RE: Sorry, but this is wrong (Full Version)

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TonyE -> RE: Sorry, but this is wrong (11/12/2010 1:04:02 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rich12545
And since you will be the one making them, why can't you simply put it out as a zip? I mean, other than some mickey mouse agreement with matrix?


Bingo [8|]. I hold no rights to the game (AGSI does). I am not the publisher (Matrix is). If I release a patch against their will then I bet you won't get any more HC patches whether you pay or not. I'm not about to take that chance. Playing by most of their rules is our 'fee' for getting to work on the game. Yes, sometimes it really really sucks! But heh, we get to work on the game...




jomni -> RE: Sorry, but this is wrong (11/12/2010 1:28:04 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rich12545
But I've never seen a company ask for more money to keep supporting a game, and a lot of money at that.


You haven't heard of Pradox? They stuff important bug fixes in their expansions. That's worse than what Matrix is doing.
Only redeeming factor is that pirce of Paradox games depreciate very quickly.



rich12545 -> RE: Sorry, but this is wrong (11/12/2010 3:08:49 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jomni


quote:

ORIGINAL: rich12545
But I've never seen a company ask for more money to keep supporting a game, and a lot of money at that.


You haven't heard of Pradox? They stuff important bug fixes in their expansions. That's worse than what Matrix is doing.
Only redeeming factor is that pirce of Paradox games depreciate very quickly.


I've heard of paradox and you can't compare them to MG. Like apples to oranges. Matrix would compare to Battlefront, Shrapnel, game companies like that. Small niche companies. And I repeat, I've never seen a company (a comparable one) ask for more money to keep supporting a game. And a lot of money at that. Check out my comparison with Battlefront and what they're doing with Shock Force.



rich12545 -> RE: Sorry, but this is wrong (11/12/2010 3:11:46 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TonyE


quote:

ORIGINAL: rich12545
And since you will be the one making them, why can't you simply put it out as a zip? I mean, other than some mickey mouse agreement with matrix?


Bingo [8|]. I hold no rights to the game (AGSI does). I am not the publisher (Matrix is). If I release a patch against their will then I bet you won't get any more HC patches whether you pay or not. I'm not about to take that chance. Playing by most of their rules is our 'fee' for getting to work on the game. Yes, sometimes it really really sucks! But heh, we get to work on the game...




Well, Tony, I don't know. It's hard for me to realize patches after the current one that are worth $35. Time will tell of course. But that's a lot for a patch or two. It's just way over priced. Even if you're the one making them. [:)]



IainMcNeil -> RE: Sorry, but this is wrong (11/12/2010 9:40:36 AM)

There is a difference between support and upgrades. Support is when you fix a fundamental issue with the game that stops you playing. Upgrades are things that make it better. I'm no expert n Harpoon but I am pretty sure the vast majority of changes have been to improve the game, not fix game breaking issues, or to fix issues in the upgrades that were issued. Some people seem to have come to think upgrades are things they should get for free which is obviously unsustainable. This developer has gone way above and beyond what can reasonably be expected. It;s very easy to complain but give me an example of another game releasing updates 3 years after release. Then think about how many games dont offer updates 3 years down the line ;)



JudgeDredd -> RE: Sorry, but this is wrong (11/12/2010 11:21:46 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Iain McNeil
There is a difference between support and upgrades. Support is when you fix a fundamental issue with the game that stops you playing. Upgrades are things that make it better.

I agree to an extent.

Just as an example...playing a naval simulation which drops passive sonobouys actively or active sonobouys passively - that doesn't prevent you from playing the game - it's not a "game breaker" but it's a fundamental bug within the game given the context of the game which should be classified as a requirement for free support and upgrade as opposed to a paid upgrade.

So if all such issues were resolved before bundling together and reselling, then there is no issue. But if the "bundling together and reselling" will include fixes to issues like these (which aren't classified as game breaking bugs but rather irritant issues), then it's still wrong to do thi.

I'm not saying that that bug applies - I'm just pointing out that whilst it's not a game stopper, given the subject matter of the game, it is an issue that I think would be under the free "patch" approach as opposed to "included in a paid upgrade to make it better"

By the way - I asked in this thread for anyone to clarify whether all known issues to date for ANW and HCE were resolved and no-one piped up. I only asked so it could be cleared up that the game, as is, before the upgrade pack, was deemed, in the context of the game theme, to be ready for prime time.



shauny1987 -> RE: Sorry, but this is wrong (11/12/2010 11:45:21 AM)

Well I bought HCE, and there have been at least 2 official patches to that, not including all the community scenarios etc. Just purchased H:UE :DI hope the line does not end here!



