LRCap-.....no idea how to get it to work (Full Version)

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SoliInvictus202 -> LRCap-.....no idea how to get it to work (10/31/2010 12:35:19 PM)

I'd like your oppinion on my current PBEM game - cause it'S really frustrating me and I don't see any way to change it...thanks for your interest and your answers in advance

following situation - I'm playing the Japanese:

I have captured Kendari (AF 4) and Makassar (AF 3):
-Makassar has 1 squadron of 29 Zeroes
-Kendari has 4 Squadrons of Zeroes: 1 with 44, 1 with 12, 2 with 9 (and 2 Bomber squadrons, yet the airfield has no * - so it's not overstacked)

both airfields have plenty of supplies, runways have zero damage, and have plenty of Aviation support as well.....KEndari even has an Airflotilla of which all the units stationed there are a part of

PLAN was to first attack Koepang and then Denpassar with AmphibTFs supported by SCTFs - all protected by LRCap...
I have completely shut down my CAP for a while to make sure that my pilots were rested and that enough planes were ready....


what happened?:

both amphib TFs get chewed up totally by Wildebeests protected by Buffaloes or worse - and not a single Zero was ever in the air to protect it....

what did I do?:
I set the planes on LRCap - some up to 80 %, one even up to 100% on the last day - and gave them a specific TF as a target....
the weather was on the 4 days in question: 2 days of light overcast and 2 days of clear sky....(forecast was better, here the reality)

not a single plane ever made a LRCap over ANY TF.....
not one
results were pretty devastating with most of the AKs and APs sunk and 2 BBs dented..once or more times...


this is consistent with the problem I had from the beginning of this PBEM (much different in my game as Allies and in my games against the AI) - my planes never seem to take off - even if the targets are well within torpedo range - and the weather has clear skies....the bombers stay on the field (always checked aggression of commanders and range/height - etc....)
and a week ago the 44-Zero unit was tasked to sweep Koepang from Kendari - didn't take off for 4 days in a row....then I set it to escort with target "Koepang" as I wanted to attack it with bombers, without the prior sweeps, and what happened?....the bombers took off - got chewed up- and the fighters did nothing....


I believe it's pretty obvious that I'm more than a little frustrated - but what am I doing wrong here? - it can't be mere randomness - cause for 4 days not LRCap out of around 100 planes - and all the other incidents where the planes stayed on the ground - it's simply not plausible anylonger....I could list a whole lot more of these situations....but that's not the point....

I know I'm only a beginner - but I had my movements double checked by someone who's been playing this game for a long time -and he agreed with everything I did...and still it doesn't seem to work at all.....


thanks for your help and suggestions

PS: had all of these ship losses happened with 5 zeroes over my TFs - I would not complain at all - even if it had been 1 out of 100 - I'd have stayed silent...but like this????



War History -> RE: LRCap-.....no idea how to get it to work (10/31/2010 12:44:21 PM)

If you have surface groups escorting, put a handful of float planes on CAP. Just the fact that they are intercepted will ward off a lot of the hits. And if the weather won't let them fly, then you can't get hit either.

There could be other factors as to why your land based CAP didn't fly though. 2 things come to mind: 1) Supply. Do the bases have enough supply to fly? You say this isn't the cause in this case. 2) Drop tanks turned on? If the TF starts in range of the bases that they don't need drop tanks, then they won't switch to "on" when the ships move out of range. This is a case where you would have to manually set it. Koepang is out of range without drop tanks turned on. So barring bad weather over both bases, I suspect this was your problem.



SoliInvictus202 -> RE: LRCap-.....no idea how to get it to work (10/31/2010 12:47:10 PM)

thanks for your answer - however my drop tanks were turned on....always when needed - I even calculated the distance the SCTFs would move to make sure that if drop tanks were needed that they were turned on...

weather by all means shouldn't have been a problem - as my opponent's planes took off - but mine didn't...

I didn't sent the FloatPlanes on CAP - no...but seriously? - with 100 planes to do the job for them?




Itdepends -> RE: LRCap-.....no idea how to get it to work (10/31/2010 12:54:43 PM)

Please note that I'm Rolands opponent in this game- and he's indicated it's ok for me to read (and reply I supose) this thread. If you're reading his AAR please don't give away anything he hasn't already said (in this thread).

