So much for any Japanese range advantage (Full Version)

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CapAndGown -> So much for any Japanese range advantage (11/27/2010 12:43:45 PM)

Contrary to what you were taught to believe about the Japanese seeking to have longer range strike aircraft, the Judy now has a shorter range than the Dauntless SBD-5. In truth, the battle of Philippines Sea was staged on a Hollywood back lot. The new patch has set thing to right giving the Judy D4Y1 a normal range of 6 and extended range of 7. Somehow I don't think this is right.



wdolson -> RE: So much for any Japanese range advantage (11/27/2010 1:20:07 PM)

The Judy had a max range of 978 Mi and the SBD-5 had a max range of over 1100 Mi.  The -5 had better range than previous models due to the outer shackles being "wet" and I believe the internal fuel may have been increased a little.

At the Battle of the Philippine Sea, the Japanese were able to launch a close to max range strike because planes low on fuel could divert to the Marianias.  When the USN sent out the strike, I don't believe any SBDs were lost to fuel exhaustion.  Quite a few SB2Cs ran out.  Though I believe the SBDs were the last aircraft launched, which helped.  It also helped that the SBD squadrons participating were the most experienced squadrons in the battle and had better fuel management skill.

Bill



m10bob -> RE: So much for any Japanese range advantage (11/27/2010 1:35:55 PM)

Yep...Had a ferry range of 2417 miles, but the "normal" mission range of the Judy was 975.
Judy was a rather small plane, 2 seater and roughly the size of a ZEKE!
Not much room for fuel.
When so many games had the range wrong, we tend to expect the fiction to be the reality.[8D]




CV Zuikaku -> RE: So much for any Japanese range advantage (11/27/2010 1:38:21 PM)

But how did they end up with such abnormal range first place?? And did they carried 330l drop tanks at all??



Skyros -> RE: So much for any Japanese range advantage (11/27/2010 2:43:03 PM)

The Yokosuka D4Y Suisei ("Comet") was a carrier-borne navy dive bomber and recponnaissance plane that was meant to replace the obsolete Aichi D3A2 "Val" dive bomber, however it proved to be insufficiently armed and protected, and the engine was not altogether reliable. Along with the Kawasaki Ki-61 Hien fighter, it was one of only two Japanese aircraft with an inline engine to be produced in significant numbers. Both aircraft were plagued by engine troubles throughout their careers and therefore failed to perform as well as they might have. The design was originally based on the German Heinkel He-118, for which Japan had acquired the license for production. When the original model of the He-118 was destroyed and the program suspended, the naval authorities were still impressed enough with its potential that they requested that a carrier-based dive bomber be modeled after the Heinkel prototype. The first D4Y1 bombers were ready for operational use in March of 1943, but the aircraft was not a great success. Even the improved D4Y2 models did not change the situation very much. These models were also built in a reconnaissance version, and they were decimated by American fighters. The next version, the D4Y3, had a Mitubishi Kinsei 62 radial engine instead of the original inline engine, and this eliminated several problems. A total of 536 of this version was built. A final version was the D4Y4, which was specifically designed for suicide missions. It was at the controls of a D4Y4 that Admiral Ugaki carried out the last kamikaze attack of the war on August 15, 1945. A total of 2,038 Yokosuka D4Ys were built between spring 1942 and August 1945. The Allied codename for this aircraft was "Judy".

Yokosuka D4Y1 Model 11 (in-line engine)

Type: Carrier Bomber
Service: Japanese Navy Air Force (JNAF)
Crew: 2 (Pilot, gunner)
Armament: two 7.7mm Type 97 machine guns in nose
one flexible 7.92mm Type 1 machine gun in rear position
up to 683 lbs (310 kgs) of bombs
Reference: Francillon: 460, Mondey: n/a

Specifications:
Length: 33' 6.5" (10.22 m)
Height: 12' 0.75" (3.675 m)
Wingspan: 37' 8.75" (11.5 m)
Wing area: 254.027 sq. ft (23.6 sq. m)
Empty Weight: 5379 lbs (2440 kg)
Loaded Weight: 8047 lbs (3650 kg)
Max Weight: 9370 lbs (4250 kg)