TonyE -> RE: Sorry, but this is wrong (11/12/2010 2:16:41 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd
By the way - I asked in this thread for anyone to clarify whether all known issues to date for ANW and HCE were resolved and no-one piped up.


In both cases not even close to every known issue is resolved. Nor can I imagine every issue ever being resolved but that's not what you asked. I can say with certainty since I'm the HC programmer, that in HC the answer of when is most assuredly NEVER. I have zero incentive to spend say 500 hours fixing an issue that doesn't impact my enjoyment of the game at all (and some of the items are individually 500+ hour endeavors plus any unintended side-effects that pop up).




Nebogipfel -> RE: Sorry, but this is wrong (11/12/2010 5:27:03 PM)

Iīm pretty sure, most of us do know the dilemma, Harpoon ANW stucks in.

What is a game breaking bug , what is not ?

I tried to give a short example (former post), what can happen while playing ANW.

There isnīt much to compare in the naval warfare niche until now.

So most of us did, what we can do to enjoy the game, despite the amount of bugs.

Though I was able to have fun with it, I wouldnīt have bought it this year, not knowing, that there is an ultimate edition in the pipeline.

At the end I bought a game full priced with one patch left, to resolve all the problems ANW players still know.


In opposite to my view, I know there are many players out there, who wouldnīt consider ANW as playable. Just look at other forums.

The fact, that nobody of the ANW grognards or someone of AGSi did post anything in this 5 sites long thread, says everything about the

status quo of the game.


Itīs a damn bad luck for you TonyE, that your well done work with HCE (I consider so), might be putted down with all the problems ANW does

have.



CV32 -> RE: Sorry, but this is wrong (11/12/2010 5:45:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nebogipfel
Itīs a damn bad luck for you TonyE, that your well done work with HCE (I consider so), might be putted down with all the problems ANW does have.


You won't hear us slagging ANW, but we're pretty proud with what we have accomplished with HCE. That sim is far better today than it has ever been. [8D]



Nebogipfel -> RE: Sorry, but this is wrong (11/12/2010 5:55:43 PM)

quote:

You won't hear us slagging ANW


thatīs exactly what I said [;)]

silence tells everything [:D]



rich12545 -> RE: Sorry, but this is wrong (11/12/2010 6:52:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Iain McNeil

There is a difference between support and upgrades. Support is when you fix a fundamental issue with the game that stops you playing. Upgrades are things that make it better. I'm no expert n Harpoon but I am pretty sure the vast majority of changes have been to improve the game, not fix game breaking issues, or to fix issues in the upgrades that were issued. Some people seem to have come to think upgrades are things they should get for free which is obviously unsustainable. This developer has gone way above and beyond what can reasonably be expected. It;s very easy to complain but give me an example of another game releasing updates 3 years after release. Then think about how many games dont offer updates 3 years down the line ;)


Iain, your post makes no sense mainly because Harpoon patches have been made by volunteers and not by devs.

To put this into perspective, lets say you and your team stopped supporting Battlefront Academy right now and a few volunteers took over support. They periodically fixed bugs and added features.

At what point would you start charging your customer base for these patches made by volunteers? Ever?



CV32 -> RE: Sorry, but this is wrong (11/12/2010 6:54:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nebogipfel
thatīs exactly what I said [;)] silence tells everything [:D]


Don't get me wrong, and I don't want to leave anyone with the wrong impression. I own ANW, but just never was an H3 aficionado, and always preferred the Classic line. If I spent half as much time with ANW, I'd be in real trouble, and I think Tony is in the same boat. [:)]



NefariousKoel -> RE: Sorry, but this is wrong (11/12/2010 7:27:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rich12545
I've heard of paradox and you can't compare them to MG. Like apples to oranges. Matrix would compare to Battlefront, Shrapnel, game companies like that. Small niche companies. And I repeat, I've never seen a company (a comparable one) ask for more money to keep supporting a game. And a lot of money at that. Check out my comparison with Battlefront and what they're doing with Shock Force.


Sorry, but your Battlefront argument doesn't hold up.

I bought the original CMSF boxed version a few years ago. I went to get the latest patch and Battlefront decided that they weren't supporting the physical version (published by Paradox I believe) any longer, but they are supporting their own. I was informed I'd have to pay $1 for the privilege of "upgrading" my nice non-intrusive DRM copy to the limited-install internet activation DRM nonsense they use in order to get the patch. It was insulting.



kojusoki1 -> RE: Sorry, but this is wrong (11/12/2010 9:59:40 PM)

Hi guys
I played Harpoon like 10 yrs ago last time. I had real fun and now its time to spend some time on this again. The problem is your feedeback - Im a Close Combat fan (Matrix also) and I can read the same things here what I read on the Close Combat forum. They (Matrix) are rereleasing games with the same bugs - ok, they support this but the bugs are being repaired not earlier then after a few months...