Cheers,

Daniel.



SoliInvictus202 -> RE: LRCap-.....no idea how to get it to work (10/31/2010 12:57:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Itdepends

Please note that I'm Rolands opponent in this game- and he's indicated it's ok for me to read (and reply I supose) this thread. If you're reading his AAR please don't give away anything he hasn't already said (in this thread).

Cheers,

Daniel.


haven't updated that for a while, due to time issues.....but thanks ;)



KenchiSulla -> RE: LRCap-.....no idea how to get it to work (10/31/2010 1:05:16 PM)

Check the range of your units... are they set to the range you actually want them to fly out to? I ask this because you seem... to have this problem with all of your units... and I know some people restrict range to 0 when training or providing CAP for a hex



Sredni -> RE: LRCap-.....no idea how to get it to work (10/31/2010 1:08:49 PM)

I read here and there a couple times that land based air have a hard time conducting LRCap over ships at sea, and that even if they find their target there are still penalties in how many aircraft will make it to cap.

But I dunno why with that many planes you didn't get any at all to the ships. When I first took Rangoon I had 9 or 10 fighter groups stationed there that I set to LRCap with droptanks and used them to cap incoming freighter taskforces. They never seemed to put as many planes in the air as normal cap would, but they still always had some planes on top of the ships. I set them the same way I set cap, with 40% set to the LRCap (and target set to the TF) and everything else left blank (0%).

I had the base the same command as the planes, plus an air HQ in place of the same command as well. Planes set to 40% LRCap with the TF as target, I might have also set 20% cap, can't remember (but I probably moved in british hurricanes to conduct separate cap). Alt 20K, 0% rest, drop tanks with range set out to 8 or 9 I think, I only protected them as they came between akyab and rangoon.

I remember fatigue was an issue for these guys. But other then that they shot down some small air raids by betties and sallies I think it was. Never more then 10 or 15 per raid. I don't remember how many fighters I got from these 9 25 plane groups, but it was enough to drive off the raids without any ships hit mostly. A couple TF's a week for a month or so before I moved south with my LCU and cleared airbases that were conducting the raids.



SoliInvictus202 -> RE: LRCap-.....no idea how to get it to work (10/31/2010 1:11:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder

Check the range of your units... are they set to the range you actually want them to fly out to? I ask this because you seem... to have this problem with all of your units... and I know some people restrict range to 0 when training or providing CAP for a hex


nope....I know Denpassar is at the edge of the range of Zeroes...but well within.....and the TFs were attacked at range of 12 - and I had the Zeroes set for 14 with drop tanks...
as with Koepang the days before...it's even closer and the TFs got chewed up around 6 hexes away from Kendari....again the Zeroes had plenty or "reserve" range...

thanks a lot for your answer though



SoliInvictus202 -> RE: LRCap-.....no idea how to get it to work (10/31/2010 1:17:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sredni

I read here and there a couple times that land based air have a hard time conducting LRCap over ships at sea, and that even if they find their target there are still penalties in how many aircraft will make it to cap.

But I dunno why with that many planes you didn't get any at all to the ships. When I first took Rangoon I had 9 or 10 fighter groups stationed there that I set to LRCap with droptanks and used them to cap incoming freighter taskforces. They never seemed to put as many planes in the air as normal cap would, but they still always had some planes on top of the ships. I set them the same way I set cap, with 40% set to the LRCap (and target set to the TF) and everything else left blank (0%).

I had the base the same command as the planes, plus an air HQ in place of the same command as well. Planes set to 40% LRCap with the TF as target, I might have also set 20% cap, can't remember (but I probably moved in british hurricanes to conduct separate cap). Alt 20K, 0% rest, drop tanks with range set out to 8 or 9 I think, I only protected them as they came between akyab and rangoon.

I remember fatigue was an issue for these guys. But other then that they shot down some small air raids by betties and sallies I think it was. Never more then 10 or 15 per raid. I don't remember how many fighters I got from these 9 25 plane groups, but it was enough to drive off the raids without any ships hit mostly. A couple TF's a week for a month or so before I moved south with my LCU and cleared airbases that were conducting the raids.



that's exactly my point - had 5 or even 1 plane been over the targets - I wouldn't have posted - I'd have still lost ships - that's not the problem....the losses are fine - BUT - not the way I suffered them...

if not one plane out of either 100 for the Koepang operation or around 50 for the Denpassar Operation has taken off - then I have a problem....

the Japanese Empire could live with the losses - but if it's just a random thing that happens, and has nothing to do with reality (having been in the army, I know that even Austrian pilots take off on a clear day [8D] - doesn't even have to be elite Japanese) -let's just say I'm a little disappointed....





