mikmykWS -> RE: Any news on MP'er with Harpoon ANW 3.10? (10/17/2010 1:37:38 AM)
quote: Thank you Vinnie I think we've kind of beat this subject to death and my first question was pretty much answered. Gonna spend tonight building a scenario.

Bucks -> RE: Any news on MP'er with Harpoon ANW 3.10? (10/17/2010 4:21:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mikmyk and why is that Ralf. If there has really been a couple of hundred games played why is the developer still talking about help with testing. The community needs to be a little more interested in being honest about whats going on then self promotional. So maybe there might be a bug report/AAR or something tangible coming out of South America tonight other than rumours. Just saying... Mike, I do just about all my testing using the MP game type. That way the game plays itself and it's not a great technical feat to set it up to run in "loopback" mode. I started doing this to take out the human factor where I might have inadvertently interfered with something. By running a scenario in MP I'm nothing more than a spectator with zero ability to influence what's happening. This is also a good way to test new scenarios since you are able to check mission performance, timings and literally anything a scenario designer asks of the units he's included in the scen. It's also a great way to check your alternate starting locations and the effect they will have on a scenario, as the Scenario Editor doesn't use these in editing mode. Setting up MP on your own PC is relatively easy. Bring up a command prompt and type in "ipconfig". You will then have your computer's own IP address and you enter that into the ANW Launcher instead of the server you'd normally join. Start the Server component first and then the client and load the scenario you wish to test. Note: This does not mean you're running a server for others to use, it's just a way to make use of the MP capability for game testing or scenario design testing. So Mike I use it often but maybe not as intended. [:)] Cheers Darren

TonyE -> RE: Any news on MP'er with Harpoon ANW 3.10? (10/17/2010 6:11:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bucks Thx Freek, In light of that, I'd like to ask Tony if "lag" upsets the way a MP game behaves itself? I've mentioned in the past my "obsession" with Counter Strike Source and almost without exception MP servers will have a 200 millisecond "lag or latency" limit. Meaning that, if you're lagging more than 0.2 of a second the server will kick you... I've just checked the South American CS Source servers and with approximately two dozen servers showing up, I have latency times of between 453 milliseconds and 1936 milliseconds (almost 2 seconds!!!). I'm not a tech, but I doubt an ANW MP server will function as intended if one player is lagging 2 full seconds behind the current game time? I mean you only have to miss a server "update cycle" once and you can be dropped. Tony, do you have any thoughts on this based on your extensive experience running MP games for ANW? Cheers Darren My experience is that latency does not affect ANW MP games, certainly not latency in the hundreds of milliseconds. ANW didn't seem to handle dropped packets well (i.e. the ISP connection blipping and dropping more than a couple of game packets). Bandwidth was the bigger problem, the game at that time had a hard timeout to get the second of game time data to the client (it started at 30 seconds when I was running servers and I believe Russell increased that limit before I pretty much gave it up). With the larger scenarios it just took too long to send the game data and at a minimum the slow client would be dropped.

mikmykWS -> RE: Any news on MP'er with Harpoon ANW 3.10? (10/17/2010 1:31:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bucks Mike, I do just about all my testing using the MP game type. That way the game plays itself and it's not a great technical feat to set it up to run in "loopback" mode. I started doing this to take out the human factor where I might have inadvertently interfered with something. By running a scenario in MP I'm nothing more than a spectator with zero ability to influence what's happening. This is also a good way to test new scenarios since you are able to check mission performance, timings and literally anything a scenario designer asks of the units he's included in the scen. It's also a great way to check your alternate starting locations and the effect they will have on a scenario, as the Scenario Editor doesn't use these in editing mode. Setting up MP on your own PC is relatively easy. Bring up a command prompt and type in "ipconfig". You will then have your computer's own IP address and you enter that into the ANW Launcher instead of the server you'd normally join. Start the Server component first and then the client and load the scenario you wish to test. Note: This does not mean you're running a server for others to use, it's just a way to make use of the MP capability for game testing or scenario design testing. So Mike I use it often but maybe not as intended. [:)] Cheers Darren Well that's good to hear Darren. I was on team that originally tested multiplayer up until Harpoon 3.7 and have a good recollection of how it worked. My day job also lends itself to knowing about it as well. I've never used it to test scenarios though but think its a great idea. My point is if you guys are using it to test every scenario and playing hundreds of games why was is Don still asking for testing/help and saying that more interest needs to be generated to work on it further? Sorry to say my bs-o-meter is ringing off the charts with this one as something is not exactly on the up and up around here... Anyways.. thanks again for the things you have done too help move the game forward. I look forward to the next release and hope the good times come back with it. For now I'm outta this snakepit[;)]

