DaBabes AAA Facelift (Full Version)

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JWE -> DaBabes AAA Facelift (10/25/2010 9:07:56 PM)

Well, we dinked with everything else, so why not AAA. Seems one of the Babes Bros (witpqs, if you must know) was thinking AAA was looking a bit puny, especially compared to A-2-A losses. So we built a test bed, ran a Demming series, and found - yeah, AAA could use some upper body reps at the gym. While we were at it, looked at relativity between all the AAA automatic weapons (AAMGs, AA Auto-Weaps). Woof! Lotta room to move around in.

Ok, so dinking with the "Effect" parameter, found some good, relative, "effectiveness" values for all those things. Ya get the "projectile" weight for each, and express it as a ratio to the Japanese 25mm (obviously becomes 1.0 for the math). Kinda the same thing for explosive fill weight for the explosive rounds (again, the Japanese 25mm was 1.0), but with some SQRTs as rounds get bigger and bigger.

Then define a weight equivalent and fill equivalent for every round. For AAMGs that don't have fill, it's easy. For mid size rounds (20mm and such) it's (2x weight + 1x fill)/3, for biggies (40mm) it's (1x weight + 2x fill)/3. That defines the "k" for each gun. Then multiply "k" by the "actual/practical" RoF for each gun and poof - the effectiveness of a AAA automatic weapon, in terms of how much nastiness it could stream out at an incoming airplane.

Line 'em all up and ya got it, but to make them fit, you have to multiply by 'something'. We picked 2.

Reran the tests, and Whoa Nellie. Things are looking very, very nice. Ya still can't get grossly gnarly in '44/'45, so the shrieking "historical results everywhen" people will still have something to whine about (yes, we try to accommodate them, too), but all in all, it looks sweet. Now, this is just the AAA automatic weapons. So it will have a big impact on DBs and TBs (and Netties and kamis) on their final runs. Doesn't look at DP guns, because there is an intersection there with Nav Guns and Surf Combat. But that's the subject of the next post. We got a bit "Abby Normal" with that particular Frankenstein monster, too.

Till then; ta ta.

Ciao. John



Zigurat666 -> RE: DaBabes AAA Facelift (10/25/2010 9:53:14 PM)

Just curios since I dont usually follow the modding stuff,but does any of the Babes mods (or any mods for that matter)ever get carried over to patches for regular AE? Just asking because AA which in my opinion is non-existent in the regular game could probably benefit from these types of things.



JWE -> RE: DaBabes AAA Facelift (10/25/2010 10:14:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zigurat666
Just curios since I dont usually follow the modding stuff,but does any of the Babes mods (or any mods for that matter)ever get carried over to patches for regular AE? Just asking because AA which in my opinion is non-existent in the regular game could probably benefit from these types of things.

Yes, DaBabes does get carried over eventually.

DaBabes can introduce things that stock may not be able to accommodate, at the time, because stock must be directed to a wider general gaming public, while DaBabes can be developmental (sub split-tubes, for example). We try, oh so very hard, to keep DaBabes within the game code constraints, so it's become almost a development tool. So if it's something that may, or may not, qualify for a stock revision, we'll dink with it in DaBabes (if it is appropriate) and let the daBabes testers run it.



Buck Beach -> RE: DaBabes AAA Facelift (10/25/2010 10:54:04 PM)

Let us know when we can download something.

Buck

BTW a little bird told me they felt there was something off with the air model (air craft data) as to the air to air combat. Not really versed in the subject but is there anything in the wind tweaking that?

Buck



JWE -> RE: DaBabes AAA Facelift (10/25/2010 11:51:18 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Buck Beach
BTW a little bird told me they felt there was something off with the air model (air craft data) as to the air to air combat. Not really versed in the subject but is there anything in the wind tweaking that?

Buck

Don't do A-2-A, not smart enough. The smart people think it's running ok, so your little bird is likely tweeting in the woods.



Buck Beach -> RE: DaBabes AAA Facelift (10/25/2010 11:59:51 PM)

And he will read it here.

Buck



witpqs -> RE: DaBabes AAA Facelift (10/26/2010 3:26:27 AM)

Fantastic!

I'll look to start another PBM when the beauty is released.

[sm=00000280.gif]



witpqs -> RE: DaBabes AAA Facelift (10/26/2010 3:28:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Buck Beach

BTW a little bird told me they felt there was something off with the air model (air craft data) as to the air to air combat. Not really versed in the subject but is there anything in the wind tweaking that?

Buck


Buck, I wonder if you are thinking of the change to the air model that Elf talked about where fighter altitude assignments will be determined automatically (no longer by the player)? Supposedly that would be next patch, and I assume it would apply to any mod.



oldman45 -> RE: DaBabes AAA Facelift (10/26/2010 6:56:59 AM)

JWE, do you think these tweaks to the AAA model will help with the Kamikaze issue? The little buggers are getting pretty good at getting thru CAP and AAA.