War History -> RE: LRCap-.....no idea how to get it to work (10/31/2010 1:21:10 PM)

That may be your problem right there then, but I don't know for 100% certain. Zeros have a max range (with tanks) of 14 hexes this is true, but on an escort mission they would time their take-off to arrive on target at the same time as the bombers so minimal waste of fuel. For CAP on the other hand, they need loiter time, and it could very well be that CAP can only go to the "normal" range with tanks (11 hexes). Like I said, can't say for sure, but that is a possibility. Then again, you could have just had crappy weather over the airfields. Check the combat events files to see if raids were canceled from those bases.



VSWG -> RE: LRCap-.....no idea how to get it to work (10/31/2010 1:22:40 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sredni

I read here and there a couple times that land based air have a hard time conducting LRCap over ships at sea, and that even if they find their target there are still penalties in how many aircraft will make it to cap.

It's in the manual.

7.2.1.8
Long Range CAP over TF’s are less effective then normal CAP.

7.1
» Long Range CAP – The air unit’s aircraft will fly combat air patrol over all
friendly units in a hex other than the one containing the air unit’s base.
Long Range CAP will attempt to intercept any enemy planes flying into
the hex containing the Long Range CAP. The amount of fighters protecting
the friendly units at the moment of an enemy airstrike is based on the
range to the hex being protected and the normal radius of the aircraft
flying Long Range CAP. Long Range CAP over Air Combat TF’s is only 20%
as effective as over other units since it’s harder to coordinate with an Air
Combat TF that is constantly changing course and is using radio silence.



SoliInvictus202 -> RE: LRCap-.....no idea how to get it to work (10/31/2010 1:25:34 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: VSWG


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sredni

I read here and there a couple times that land based air have a hard time conducting LRCap over ships at sea, and that even if they find their target there are still penalties in how many aircraft will make it to cap.

It's in the manual.

7.2.1.8
Long Range CAP over TF’s are less effective then normal CAP.

7.1
» Long Range CAP – The air unit’s aircraft will fly combat air patrol over all
friendly units in a hex other than the one containing the air unit’s base.
Long Range CAP will attempt to intercept any enemy planes flying into
the hex containing the Long Range CAP. The amount of fighters protecting
the friendly units at the moment of an enemy airstrike is based on the
range to the hex being protected and the normal radius of the aircraft
flying Long Range CAP. Long Range CAP over Air Combat TF’s is only 20%
as effective as over other units since it’s harder to coordinate with an Air
Combat TF that is constantly changing course and is using radio silence.


perfect: so out of 100 planes 20% should have been over the targets.....maybe 80 with change altogether set for LRCap ...so that makes 12+ - and I get none....thanks for quoting the manual...



SoliInvictus202 -> RE: LRCap-.....no idea how to get it to work (10/31/2010 1:27:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: War History

That may be your problem right there then, but I don't know for 100% certain. Zeros have a max range (with tanks) of 14 hexes this is true, but on an escort mission they would time their take-off to arrive on target at the same time as the bombers so minimal waste of fuel. For CAP on the other hand, they need loiter time, and it could very well be that CAP can only go to the "normal" range with tanks (11 hexes). Like I said, can't say for sure, but that is a possibility. Then again, you could have just had crappy weather over the airfields. Check the combat events files to see if raids were canceled from those bases.


yeah...that happened in the week before a lot - all raids cancelled due to bad weather (forecast "light overcast - Dutch planes flew however)
but this week (with the 4 days in question) I never saw these messages.....had I seen them I'd have been bloody annoyed due to the clear skies....but I'd have accepted it

and I can even live with the fighters not coordinating with bombers...that's war (if it doesn't happen always) - but as VSWG generously quoted the manual - some planes should have LRCAPed the TFs....


anyway thanks for all of your answers - it seems the communis opinio is that there is no real reason for it - randomness for over 4 days and on several occasion before is hardly good enough for me....