Anyway - please tell me if this version of Harpoon is now playable in multiplayer or not. I mean a nice, smooth game where you dont have to pray to play without crashes etc. No annoying things etc. Or shall I wait a few month more:)



rich12545 -> RE: Sorry, but this is wrong (11/12/2010 10:26:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NefariousKoel


quote:

ORIGINAL: rich12545
I've heard of paradox and you can't compare them to MG. Like apples to oranges. Matrix would compare to Battlefront, Shrapnel, game companies like that. Small niche companies. And I repeat, I've never seen a company (a comparable one) ask for more money to keep supporting a game. And a lot of money at that. Check out my comparison with Battlefront and what they're doing with Shock Force.


Sorry, but your Battlefront argument doesn't hold up.

I bought the original CMSF boxed version a few years ago. I went to get the latest patch and Battlefront decided that they weren't supporting the physical version (published by Paradox I believe) any longer, but they are supporting their own. I was informed I'd have to pay $1 for the privilege of "upgrading" my nice non-intrusive DRM copy to the limited-install internet activation DRM nonsense they use in order to get the patch. It was insulting.



If I had bought the Paradox version I'd be pissed too. I use that DRM and am not thrilled but put up with it.

If I only had to pay $1 for Ultimate, though, we wouldn't be having this conversation.



Erik Rutins -> RE: Sorry, but this is wrong (11/12/2010 10:58:06 PM)

Rich,

You have an opinion and you are entitled to that, but that does not mean that it is fact. There is reasonable disagreement on this viewpoint, both by me and by other customers.

Regards,

- Erik



rich12545 -> RE: Sorry, but this is wrong (11/13/2010 12:06:05 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Rich,

You have an opinion and you are entitled to that, but that does not mean that it is fact. There is reasonable disagreement on this viewpoint, both by me and by other customers.

Regards,

- Erik


I don't disagree with this. Others are stating their opinion and I'm stating mine.

The more I think about it though the more I'm wondering if Matrix is at fault. Matrix is only the publisher, not the developer. The developer is AGSI or some acronym like that. What I think might be happening is the dev is pushing this atrocity. MG has always been fair so far as I've been able to tell. Maybe it's just the devs being greedy and Matrix is forced to go along and defend. It wouldn't surprise me if Erik, who always impressed me as being a fair person, understands what's happening but is simply unable to voice his true opinion.



mllange -> RE: Sorry, but this is wrong (11/13/2010 2:23:05 AM)

Erik,

Any chance you could reply to my email or PM sent over a week ago?

Best -

nim8or



Erik Rutins -> RE: Sorry, but this is wrong (11/13/2010 2:39:14 AM)

Rich,

quote:

ORIGINAL: rich12545
Iain, your post makes no sense mainly because Harpoon patches have been made by volunteers and not by devs.


Harpoon has to sustain full-time developers as well, despite the fact that there are also volunteers working on the project. Please don't make me explain this again.

Regards,

- Erik



Erik Rutins -> RE: Sorry, but this is wrong (11/13/2010 2:40:11 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: nim8or
Any chance you could reply to my email or PM sent over a week ago?


I probably missed it - could you please re-send to erikr@matrixgames.com? Things are very crazy here right now.

Regards,

- Erik



rich12545 -> RE: Sorry, but this is wrong (11/13/2010 4:23:57 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Rich,

quote:

ORIGINAL: rich12545
Iain, your post makes no sense mainly because Harpoon patches have been made by volunteers and not by devs.


Harpoon has to sustain full-time developers as well, despite the fact that there are also volunteers working on the project. Please don't make me explain this again.

Regards,

- Erik


excuse me, but I don't recall seeing it the first time. You might have said it but I haven't seen it explained. If the work is being done by volunteers, what do full time developers do? Why are they necessary? How can full time developers (plural) keep busy if the work is being done by volunteers?



Erik Rutins -> RE: Sorry, but this is wrong (11/13/2010 4:42:09 AM)

Please see post #38. Harpoon 3 has a development team that includes volunteers but also paid staff. I'm not in charge of how the developer allocates royalties, but I'm sure that Harpoon is not an all-volunteer project. Harpoon itself is a licensed product as well. There is a fundamental misunderstanding on your part about what makes it possible for products like this to exist and continue to be improved and developed. Please read my earlier replies.

Regards,

- Erik



JudgeDredd -> RE: Sorry, but this is wrong (11/13/2010 4:26:59 PM)

Well I'm buying now. I want to see what ANW is like and Hertston's comment (damn you again) about seeing the history and evolution intrigued me.



rich12545 -> RE: Sorry, but this is wrong (11/13/2010 4:29:20 PM)

I've read your earlier replies and my questions continue to go unanswered.