Propulsion:
No. of Engines: 1
Powerplant: Aichi AE1A Atsuta 12 12-cylinder liquid-cooled vee engine
Horsepower: 1200 hp

Performance:
Normal Range: 968 st miles (850 naut miles)
Max Range: 2417 st miles (2100 naut miles)
Cruise Speed: 265 mph at 9845 ft (230 kt at 3000 m)
Max Speed: 343 mph at 15585 ft (298 kt at 4750 m)
Climb to/in: 9845 ft (3000 m) in 5 min 14 sec
Ceiling: 32480 ft (9900 m)


http://www.daveswarbirds.com/Nippon/Japanese.htm



crsutton -> RE: So much for any Japanese range advantage (11/27/2010 2:57:56 PM)

I believe that with the drop tank it was one or the other. Either the extra range or the bomb but not both. Can anyone confirm?



crsutton -> RE: So much for any Japanese range advantage (11/27/2010 3:02:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: cap_and_gown

Contrary to what you were taught to believe about the Japanese seeking to have longer range strike aircraft, the Judy now has a shorter range than the Dauntless SBD-5. In truth, the battle of Philippines Sea was staged on a Hollywood back lot. The new patch has set thing to right giving the Judy D4Y1 a normal range of 6 and extended range of 7. Somehow I don't think this is right.




Worse than that, a panel of unbiased judges has determined that your last major carrier victory in your campaign is to be disallowed due the the new range limits. You will have to give back all carriers sunk and replay the turn. In addition, you are now placed on probation, barred from the playoffs for the next two years and must forfeit 30 scholarships.

Sorry it had to come to this......



PaxMondo -> RE: So much for any Japanese range advantage (11/27/2010 6:07:16 PM)

[:D]

PS: 30 seems a bit harsh, but then the NC2A has no sense of humor at all!



CapAndGown -> RE: So much for any Japanese range advantage (11/27/2010 7:08:57 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton


quote:

ORIGINAL: cap_and_gown

Contrary to what you were taught to believe about the Japanese seeking to have longer range strike aircraft, the Judy now has a shorter range than the Dauntless SBD-5. In truth, the battle of Philippines Sea was staged on a Hollywood back lot. The new patch has set thing to right giving the Judy D4Y1 a normal range of 6 and extended range of 7. Somehow I don't think this is right.




Worse than that, a panel of unbiased judges has determined that your last major carrier victory in your campaign is to be disallowed due the the new range limits. You will have to give back all carriers sunk and replay the turn. In addition, you are now placed on probation, barred from the playoffs for the next two years and must forfeit 30 scholarships.

Sorry it had to come to this......


And what do you suppose they are going to do to PzB?




CapAndGown -> RE: So much for any Japanese range advantage (11/27/2010 7:41:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton


quote:

ORIGINAL: cap_and_gown

Contrary to what you were taught to believe about the Japanese seeking to have longer range strike aircraft, the Judy now has a shorter range than the Dauntless SBD-5. In truth, the battle of Philippines Sea was staged on a Hollywood back lot. The new patch has set thing to right giving the Judy D4Y1 a normal range of 6 and extended range of 7. Somehow I don't think this is right.




Worse than that, a panel of unbiased judges has determined that your last major carrier victory in your campaign is to be disallowed due the the new range limits. You will have to give back all carriers sunk and replay the turn. In addition, you are now placed on probation, barred from the playoffs for the next two years and must forfeit 30 scholarships.

Sorry it had to come to this......


You don't suppose Andy Mac was one of those "unbiased judges" do you? [:D]



Shark7 -> RE: So much for any Japanese range advantage (11/27/2010 8:24:53 PM)

Hmm, this removal of the DTs seems to be an error actually. D4Y was plumbed for 2 330 litre drop tanks on the wings, on the same hardpoints that could carry bombs as well. One thing I have noticed is that the D4Y photos I have seen with DTs are all of Judy's being used in the recon role, and not carrying bombs. I'd be willing to bet you had to give up the bomb load for the additional fuel.