Itdepends -> RE: LRCap-.....no idea how to get it to work (10/31/2010 1:31:06 PM)

It always rains in Holland- Dutch pilots are used to the rain.

British pilots should also be used to it- but won't fly because the leather in their flight suit stains. That's why they're upgrading to Hurricanes- enclosed cockpits............



SoliInvictus202 -> RE: LRCap-.....no idea how to get it to work (10/31/2010 1:32:26 PM)

quote:

It always rains in Holland- Dutch pilots are used to the rain.

British pilots should also be used to it- but won't fly because the leather in their flight suit stains. That's why they're upgrading to Hurricanes- enclosed cockpits............


and zeroes are flying with steam engines that apparently don't work in rain and have two slaves on the wings to give them more speed right?



Itdepends -> RE: LRCap-.....no idea how to get it to work (10/31/2010 1:35:13 PM)

I'm not complaining. However I must point out that I most emphatically agree with you on one point.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SoliInvictus202
I wouldn't have posted - I'd have still lost ships - that's not the problem....the losses are fine -



herwin -> RE: LRCap-.....no idea how to get it to work (10/31/2010 1:35:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: War History

If you have surface groups escorting, put a handful of float planes on CAP. Just the fact that they are intercepted will ward off a lot of the hits. And if the weather won't let them fly, then you can't get hit either.

There could be other factors as to why your land based CAP didn't fly though. 2 things come to mind: 1) Supply. Do the bases have enough supply to fly? You say this isn't the cause in this case. 2) Drop tanks turned on? If the TF starts in range of the bases that they don't need drop tanks, then they won't switch to "on" when the ships move out of range. This is a case where you would have to manually set it. Koepang is out of range without drop tanks turned on. So barring bad weather over both bases, I suspect this was your problem.


Also, the LRCAP should be given the TF as a target.



VSWG -> RE: LRCap-.....no idea how to get it to work (10/31/2010 1:36:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SoliInvictus202


quote:

ORIGINAL: VSWG


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sredni

I read here and there a couple times that land based air have a hard time conducting LRCap over ships at sea, and that even if they find their target there are still penalties in how many aircraft will make it to cap.

It's in the manual.

7.2.1.8
Long Range CAP over TF’s are less effective then normal CAP.

7.1
» Long Range CAP – The air unit’s aircraft will fly combat air patrol over all
friendly units in a hex other than the one containing the air unit’s base.
Long Range CAP will attempt to intercept any enemy planes flying into
the hex containing the Long Range CAP. The amount of fighters protecting
the friendly units at the moment of an enemy airstrike is based on the
range to the hex being protected and the normal radius of the aircraft
flying Long Range CAP. Long Range CAP over Air Combat TF’s is only 20%
as effective as over other units since it’s harder to coordinate with an Air
Combat TF that is constantly changing course and is using radio silence.


perfect: so out of 100 planes 20% should have been over the targets.....maybe 80 with change altogether set for LRCap ...so that makes 12+ - and I get none....thanks for quoting the manual...

The 20 % applies to LRCAP'ing air combat TFs. The manual doesn't mention the penalty for all other TFs.

LRCAP for TFs works fine for me. Not sure what is happening. Can you post a screenshot of one of your squadrons set to LRCAP?



Itdepends -> RE: LRCap-.....no idea how to get it to work (10/31/2010 1:36:55 PM)

Roland did that- I mentioned it in an email after the first Amphib TF got done over (and it's in his first post of this thread).

Edit- I mean he assigned a TF as the target of the LRCAP



SoliInvictus202 -> RE: LRCap-.....no idea how to get it to work (10/31/2010 1:45:09 PM)

here the two screens...

first unit is fully ready and should have been flying this turn and 4 days ago as well....

the second unit has been flying LRCap for 4 days now...last turn I set it to 100 (50 before) cause I was getting frustrated and now of course it has much to much fatigue...

I can post all other units as well if you'D like

[image]local://upfiles/35981/AE2B5CE6C2004A259724BAE3119F9C7E.jpg[/image]

the unit it was protecting made a high speed run and is thus very close by now....it had been chewed up 2 or 3 days ago - no plane was protecting it as well...



