Pilots: CAP and Fatigue (Full Version)

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MilRevKo -> Pilots: CAP and Fatigue (11/21/2010 1:01:53 PM)

I am flying CAP and escorting dive bombers out of Port Moresby in Feb 42. I have two groups of fighter and their fatigue is between 30+ - 40+ fatigue. I am trying to keep the fatigue down to a reasonable lvl and keep up the protection. I have set CAP to 70% & rest to 30 % for each group. Is this a reasonable approach...?

THX



cookie monster -> RE: Pilots: CAP and Fatigue (11/21/2010 1:09:59 PM)

Try 60/40.

By trial and error you will get there.



Walloc -> RE: Pilots: CAP and Fatigue (11/21/2010 1:15:43 PM)

If u wana keep fatigue beloe 10ish with constand CAP over time u'll even hafta go down to 50/50 CAP/Rest.
Problem seems to be that the AI favors certain pilots in a squadron.
They will fly more mishes than others so their fatigue is "hard" to combat, even with "high" rest factors.

Hope it helps,

Rasmus



herwin -> RE: Pilots: CAP and Fatigue (11/21/2010 1:17:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MilRevKo

I am flying CAP and escorting dive bombers out of Port Moresby in Feb 42. I have two groups of fighter and their fatigue is between 30+ - 40+ fatigue. I am trying to keep the fatigue down to a reasonable lvl and keep up the protection. I have set CAP to 70% & rest to 30 % for each group. Is this a reasonable approach...?

THX


30% CAP, no rest.



Bliztk -> RE: Pilots: CAP and Fatigue (11/21/2010 1:32:45 PM)

Another idea is to try to have the CAP squadron with excess pilots. A 30 plane squadron can have IIRC 42 pilots, so if you are at 60% CAP and 40 rest, you are resting 24 pilots one day, and the next one the other 24 rest, so you do not accumulate fatigue at a great rate



DivePac88 -> RE: Pilots: CAP and Fatigue (11/21/2010 1:51:47 PM)

30% CAP, no rest.

If a large raid comes in, and your base has sufficient warning (radar), extra fighters above the 30% will scrabble.



MilRevKo -> RE: Pilots: CAP and Fatigue (11/21/2010 2:20:45 PM)

Sorry, only play PBEM



MilRevKo -> RE: Pilots: CAP and Fatigue (11/21/2010 2:21:44 PM)

THX, re: pilots and radar



Djordje -> RE: Pilots: CAP and Fatigue (11/21/2010 2:23:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MilRevKo

Sorry, only play PBEM


When Rasmus said AI, he meant game routine that works for you selecting your pilots to fly each day, not AI as your opponent.



RUDOLF -> RE: Pilots: CAP and Fatigue (11/21/2010 2:41:56 PM)

I usem y cap on 70/30 - it works without any problems.  Make sure you have every squadron maxed out on Pilots,  the AI will favour some pilots but you will get some rotation.
I go down to 50/50 for 3 days every 64th day.



MilRevKo -> RE: Pilots: CAP and Fatigue (11/21/2010 2:56:24 PM)

Thanks,

Beginning to under stand the dynamics of the air groups.



castor troy -> RE: Pilots: CAP and Fatigue (11/21/2010 3:05:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DivePac88

30% CAP, no rest.

If a large raid comes in, and your base has sufficient warning (radar), extra fighters above the 30% will scrabble.



30% Cap and the non working land based radar at the moments you can expect some 15% of the fighters in the air... better to abandon the base completely of fighters then...



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Pilots: CAP and Fatigue (11/21/2010 6:36:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MilRevKo

I am flying CAP and escorting dive bombers out of Port Moresby in Feb 42. I have two groups of fighter and their fatigue is between 30+ - 40+ fatigue. I am trying to keep the fatigue down to a reasonable lvl and keep up the protection. I have set CAP to 70% & rest to 30 % for each group. Is this a reasonable approach...?

THX


I don't know how the code math works, but I believe bases in the malaria zone have extra fatigue assigned per turn and the pilots in those regions need more Rest. In NG I use a rule of thumb of 50% Rest for long-term operations, and spurts of only 30% when needed operationally, but not for more than three days. More than that and fatigue can shoot into the 60s and 70s, or higher, very easily.