Bucks -> RE: Any news on MP'er with Harpoon ANW 3.10? (10/17/2010 4:53:26 PM)
Mike, I think Don would like more testing of the "real thing". By that I mean people playing each other over the net rather than myself simply testing scenario performance through my network card. I don't think it matters how many times I run my server/client setup here, unless people are actually playing each other issues with, connectivity, ease of operation and any bugs that simply wont show up when I'm using it in "loopback" mode. Tony's hinted at what the main issue is and that looks like the size of the scenario and the data transmission required to keep everyone connected. Now I suppose we need to look at scenario size/complexity and attempt to develop some guidelines so people can play MP trouble free. Sorry I'm no Tech, just looking at reasons why the problems exist and what we can do about them. Cheers Darren

mikmykWS -> RE: Any news on MP'er with Harpoon ANW 3.10? (10/17/2010 6:53:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bucks Mike, I think Don would like more testing of the "real thing". By that I mean people playing each other over the net rather than myself simply testing scenario performance through my network card. I don't think it matters how many times I run my server/client setup here, unless people are actually playing each other issues with, connectivity, ease of operation and any bugs that simply wont show up when I'm using it in "loopback" mode. Tony's hinted at what the main issue is and that looks like the size of the scenario and the data transmission required to keep everyone connected. Now I suppose we need to look at scenario size/complexity and attempt to develop some guidelines so people can play MP trouble free. Sorry I'm no Tech, just looking at reasons why the problems exist and what we can do about them. Cheers Darren Great! Develop some guidelines, make some posts, do whatever you need to do Darren. I'll cya when there's a good scenario, game and time around[:)]

mikmykWS -> RE: Any news on MP'er with Harpoon ANW 3.10? (10/17/2010 8:40:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: koelbach Hi Mike, I think there is no snakepit any longer [:)] The forum improves, guys are coming back. Hope so my old friend. Till then...adios.

cuthbo2001 -> RE: Any news on MP'er with Harpoon ANW 3.10? (10/18/2010 8:57:44 PM)
Darren don't want to put a damper on things . I can see a lot of effort going into sorting MP. However how certain are people that harpooners will use MP in significant numbers. It would be a shame to see all that effort going into something only a few have the desire to use

Bucks -> RE: Any news on MP'er with Harpoon ANW 3.10? (10/19/2010 4:18:07 AM)
cuthbo2001, I'm in agreement with you completely. Unfortunately just about every time I've approached the forum in the past about what people would like I get few responses or none at all. My hope would be to see MP used as part of a larger project such as a Campaign game with multiple players per side. A few of us had attempted to get this type of PBEM game running at the time of the Interfet action in East Timor circa 1999, although with no MP functionality that, was going to be a hard ask... I think that would be its most useful application, although maybe MP is something the Professional users will probably take up well before most of us. Then again, without feedback my mind-reading skills aren't what they used to be... Thanks for the contribution to the discussion, I'll take it on board and assure you MP wasn't something I had anywhere near the top of the "to do" list right now. Cheers Darren

cuthbo2001 -> RE: Any news on MP'er with Harpoon ANW 3.10? (10/19/2010 8:12:04 PM)
Darren to be honest I have been using harpoon for a long time all the way back to floppy discs on the Amiga.All the fracas that has in the past gone on here , just hacks me off and I want no part of it. I run a naval section of cadets in my school and looked to buy and install several copies of harpoon for use of my cadets. Unfortunately our IT Guy said there were technical difficulties. However if these could be overcome I would use the MP capability within the section. However as you say I may be in a minority of one, as for my own use harpoon is a quick fix for me between work and other activities. I can't imagine many oportunities to organise time to meet up for an online game Jim

Little Beavers -> RE: Any news on MP'er with Harpoon ANW 3.10? (10/19/2010 9:11:44 PM)
I'd like to see more multiple player co-operative scenarios. The head to head stuff is pretty good but the real team work happens when you get groups of people work together on the same side. It would be neat if players could handle different departments, like one guy for ASW, another for AAW, etc... Another idea would be a group of subs working together towards a similar objective. Each player would command a sub....

