This absolutely s**ks...... (Full Version)

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GBS -> This absolutely s**ks...... (8/20/2002 12:18:33 AM)

.....that we can't at least order our air groups to at least seak out( at their last known position) enemy TF's to attack. I've complained about this in the past. There's a JAP Carrier TF parked 60 miles off GILI, within 10 hexes of PM that is having a field day sinking every ship within flying distance and bombing the troops on the ground at Gili with impunity. I have 363 planes at PM, most LB's and dive bombers all set to naval attack. And what do they do? They fly all the way up to Madang and Finschafen and even to Rabaul to go after one DD. The common answer has been "well that the way it was early in the war" or " the Japs were just that much better than us early on." Well, I'm throwing the BS flag on this one. This is senario 17 and I intend to quit this one and try another. I mean they sunk almost 20 ships ( APS, AKs, and DDs) in two days and didn't even move. I didn't attempt one attact out of PM.



zed -> (8/20/2002 12:30:46 AM)

I have noticed, as others have, that the first thing spotted is what is attacked. Disasters certainly happen, and happen to me as well. I am not sure how level bombers would have faired even if they had made it. If carriers are about, set "retire allowed" , this will save your skin in more than one occasion. If they are sitting there, bring your subs in on them, or set a surface fleet after them from Moresby. There are ways to counter this type of thing. Where are your carriers? If both sides have carriers in keeps each other honest, ie, the worry of being caught attacking shipping while the enemy carriers are attacking you is too great for most players.

Good Luck.



Wilhammer -> (8/20/2002 2:07:16 AM)

Are you sure about this "first thing seen is first priority"?

It should determine reaction by threat, not by first spotted.

=====================================

Now, how to beat this and slip your carriers or whatever through?

Clouds of AUX craft or PTs/Barges would do the trick if spotting order determines target priority.



dtx -> Play balance, History & Wargame design (8/20/2002 2:19:56 AM)

If the player is given too much control over the targeting of aircraft, it would likely be too short of a game (everything would be sunk within the 1st few months). Also, war is a exercise in confusion - planes are sent out to the wrong targets or non-existent targets or are sent out to the right targets, but hit the wrong targets. UV gives the player some control, but also adds Murphy's law, which makes it realistic.

Also, a well-designed wargame should punish a player for using poor tactics (i.e., sending transports into harms way without sufficient air cover). Hence, in doing this Matrix makes the game outcome more historical.

Designing a wargame like UV to last hundreds of days requires a delicate balance of lethality, survivability, and action & inaction. Too much action or lethality will eliminate high value targets too early in the game. Too little lethality irritates players and offers other problems. If Matrix were to allow more control on attacking TFs, they would have to reduce the lethality of the weapons, increase the numbers of "failed to local target" or increase the fog of war.



Black Cat -> Re: This absolutely s**ks...... (8/20/2002 3:16:28 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by GBS
[B].....that we can't at least order our air groups to at least seak out( at their last known position) enemy TF's to attack. I've complained about this in the past. There's a JAP Carrier TF parked 60 miles off GILI, within 10 hexes of PM that is having a field day sinking every ship within flying distance and bombing the troops on the ground at Gili with impunity. I have 363 planes at PM, most LB's and dive bombers all set to naval attack. And what do they do? They fly all the way up to Madang and Finschafen and even to Rabaul to go after one DD. The common answer has been "well that the way it was early in the war" or " the Japs were just that much better than us early on." Well, I'm throwing That` stough the BS flag on this one. This is senario 17 and I intend to quit this one and try another. I mean they sunk almost 20 ships ( APS, AKs, and DDs) in two days and didn't even move. I didn't attempt one attact out of PM. [/B][/QUOTE]

I have never seen the PM LBA attack a CV TF East of Hex 18.41.

Yes, it says that normal range is 11 - 12 depending on AC type, and extended is 14 but they never do it.

In any case without escorts they would just be slaughtered by the Zeros and accomplish nothing, maybe I`m giving the Game too much credit here ( then again maybe not ) but that`s why they don`t go against the distant CV`s IMO....

When they zip up to Madang it`a always against transport TF`s you`ll notice.

With all due respect I think you need to try different tactics unless you have lost all your CV `s in which case a restart is the better part of (Uncommon) Valor IMO.....



GBS -> (8/20/2002 3:54:37 AM)

Black Cat, Thanks for your comments and your're probably correct in that I need to sharpen my tactics a bit. It seems to me from reading these posts that the only sane tactic for US carriers is to turn and run at the first sign of Jap carriers. Is this accurate. Well I had a carrier TF (2CV's) parked 5 hexes below Gili. to provide air cover for the Transports delivering troops and supplies there. Of Course I had it set for do not react and retirement allowed as i had lost two carriers earlier in the campaign.(the JAPs didn't receive a scratch). Well they took off at sight of the J carriers and left the AP's in port unattended. The Japs just sat there and sunk 8 ap's and 2 DD's. I know as do you I'm sure that if I as much a stick my nose north of Gili That Rebaul throws everything but the kitchen sink at me. It just seems that the AI is slanted unfairly toward the IJN. How in hell did we win that War anyway?



teck -> (8/20/2002 4:20:50 AM)

My problem with the air units at PM they never can detect a IJN bombarment group heading their way. That is with 2 PBY units on search mode



Black Cat -> (8/20/2002 4:49:36 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by GBS
[B]Black Cat, Thanks for your comments and your're probably correct in that I need to sharpen my tactics a bit. It seems to me from reading these posts that the only sane tactic for US carriers is to turn and run at the first sign of Jap carriers. Is this accurate. Well I had a carrier TF (2CV's) parked 5 hexes below Gili. to provide air cover for the Transports delivering troops and supplies there. Of Course I had it set for do not react and retirement allowed as i had lost two carriers earlier in the campaign.(the JAPs didn't receive a scratch). Well they took off at sight of the J carriers and left the AP's in port unattended. The Japs just sat there and sunk 8 ap's and 2 DD's. I know as do you I'm sure that if I as much a stick my nose north of Gili That Rebaul throws everything but the kitchen sink at me. It just seems that the AI is slanted unfairly toward the IJN. How in hell did we win that War anyway? [/B][/QUOTE]

I always set my CV TF`s at Do Not React & Do Not Retire and micromanage them. ( note: a high level leader will sometimes react anyway ) Your subs can be used to "push" the Japanese CV`s around, they will move away from them.