My major complaint is the cost. $35 + tax to continue receiving patches for one game is simply outrageous.

I don't care about the other content.

However, if Ultimate will be on the holiday sale for at least $15-20 off and I would still be able to use my previous owner discount, I'll give serious consideration to buying. I'm not trying to be unreasonable and understand development costs. But $35+ is just too much for a few patches.



shauny1987 -> RE: Sorry, but this is wrong (11/13/2010 4:39:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

Well I'm buying now. I want to see what ANW is like and Hertston's comment (damn you again) about seeing the history and evolution intrigued me.


Agreed, this was my main reason, ANW I feel is leading on to be my favorite one. I like the interface and more 'complex' nature of it!



rickier65 -> RE: Sorry, but this is wrong (11/13/2010 4:58:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rich12545

I've read your earlier replies and my questions continue to go unanswered.

My major complaint is the cost. $35 + tax to continue receiving patches for one game is simply outrageous.

I don't care about the other content.

However, if Ultimate will be on the holiday sale for at least $15-20 off and I would still be able to use my previous owner discount, I'll give serious consideration to buying. I'm not trying to be unreasonable and understand development costs. But $35+ is just too much for a few patches.


rich,

as a suggestion, if $35 is too high, why not wait for the patch that brings your current games up to this level, I think I read that was going to ready soon. Then wait until the next patches are out and then decide if it's worth it.

thanks,
Rick



rich12545 -> RE: Sorry, but this is wrong (11/13/2010 5:16:23 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rick


quote:

ORIGINAL: rich12545

I've read your earlier replies and my questions continue to go unanswered.

My major complaint is the cost. $35 + tax to continue receiving patches for one game is simply outrageous.

I don't care about the other content.

However, if Ultimate will be on the holiday sale for at least $15-20 off and I would still be able to use my previous owner discount, I'll give serious consideration to buying. I'm not trying to be unreasonable and understand development costs. But $35+ is just too much for a few patches.


rich,

as a suggestion, if $35 is too high, why not wait for the patch that brings your current games up to this level, I think I read that was going to ready soon. Then wait until the next patches are out and then decide if it's worth it.

thanks,
Rick


Yeah, obviously I'm going to patch to the Ultimate level and see. But Harpoon patches seem to come at least a year apart so who knows if the current buyer discount will still be available when the next patch arrives.

It must be nice to have enough money to plunk down $35 just to see what it looks like.



shauny1987 -> RE: Sorry, but this is wrong (11/13/2010 5:19:51 PM)

Cry baby.

There are way too many whiners here. Either buy the product or dont. Whether it is fair or not doesnt matter. Whether you like it or not doesnt matter. Whether you think its just a patch doesnt matter.

Either you buy it or you dont, quit whining about it. Any true fan of Harpoon would not whine about shelling out a fair amount of money with a discount for EVERY Harpoon game + patches + further support for the Harpoon franchise.

*and Harpoon is a niche market, it needs die hards not whiners.



Erik Rutins -> RE: Sorry, but this is wrong (11/13/2010 5:28:15 PM)

No personal attacks please, let's keep it civil.

Rich, where we disagree is on the point that $35 is an outrageous price. I've expressed my thoughts on this earlier in this thread, but fundamentally, whenever you bought the existing games you will benefit from 3-4 years of additional development post-release provided in the form of free updates that included not only fixes but new features. Through the print-friendly manuals upload, you also have free access to the updated manuals, which were months of work. The package itself with the upgrade coupon offers both games, updated and with continued support for less than half of the previous combined price.

I respect that none of us are floating in cash now, it's not a fun economy. I respect that you may decide this new release is not worth your while. It will not be on sale this year, but it will likely be on sale in next year's holiday sale. With all that said, this does not mean that it's cool for you to cast us as money-grubbing or screwing over our existing customers when the industry standard is to provide much less support than we have and to provide no upgrade coupon whatsoever.

That's not how we do things - we serve a niche market and we do our best to keep free updates coming as long as we can and to offer a discounted upgrade path when that's no longer possible since customer satisfaction and loyalty mean a lot to us. Whether you agree that the release is worth it for you or not, please extend us the benefit of the doubt that making these games does cost money and that maintaining them does also cost money, which means that free updates cannot continue indefinitely. You do not have our balance sheets, so you will have to take my word for that. The customer does have a voice in our company and keeping the customer's interests in mind is always a part of our internal decision-making, but we also can't pay our own bills by giving away everything for free.

Regards,

- Erik



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