DivePac88 -> RE: Pilots: CAP and Fatigue (11/22/2010 2:42:23 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy


quote:

ORIGINAL: DivePac88

30% CAP, no rest.

If a large raid comes in, and your base has sufficient warning (radar), extra fighters above the 30% will scrabble.



30% Cap and the non working land based radar at the moments you can expect some 15% of the fighters in the air... better to abandon the base completely of fighters then...


What... radar does not work? [&:]



castor troy -> RE: Pilots: CAP and Fatigue (11/22/2010 7:49:47 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DivePac88


quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy


quote:

ORIGINAL: DivePac88

30% CAP, no rest.

If a large raid comes in, and your base has sufficient warning (radar), extra fighters above the 30% will scrabble.



30% Cap and the non working land based radar at the moments you can expect some 15% of the fighters in the air... better to abandon the base completely of fighters then...


What... radar does not work? [&:]




lol, you must have missed lots of posts lately! [:D] Yeah, land based radar is out of order, going to be fixed with the next patch. IIRC, land based radar "works" and detects incoming raids but is then "overwritten" by the observers. Hence no radar detection from land based radar sets. Ship based radar works just fine (probably because there are no observers [:D]). Has been like this for months. Have you never realized that you only get a couple of minutes prewarning time during attacks on bases?



herwin -> RE: Pilots: CAP and Fatigue (11/22/2010 8:57:41 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

quote:

ORIGINAL: DivePac88


quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy


quote:

ORIGINAL: DivePac88

30% CAP, no rest.

If a large raid comes in, and your base has sufficient warning (radar), extra fighters above the 30% will scrabble.



30% Cap and the non working land based radar at the moments you can expect some 15% of the fighters in the air... better to abandon the base completely of fighters then...


What... radar does not work? [&:]




lol, you must have missed lots of posts lately! [:D] Yeah, land based radar is out of order, going to be fixed with the next patch. IIRC, land based radar "works" and detects incoming raids but is then "overwritten" by the observers. Hence no radar detection from land based radar sets. Ship based radar works just fine (probably because there are no observers [:D]). Has been like this for months. Have you never realized that you only get a couple of minutes prewarning time during attacks on bases?


That explains some things I've been wondering about...



d0mbo -> RE: Pilots: CAP and Fatigue (11/22/2010 9:43:44 AM)

Combine the non working radar with your pilots playing scrabble and you've got some Kodak moments in the making! [:D]


quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy


quote:

ORIGINAL: DivePac88

30% CAP, no rest.

If a large raid comes in, and your base has sufficient warning (radar), extra fighters above the 30% will scrabble.



30% Cap and the non working land based radar at the moments you can expect some 15% of the fighters in the air... better to abandon the base completely of fighters then...




castor troy -> RE: Pilots: CAP and Fatigue (11/22/2010 9:46:37 AM)

If you want to have 50% in the air when the enemy comes calling then youīve got to set them at least to 80% Cap. That way you will still lose lots of fighters on the ground but not as many as you would with a mini Cap setting while actually having a chance to also inflict some damage on the enemy. Of course then you just have to ignore that after one or two days all your pilots are at 40+ fat. Have raised this months ago... oh well

if I send my heavies out every day they wonīt accumulate anywhere near the fat my fighter pilots get if set to Cap. If you want to Cap a base, you just have to live with it.



MilRevKo -> RE: Pilots: CAP and Fatigue (11/22/2010 12:38:34 PM)

Wow, I did miss the radar bug

As a side question what is an acceptable amount of fatigue for fights protecting a base like Port Morsbey in Feb 42?



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Pilots: CAP and Fatigue (11/22/2010 1:08:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

If you want to have 50% in the air when the enemy comes calling then youīve got to set them at least to 80% Cap. That way you will still lose lots of fighters on the ground but not as many as you would with a mini Cap setting while actually having a chance to also inflict some damage on the enemy. Of course then you just have to ignore that after one or two days all your pilots are at 40+ fat. Have raised this months ago... oh well



The problem with this plan is, of course, that highly-fatigued pilots don't fly either. An 80% CAP will gut your fighter protection in a few days, certainly less than a week. And you're back to losing the planes on the ground.