The Japanese CV`s usually will not have replenishment TF`s around, if it`s 2 vs 2 and they have been doing many missions over time you can consider trying an attack after you replensh you CV`s, they may have low action points VS your high.

Try to coordinate a B-17 strike from PM with the CV attack, may split up their CAP....hard to do but...

You can also have your CV`s " trail their coat" so to say South and West of Gili Gili, staying just out of range of the Japanese and with all fighters set to CAP to sucker them South and into range of the PM Air, worked once, and was great !! sunk 3 CV`s and lost 0 , usually they just sail home after awhile.

If you do attack try and close the range to 3 hexs so your short range fighters escort and the SBD`s have 1000 lbs`s. It is though a crap shoot, I think the default morale & experience ratings for the Japanese ( especially the Naval Air Crews ) are too high across the board, which is why I did a modified Scenario #17 using the editor.

More: _always_ have a replenishment TF near the CV`s. I keep 3 AO`s + escort in Townsland to refuel units near PM.

There will usually be Japanese Subs around Gili Gili, unwise to keep your CV`s sitting in one Hex.

The other PM / Lunga Strategy is to wait for the P-38`s with their long range to show up, they will equalize the Zeros to a large degree....and don`t garrison Gili Gili., it`s a Death Trap for the Japanese Army if they take it.

Buna ( built up to a large Airbase to take the LBA Bombers and long range fighters ) and Lae are a better Axis of Advance IMO in the SWPac..they will interdict a large area.

The strategy for the US is to slowly push them back in small steps, building up overwhelming power in LBA to support the next small step.

I`m sure others have useful ideas as well, stay with it, it can be done.



Supervisor -> (8/20/2002 5:05:42 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Black Cat
[B]

I always set my CV TF`s at Do Not React & Do Not Retire and micromanage them. ( note: a high level leader will sometimes react anyway ) Your subs can be used to "push" the Japanese CV`s around, they will move away from them.

The Japanese CV`s usually will not have replenishment TF`s around, if it`s 2 vs 2 and they have been doing many missions over time you can consider trying an attack after you replensh you CV`s, they may have low action points VS your high.

Try to coordinate a B-17 strike from PM with the CV attack, may split up their CAP....hard to do but...

You can also have your CV`s " trail their coat" so to say South and West of Gili Gili, staying just out of range of the Japanese and with all fighters set to CAP to sucker them South and into range of the PM Air, worked once, and was great !! sunk 3 CV`s and lost 0 , usually they just sail home after awhile.

If you do attack try and close the range to 3 hexs so your short range fighters escort and the SBD`s have 1000 lbs`s. It is though a crap shoot, I think the default morale & experience ratings for the Japanese ( especially the Naval Air Crews ) are too high across the board, which is why I did a modified Scenario #17 using the editor.

More: _always_ have a replenishment TF near the CV`s. I keep 3 AO`s + escort in Townsland to refuel units near PM.

The other PM / Lunga Strategy is to wait for the P-38`s with their long range to show up, they will equalize the Zeros to a large degree....and don`t garrison Gili Gili., it`s a Death Trap for the Japanese Army if they take it.

Buna ( built up to a large Airbase to take the LBA Bombers and long range fighters ) and Lae are a better Axis of Advance IMO in the SWPac..they will interdict a large area.

The strategy for the US is to slowly push them back in small steps, building up overwhelming power in LBA to support the next small step.

I`m sure others have useful ideas as well, stay with it, it can be done. [/B][/QUOTE]As additional insurance, you might want to make sure your CV TFs have the nearest, safe port as homebase. This way a heavily damaged CV won't limp out of its way towards Noumea and possibly away from the nearest harbor.



mogami -> How to bag IJN CV (8/20/2002 9:30:04 AM)

Greetings. First keep USN CV in port till after their fighter groups grow to full strength.
2nd Keep track of hexes the AI likes to park on and deploy subs there.
3rd. Insure there are plenty of fighters to escort LB bombers. These groups may not attack if there are not enough fighters for escort. Set fighter groups that have the range to 0 cap to place 100 percent on escort.

Make sure the leader in command of your CV TF is a good one.

Use CA float planes to search saving the SBD's for the strike, I can not prove this but I think I have seen a trend for CV TF to launch strikes at targets "Their" search finds even if LB scouts spot another target. (This method is really effective when using the IJN since they have float plane tenders that can share the same hex as your CV's)


Set up the battle by being within torpedo plane range, this sadly allows the IJN a counter strike but your strike is more effective when both torpedo planes and dive bombers take part. (The IJN once again can achive this this without allowing a effective counter since their torpedo planes have longer range.)

Don't let the battle take place without your wanting it to!!!!!



GBS -> (8/20/2002 9:56:13 AM)

Wow. Thanks for all the replys guys. Is this game great or what?



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