Bucks -> RE: Any news on MP'er with Harpoon ANW 3.10? (10/20/2010 10:22:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cuthbo2001 Darren to be honest I have been using harpoon for a long time all the way back to floppy discs on the Amiga.All the fracas that has in the past gone on here , just hacks me off and I want no part of it. I run a naval section of cadets in my school and looked to buy and install several copies of harpoon for use of my cadets. Unfortunately our IT Guy said there were technical difficulties. However if these could be overcome I would use the MP capability within the section. However as you say I may be in a minority of one, as for my own use harpoon is a quick fix for me between work and other activities. I can't imagine many opportunities to organise time to meet up for an online game Jim Jim, As we say Downunder, mate you're not on your "Pat Malone" (alone) when it comes to the fracas. It's always gotten the better of me as I came from a Minis background while you were playing on the Amiga, so I tend to get irritated by people claiming this and that without much understanding of what I'll say is the "theory" behind the gaming system. Anyway enough said about the past. I'm happy to hear of your intentions Jim. As I said I'm not the most technically minded. Seems like you'd really need to get in touch with Don Gilman or Russell. You may find the issues might be addressed, especially if they were to lead to greater overall functionality of the Multi-Player version of the game. Ideally the "quick fix" attitude you mentioned would solve a lot of the participation issues I believe. I can "host" a server on this machine and run the client for testing, I've mentioned that previously. Both are simply running through my network card with nothing special in the hardware department here. If people looking for a "quick fix" on-line game, were able to host a game (i.e. host the server) & run the client for active play against a human player simultaneously. The only thing missing is let's call it an "Active Game Browser" program that, allows you to see who's up for a game and get connected. In a similar way to the Harpoon Media Viewer (in game button click calls a windows program) that, eliminates the "dumb server" to a single machine hosting availability status and invisible connection data centrally. Button for host, button for join/start and a chat connection like we have already on our machines. Players connect directly to each other, you could even run some stats or a ladder etc off the central server for the competitive amongst us. Apologies for the rambling, I'm trying through some ideas out at people and see what everyone's opinion is. The more constructive discussion the better. On the serious use in your Class Jim, if you haven't tried to contact Don and Russell, I'd attempt to see if those IT "technical difficulties" couldn't be addressed. If you are able to use ANW as a learning tool, it has to be good for the Sim's future as it exposes it to a wider audience. Thanks Darren

FreekS -> RE: Any news on MP'er with Harpoon ANW 3.10? (10/20/2010 6:02:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Little Beavers I'd like to see more multiple player co-operative scenarios.� The head to head stuff is pretty good but the real team work happens when you get groups of people work together on the same side.� Carrier Exercises is a (up to) four player scenario which is a little large but allows four small carrier battlegroups to combat each other, form alliances (and break them). Its been played several times though proved to be too big for stable MP play (which is a pity as I developed it for that). quote: ORIGINAL: Little Beavers Another idea would be a group of subs working together towards a similar objective. Each player would command a sub.... One scenario that has been MP-ed very often is "Shadow the Boomer". It features three sides, each with one or two subs (US, UK and Russia). In addition there is a AI-controlled Russian ASW side that will attack any subs it detects and generaly make life hard on all players. The mission is for UK and US to shadow a Russian boomer in the Barentz sea. Its nice to play as it is not too long and there are several MP-AARs out there for it. I'm sure you can play it if you want. Some good Head to head MP scens are (IMO), Dawn patrol Pebble Island Hemphills ordeal Advance Guards North Cape Power Sweep Matrix Siege Matrix Lance Matrix Shield All of these have played very well.

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