SoliInvictus202 -> RE: LRCap-.....no idea how to get it to work (10/31/2010 1:45:38 PM)

second unit

[image]local://upfiles/35981/09FC0877BFAD4DC0AD3B4AB2428AD328.jpg[/image]



Itdepends -> RE: LRCap-.....no idea how to get it to work (10/31/2010 2:00:54 PM)

It's worth noting that those TF's got hit in both the AM and PM air phases- with no LRCAP showing up in either phase.

Daniel

Edit: - It's also worth noting I suppose, I should, yeah ok that the BF providing those torps were still in Strat mode- having only just been told to get their asses off the train in the orders phase just before that action (well- I guess they did see the TF coming- maybe the left all the REMF's on the train and made a bee line for the torps).
WAD?



Sardaukar -> RE: LRCap-.....no idea how to get it to work (10/31/2010 2:08:52 PM)

IIRC, you can LRCAP only up to normal range, not extended range. I don't know if this is why you cannot LRCAP those TFs..in screenshots ranges are 3 and 8..well within.

But I am not entirely sure if it takes drop tanks to that calculation or not...so your problem might be related to range to TFs. After all, planes have to fly there and then loiter on LRCAP, so range cannot be too far.



SoliInvictus202 -> RE: LRCap-.....no idea how to get it to work (10/31/2010 2:16:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

IIRC, you can LRCAP only up to normal range, not extended range. I don't know if this is why you cannot LRCAP those TFs..in screenshots ranges are 3 and 8..well within.

But I am not entirely sure if it takes drop tanks to that calculation or not...so your problem might be related to range to TFs. After all, planes have to fly there and then loiter on LRCAP, so range cannot be too far.


thanks - that might explain it for yesterday'S disaster - cause it was within extended range - I guess I didn't find that in the manual then
....the disaster 2 days ago however was well within normal range and only 1 of the 3 LRCAPing squadrons even had drop tanks on....
at least I'm sort of convinced that I didn't do anything majorly wrong...



VSWG -> RE: LRCap-.....no idea how to get it to work (10/31/2010 2:28:34 PM)

Looks fine to me, too. I guess weather is the only explanation left, even if it is far fetched: for 4 days only your AF was closed due to weather, and the target hex and the Allied bases were not...?

You could post a save in the tech support forum and ask a dev to look at it. They can debug a save and find out what happened to your LRCAP. There might be an issue here.



Sardaukar -> RE: LRCap-.....no idea how to get it to work (10/31/2010 2:33:03 PM)

Found some discussion with search function, mentioning that LRCAP works only within normal (clean range without droptanks) range of plane. So I bet range to TF is your problem. What is your planes' normal range without drop tanks?



SoliInvictus202 -> RE: LRCap-.....no idea how to get it to work (10/31/2010 2:43:19 PM)

11 or 12 I think

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

Found some discussion with search function, mentioning that LRCAP works only within normal (clean range without droptanks) range of plane. So I bet range to TF is your problem. What is your planes' normal range without drop tanks?




rtrapasso -> RE: LRCap-.....no idea how to get it to work (10/31/2010 2:49:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SoliInvictus202

11 or 12 I think

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

Found some discussion with search function, mentioning that LRCAP works only within normal (clean range without droptanks) range of plane. So I bet range to TF is your problem. What is your planes' normal range without drop tanks?



Could there be some glitch that the planes WON'T go to LR-CAP when they have drop-tanks on (even if they would be within normal range?)



VSWG -> RE: LRCap-.....no idea how to get it to work (10/31/2010 2:55:49 PM)

That would be my guess as well. Soli, can you test LRCAP without drop-tanks?



SoliInvictus202 -> RE: LRCap-.....no idea how to get it to work (10/31/2010 3:02:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: VSWG

That would be my guess as well. Soli, can you test LRCAP without drop-tanks?


there won't be an occasion next turn that I can....as all the ships that would be in need of LRCAp are either sunk or sinking [:D]

I could against the AI - but I have learnt that the games against the AI are no reference at all for a PBEM game - many things seem to work differently there...

I will test it as soon as the occasion presents itself of course - but I have yet to digest those impossible losses I have suffered - as my entire tactic was based on the assumption that the conquest in the DEI will NOT need carrier support - and that the TFs can be protected by LRCap - which they obviously can't....




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