Buck Beach -> RE: DaBabes AAA Facelift (10/26/2010 5:25:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

quote:

ORIGINAL: Buck Beach

BTW a little bird told me they felt there was something off with the air model (air craft data) as to the air to air combat. Not really versed in the subject but is there anything in the wind tweaking that?

Buck


Buck, I wonder if you are thinking of the change to the air model that Elf talked about where fighter altitude assignments will be determined automatically (no longer by the player)? Supposedly that would be next patch, and I assume it would apply to any mod.


I think it had to do with aircraft ground losses, but, like JWE, I also don't do or know that world, I'm too busy with never ending ship tweaks.



jds1978 -> RE: DaBabes AAA Facelift (10/26/2010 8:59:11 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: oldman45

JWE, do you think these tweaks to the AAA model will help with the Kamikaze issue? The little buggers are getting pretty good at getting thru CAP and AAA.



OT: Spruance was losing a major combat vessel a day off Okinawa, so this seems historic. The Kamikaze groups were being destroyed, but leakers always got through



witpqs -> RE: DaBabes AAA Facelift (10/26/2010 9:41:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jds1978


quote:

ORIGINAL: oldman45

JWE, do you think these tweaks to the AAA model will help with the Kamikaze issue? The little buggers are getting pretty good at getting thru CAP and AAA.



OT: Spruance was losing a major combat vessel a day off Okinawa, so this seems historic. The Kamikaze groups were being destroyed, but leakers always got through


As I recall Nimitz being quoted in his bio, it was "a ship a day", so I believe that counted DE's, DD's, and so on.



oldman45 -> RE: DaBabes AAA Facelift (10/26/2010 10:01:54 PM)

Put in that perspective, I can deal with that. Thanks



Sardaukar -> RE: DaBabes AAA Facelift (10/27/2010 6:43:44 AM)

Great news!

Since I am one of the "Historical capabilities NOW!™ "-crowd, I am happy. [:D]

As related question, did you guys tinker with the issue (or non-issue maybe) of ships running out of AAA ammo very quickly?



Pascal_slith -> RE: DaBabes AAA Facelift (10/27/2010 6:53:28 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

Great news!

Since I am one of the "Historical capabilities NOW!™ "-crowd, I am happy. [:D]

As related question, did you guys tinker with the issue (or non-issue maybe) of ships running out of AAA ammo very quickly?


I'm with Sardaukar on the limited AAA ammo issue.

Unfortunately, there also are no detailed training level rating breakdowns for ships crews (gunnery ShiptoShip, gunnery ShiptoShore, ASW, Damage Control, AAA gunnery, Surf Radar, Air Radar, etc. etc.). The pilot system was expanded. Why not ship crews? (Or for that matter LCU's)...

Of course this obviously would mean some major code expansions.....hell, if I win the lottery I'll finance it [:D]



castor troy -> RE: DaBabes AAA Facelift (10/27/2010 7:32:51 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zigurat666

Just curios since I dont usually follow the modding stuff,but does any of the Babes mods (or any mods for that matter)ever get carried over to patches for regular AE? Just asking because AA which in my opinion is non-existent in the regular game could probably benefit from these types of things.



that would be great, have read about some nice things in this mod that seem to be quite a step forward.



castor troy -> RE: DaBabes AAA Facelift (10/27/2010 7:35:34 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jds1978


quote:

ORIGINAL: oldman45

JWE, do you think these tweaks to the AAA model will help with the Kamikaze issue? The little buggers are getting pretty good at getting thru CAP and AAA.



OT: Spruance was losing a major combat vessel a day off Okinawa, so this seems historic. The Kamikaze groups were being destroyed, but leakers always got through



"lost" doesn´t mean sunk I guess or do you want to imply that every day something like a CA, CV, BB was sunk?



Nomad -> RE: DaBabes AAA Facelift (10/27/2010 2:10:34 PM)

Does this mean that those of us that started games early get hosed on the AA? [:D][:'(]



oldman45 -> RE: DaBabes AAA Facelift (10/27/2010 7:43:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy


quote:

ORIGINAL: jds1978


quote:

ORIGINAL: oldman45

JWE, do you think these tweaks to the AAA model will help with the Kamikaze issue? The little buggers are getting pretty good at getting thru CAP and AAA.



OT: Spruance was losing a major combat vessel a day off Okinawa, so this seems historic. The Kamikaze groups were being destroyed, but leakers always got through



"lost" doesn´t mean sunk I guess or do you want to imply that every day something like a CA, CV, BB was sunk?


I think Witpqs cleared that up.



vonTirpitz -> RE: DaBabes AAA Facelift (10/27/2010 10:48:28 PM)

I certainly hope that most of the Babes changes can be integrated into current games. I just don't remember what changes can or cannot be introduced into ongoing games...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nomad

Does this mean that those of us that started games early get hosed on the AA? [:D][:'(]



mike scholl 1 -> RE: DaBabes AAA Facelift (10/28/2010 12:37:39 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

As I recall Nimitz being quoted in his bio, it was "a ship a day", so I believe that counted DE's, DD's, and so on.