Depending on base location about the only thing you can do is have a rotation program for R&R and enough units to allow this. In some other cases you just have to accept a lower number of planes in the air, but with rested pilots.



castor troy -> RE: Pilots: CAP and Fatigue (11/22/2010 1:12:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

If you want to have 50% in the air when the enemy comes calling then youīve got to set them at least to 80% Cap. That way you will still lose lots of fighters on the ground but not as many as you would with a mini Cap setting while actually having a chance to also inflict some damage on the enemy. Of course then you just have to ignore that after one or two days all your pilots are at 40+ fat. Have raised this months ago... oh well



The problem with this plan is, of course, that highly-fatigued pilots don't fly either. An 80% CAP will gut your fighter protection in a few days, certainly less than a week. And you're back to losing the planes on the ground.

Depending on base location about the only thing you can do is have a rotation program for R&R and enough units to allow this. In some other cases you just have to accept a lower number of planes in the air, but with rested pilots.



have never heard about fatigued pilots not flying and this also doesnīt seem to be the case in my games. The only way to get an "acceptable" number of fighters in the air is to have a real high Cap %. Then you have to accept the fat or otherwise you have to pull out. Canīt see much of a possibility as long as radar isnīt working.

Fat is sky rocketing but that way Iīve get some 50% (sometimes more) fighters airborne... leaves still a lot on the ground to be torched though... no radar is a mess, for both sides...



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Pilots: CAP and Fatigue (11/22/2010 1:28:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

have never heard about fatigued pilots not flying and this also doesnīt seem to be the case in my games.


"Colors may be used on this screen to denote significant changes in the status of pilots. A pilot’s
name in yellow indicates his Overall EXP is above 80 and is eligible to transfer to the Training
Command. White indicates he is currently assigned a plane and is ready to fly. Black indicates
he is removed from flight duty due to excessive fatigue or a shortage of aircraft."

P. 146 of manual.

Tired pilots get grounded. If you've over-strengthed the unit you may have a replacement to swap in . . . for awhile. But running at 80% CAP, especially in a malaria zone base like NG, will gut your performance very quickly.

In addition to pilots with high fatigue not flying at all, fatigue affects in-the-air perfomance too.

"Pilots and crews become fatigued as they fly. A long Mission will cause them to end up with
a high Fatigue and Disruption rate upon arriving at the target."

P. 175 of manual.

So, your fighter pilots may be up there, but they may also get clocked and KIAed if tired.

There's no free lunch. High fatigue is a killer. That's one reason it's in the game.



castor troy -> RE: Pilots: CAP and Fatigue (11/22/2010 2:21:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

have never heard about fatigued pilots not flying and this also doesnīt seem to be the case in my games.


"Colors may be used on this screen to denote significant changes in the status of pilots. A pilot’s
name in yellow indicates his Overall EXP is above 80 and is eligible to transfer to the Training
Command. White indicates he is currently assigned a plane and is ready to fly. Black indicates
he is removed from flight duty due to excessive fatigue or a shortage of aircraft."

P. 146 of manual.

Tired pilots get grounded. If you've over-strengthed the unit you may have a replacement to swap in . . . for awhile. But running at 80% CAP, especially in a malaria zone base like NG, will gut your performance very quickly.

In addition to pilots with high fatigue not flying at all, fatigue affects in-the-air perfomance too.

"Pilots and crews become fatigued as they fly. A long Mission will cause them to end up with
a high Fatigue and Disruption rate upon arriving at the target."

P. 175 of manual.

So, your fighter pilots may be up there, but they may also get clocked and KIAed if tired.

There's no free lunch. High fatigue is a killer. That's one reason it's in the game.



My PBEM is in Dec 43 now and guess what, I have yet to see a pilot being BLACK. And effect on performance? Not notable in my games so you should either take the manual with a grain of salt or keep you fighters on the ground to be bombed. Thatīs perhaps a possibility if you are the Japanese and got the ability to pump out fighters at will, but as the Allied with replacement rates of a couple of dozen per month I better have my fighters in the air, even if there are only 50% of them, this is still better than having 85% grounded because I follow the manual. There is so much not spot on in the manual or hasnīt made it that I would only take it as a guide but not as gospel.

Just a side note on aboves statement in bold, Iīve got enough squadrons with 33 pilots having 2 aircraft and NOT A SINGLE PILOT shows up in black. Would 33 pilots for 2 aircaft not count as "shortage of aircraft". So much about the manual.