This was an amphibious landing, so an APA, AKA, or even an LST would also be a "combat vessel".



JWE -> RE: DaBabes AAA Facelift (10/28/2010 2:33:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar
As related question, did you guys tinker with the issue (or non-issue maybe) of ships running out of AAA ammo very quickly?

Didn't tinker because I couldn't see what ya'll are seeing. This is what the Test-TF ammo looks like after a day of air attack. An average of 250 sorties flown against a 10 ship TF (2x SoDaks, 3x Clevelands, 5x Fletchers, all pretty hefty late 43 models). Air attacks were morning and afternoon, 4x airgroups, splitting into roughly 40 flights. 20 of the 40 got chewed on twice because they came in at altitude, so there was ‘technically’ 60 flights getting shot at by some ship or other, at some time or other.

But at the end of the day, everybody still had a good chunk of their ammo left (about 80%). This was the same over 180 test runs. Only the DP guns get caught a bit short. That’s because they get kinda-sorta two shots at some things. They have the ceiling to whack a plane at approach altitude, where a Bofors or an Oerlikon don’t. Once planes are in the attack profile, everybody, including the DPs, gets to have fun.

I think there’s other things that may be going on with ammo that might help cause that “empty feeling”. But I really don’t think it’s AAA per se.


[image]local://upfiles/17451/13474229168E43A1AD0C8AF7A6C76C3E.jpg[/image]



witpqs -> RE: DaBabes AAA Facelift (10/28/2010 2:41:12 PM)

It's an extreme example, but if you do want a look at one see the save game I put in the tech support thread.

Any how the improvement in AA looks great - when do you plan to kick it out of the nest?



Sardaukar -> RE: DaBabes AAA Facelift (10/28/2010 4:47:46 PM)

Yep, sounds good! [8D]



JWE -> RE: DaBabes AAA Facelift (10/28/2010 6:38:41 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: vonTirpitz
I certainly hope that most of the Babes changes can be integrated into current games. I just don't remember what changes can or cannot be introduced into ongoing games...

I think some of them can be. Here's what michaelm says about it.
quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelm
You can add some database changes to games in play but not all as something are determined and created at the start based on the data in the scenario.
IIRC, I caused issues when I mistakenly included ship changes in the update.

This is the items that I believe can be added to a game in play.
2. Device Changes 3. Aircraft Changes 4. TO&E Changes (these will only take effect when a unit gets to its next TO&E upgrade point)5. Class changes

From 1.00.84 WhatsNew file

Also this applies to any scenario updates, not just the official ones.
The game compares the save against the current scenario tables and reports if an update is possible.




Bradley7735 -> RE: DaBabes AAA Facelift (11/18/2010 3:17:10 AM)

Please don't take this as criticism. I'm just posting an observation from my Babes Lite game as allies vs AI.

I had a Balao class sub action surface on an xAKL. It took 45 hits (mostly .50 cal, but a couple of 5") to sink it. I was pretty happy with the encounter.

Anyway, I looked at the sunk ships screen at the end of the turn and it says sunk by device "40mm......." (It's device 1539)

I assumed it would say sunk by "5"25/10....." (device 1579, I think)

I noticed that the effect on the 40mm is more than the effect on the 5", due to the AAA tweaks. I believe sunk ships just use the largest effect device that hit them.

I think the hit ratio of .50cal, 20mm, 40mm, and 5" seemed good. I didn't see mass hits of 40mm over the 5". It was around 50% .50cal, 20% 20mm and 20% 40mm and about 10% 5".

Anyway, I love the AAA tweak in my game. I'm seeing similar results that Oldman is seeing. It feels right. I just thought you'd be interested in my observation re the sunk ship screen.



witpqs -> RE: DaBabes AAA Facelift (11/18/2010 3:54:49 AM)

Are you sure about what weapon shows up on the sunk ships list? Might it just be the last weapon to hit? I don't actually know, this is a query not a challenge.



Bradley7735 -> RE: DaBabes AAA Facelift (11/18/2010 4:41:49 AM)

I'm not 100% sure of what decides the "sunk by" weapon. I'm mostly sure it's the effect. I have seen ships damaged via subs, go to port, and sink due to 500lb bombs from plane port attack. the "sunk by" is usually the torpedo, not the bomb.

I think the largest weapon that has ever hit the ship is what is listed. I've seen some ships hit early in the war, survive, and months later sink to something small, and show the weapon that damaged it months before.

Anyway, this is off topic (slightly) from this AAA thread....




oldman45 -> RE: DaBabes AAA Facelift (11/18/2010 6:42:06 PM)

I have seen some strange results in the ship sunk list and I think its only the last weapon hit that it tracks.



JWE -> RE: DaBabes AAA Facelift (11/18/2010 6:58:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bradley7735
I'm not 100% sure of what decides the "sunk by" weapon.

Me neither. It's a "flagged" value that just pops up. It's not relevant to anything, so there was no reason to look at it.



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