But everyone feel free to believe the manual and set whatever Cap rate he wishes to, like mentioned above, I preferre having my fighters in the air, no matter how fatigued the pilots are and as long as they manage to achieve 20:1 kill rates in these never ending dive loops I also donīt give a damn what the manual says about "decreased air to air performance".



FatR -> RE: Pilots: CAP and Fatigue (11/22/2010 2:45:53 PM)

I generally use either 40% CAP, no rest, or 50% CAP, 50% rest.



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Pilots: CAP and Fatigue (11/22/2010 2:46:19 PM)

OK, you just don't know when to quit, do you?

The color thing is from the manual. We all know that the pilot color scheme was changed very early, in the first patch I believe. That does not change the fact that pilot fatigue was not changed, it's in the code, it's a performance check, and rightly so.

I don't care what you do or think in your games, but you shouldn't be telling new players that running pilots at 80% fatigue has no effect on game mechanics. That's simply untrue.



castor troy -> RE: Pilots: CAP and Fatigue (11/22/2010 3:25:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

OK, you just don't know when to quit, do you?

The color thing is from the manual. We all know that the pilot color scheme was changed very early, in the first patch I believe. That does not change the fact that pilot fatigue was not changed, it's in the code, it's a performance check, and rightly so.

I don't care what you do or think in your games, but you shouldn't be telling new players that running pilots at 80% fatigue has no effect on game mechanics. That's simply untrue.



better tell new people what is happening in the game instead of telling them something from the manual that is 100% untrue. How bad is my P-47 pilotīs performance when they manage to down enemy fighters 20:1 at times when they get a never ending dive? Wow, they really must be hit by fatigue decreasing their performance.

Like Iīve said, RADAR ISNīT WORKING, so go ahead and keep your fighters sitting on the ground to get bombed or take the fat and have them at least airborne at perhaps 50%. Believe me, Iīve pointed out things that are totally bugged (and fixed in the next patch) so long ago that itīs better to "believe" me than believe what is stated in the manual and either never made it into the game or has been changed with some patch. When I started to cry about not working search archs and not working land based radar in my AAR people have still been thinking for MONTHS everything would be fine. Heck, fine with me, go ahead and believe the manual or think everything would be fine.

When I just look at this thread and read the "what? land based radar isnīt working" then itīs probably time for me to start posting in BOLD only...



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Pilots: CAP and Fatigue (11/22/2010 3:36:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

OK, you just don't know when to quit, do you?

The color thing is from the manual. We all know that the pilot color scheme was changed very early, in the first patch I believe. That does not change the fact that pilot fatigue was not changed, it's in the code, it's a performance check, and rightly so.

I don't care what you do or think in your games, but you shouldn't be telling new players that running pilots at 80% fatigue has no effect on game mechanics. That's simply untrue.



better tell new people what is happening in the game instead of telling them something from the manual that is 100% untrue. How bad is my P-47 pilotīs performance when they manage to down enemy fighters 20:1 at times when they get a never ending dive? Wow, they really must be hit by fatigue decreasing their performance.

Like Iīve said, RADAR ISNīT WORKING, so go ahead and keep your fighters sitting on the ground to get bombed or take the fat and have them at least airborne at perhaps 50%. Believe me, Iīve pointed out things that are totally bugged (and fixed in the next patch) so long ago that itīs better to "believe" me than believe what is stated in the manual and either never made it into the game or has been changed with some patch. When I started to cry about not working search archs and not working land based radar in my AAR people have still been thinking for MONTHS everything would be fine. Heck, fine with me, go ahead and believe the manual or think everything would be fine.

When I just look at this thread and read the "what? land based radar isnīt working" then itīs probably time for me to start posting in BOLD only...


Jeeze, rave much?

I'm not talking about radar. That's a separate issue.

I'm not talking about how great P-47s are. They are great, even when flown by half-asleep pilots.

I AM talking about a code check for fatigue, which I believe is in the game. I invite a dev to respond if this is not the case.

The problem you KEEP ignoring is that YOU HAVE NO CONTROL OVER GROUNDING TIRED PILOTS. If the guy passes the level where he fails the check, he gets grounded. If you have over-manned the unit another guy gets tapped to fly. If he has low fatigue, you're fine. If he has medium fatigue, he flies badly, and probably gets killed. You can't stop this from happening, except by taking action to adjust your Rest and Stand Down controls.

If you're not getting a lot of fighters up, maybe it's radar. Maybe. Or maybe it's partly that your pilots are asleep.

Again, I'm done here, but I'd appreciate The Elf or another dev with code access to let us knwo if the fatigue check described in the manual is still in the code.



castor troy -> RE: Pilots: CAP and Fatigue (11/22/2010 4:10:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

OK, you just don't know when to quit, do you?

The color thing is from the manual. We all know that the pilot color scheme was changed very early, in the first patch I believe. That does not change the fact that pilot fatigue was not changed, it's in the code, it's a performance check, and rightly so.

I don't care what you do or think in your games, but you shouldn't be telling new players that running pilots at 80% fatigue has no effect on game mechanics. That's simply untrue.



better tell new people what is happening in the game instead of telling them something from the manual that is 100% untrue. How bad is my P-47 pilotīs performance when they manage to down enemy fighters 20:1 at times when they get a never ending dive? Wow, they really must be hit by fatigue decreasing their performance.

Like Iīve said, RADAR ISNīT WORKING, so go ahead and keep your fighters sitting on the ground to get bombed or take the fat and have them at least airborne at perhaps 50%. Believe me, Iīve pointed out things that are totally bugged (and fixed in the next patch) so long ago that itīs better to "believe" me than believe what is stated in the manual and either never made it into the game or has been changed with some patch. When I started to cry about not working search archs and not working land based radar in my AAR people have still been thinking for MONTHS everything would be fine. Heck, fine with me, go ahead and believe the manual or think everything would be fine.

When I just look at this thread and read the "what? land based radar isnīt working" then itīs probably time for me to start posting in BOLD only...


Jeeze, rave much?

I'm not talking about radar. That's a separate issue.

I'm not talking about how great P-47s are. They are great, even when flown by half-asleep pilots.

I AM talking about a code check for fatigue, which I believe is in the game. I invite a dev to respond if this is not the case.

The problem you KEEP ignoring is that YOU HAVE NO CONTROL OVER GROUNDING TIRED PILOTS. If the guy passes the level where he fails the check, he gets grounded. If you have over-manned the unit another guy gets tapped to fly. If he has low fatigue, you're fine. If he has medium fatigue, he flies badly, and probably gets killed. You can't stop this from happening, except by taking action to adjust your Rest and Stand Down controls.

If you're not getting a lot of fighters up, maybe it's radar. Maybe. Or maybe it's partly that your pilots are asleep.

Again, I'm done here, but I'd appreciate The Elf or another dev with code access to let us knwo if the fatigue check described in the manual is still in the code.




youīre done, well Iīm done too then, because if you really think the fighters are grounded due to fatigue then I canīt help you anyway. I can give you a tip though, put them on 100% Cap and use working radar (= ship based) and then put them on 100% Cap and use non working radar (= land based) and you will find out that itīs NOT fatigue that keeps them on the ground but no prewarning time. For your info, with working radar and 80% Cap I more or less get 100% of the fighters into the air and now please donīt tell me that the fatigue for carrier based fighter pilots is anywhere different to land based fighter pilots as both show the same fatigue. The ones with radar scramble, the ones without radar donīt scramble. Got nothing to do with fatigue. And like Iīve said, if you preferre having them sit on the ground or on the carrier, just go ahead and keep them grounded, any opponent will be happy to bomb them on the ground or send them to the bottom together with the carrier they sit on.

Itīs so easy, itīs so easy you could even find out without believing the manual, nor reading the manual, nor doing any test... just PLAYING



TommyG -> RE: Pilots: CAP and Fatigue (11/22/2010 7:46:37 PM)

What about moving overworked pilots into group reserve. Will that: 1. keep them from flying, and 2 allow them to recover fatigue?



Walloc -> RE: Pilots: CAP and Fatigue (11/22/2010 8:59:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TommyG

What about moving overworked pilots into group reserve. Will that: 1. keep them from flying, and 2 allow them to recover fatigue?


Yes and no. Problem is that when in group reserve my experience is that the pilot recover 1 point of fatigue per day. Much less than if resting. So isnt much of a solution IMO.

Rasmus



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