Seems to me the correct loadout would be to allow the 2 330 liter droptanks, but in place of bombs (IE it can't carry a bomb with the DTs but can carry out the recon mission).



Mynok -> RE: So much for any Japanese range advantage (11/27/2010 8:27:42 PM)


Probably not a way to code that.



CapAndGown -> RE: So much for any Japanese range advantage (11/27/2010 8:32:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7

Hmm, this removal of the DTs seems to be an error actually. D4Y was plumbed for 2 330 litre drop tanks on the wings, on the same hardpoints that could carry bombs as well. One thing I have noticed is that the D4Y photos I have seen with DTs are all of Judy's being used in the recon role, and not carrying bombs. I'd be willing to bet you had to give up the bomb load for the additional fuel.

Seems to me the correct loadout would be to allow the 2 330 liter droptanks, but in place of bombs (IE it can't carry a bomb with the DTs but can carry out the recon mission).


This is already implemented by giving drop tanks to the Recon version.

Also, I want to know if the 1100 mile range for the SBD is with drop tanks or without? If it is with drop tanks, then the range of the Judy without drop tanks should only be a little less than the SBD-5



CapAndGown -> RE: So much for any Japanese range advantage (11/27/2010 8:35:48 PM)

Well, in comparing the SBD-3 with the SBD-5 I see even the SBD-3 out ranges the Judy now, and that is without drop tanks.



wdolson -> RE: So much for any Japanese range advantage (11/27/2010 10:08:34 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Skyros
total of 536 of this version was built. A final version was the D4Y4, which was specifically designed for suicide missions. It was at the controls of a D4Y4 that Admiral Ugaki carried out the last kamikaze attack of the war on August 15, 1945. A total of 2,038 Yokosuka D4Ys were built between spring 1942 and August 1945. The Allied codename for this aircraft was "Judy".


One tiny nit: I have seen a picture of Ugaki taken just before taking off on the final kamikaze mission. He was in the backseat, not flying the plane. I don't believe he knew how to fly.

In any case the rest of the blurb matches other sources I've read.

Bill



gajdacs zsolt -> RE: So much for any Japanese range advantage (11/27/2010 11:53:24 PM)

I somehow always thought the D4Y had an internal bomb bay, but even if it didn't have, don't DBs always carry their bombs below the fuselage?
[image]http://www.world-war-2-planes.com/images/Yokosuka-D4Y-Suisei.jpg[/image]



Shark7 -> RE: So much for any Japanese range advantage (11/28/2010 12:00:47 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zsolo007

I somehow always thought the D4Y had an internal bomb bay, but even if it didn't have, don't DBs always carry their bombs below the fuselage?
[image]http://www.world-war-2-planes.com/images/Yokosuka-D4Y-Suisei.jpg[/image]



Good picture you found there. It does show the internal bomb bay with the bomb bay doors open. Also if you look at the wings, you can see the hard points with their plumbing hook ups.



gajdacs zsolt -> RE: So much for any Japanese range advantage (11/28/2010 12:10:16 AM)

Here you can find a big picture of the only original left (according to the picture's description):
http://www.airliners.net/photo/Japan---Navy/Yokosuka-D4Y-Suisei/1360483/L/



JuanG -> RE: So much for any Japanese range advantage (11/28/2010 12:12:58 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zsolo007

I somehow always thought the D4Y had an internal bomb bay, but even if it didn't have, don't DBs always carry their bombs below the fuselage?
[image]http://www.world-war-2-planes.com/images/Yokosuka-D4Y-Suisei.jpg[/image]



Good picture you found there. It does show the internal bomb bay with the bomb bay doors open. Also if you look at the wings, you can see the hard points with their plumbing hook ups.


Which means the issue was probably weight; it was either the 660L of fuel, or a 500kg bomb and maybe a pair of smaller ones.

One way to fix this would be to make a '2x 330L Drop Tank' device, and then have it replace the 500kg bomb when used, mounted on the centerline. Even if this dosent look quiet 'right', it should perform as expected - you get the bomb or the tanks, not both.



Shark7 -> RE: So much for any Japanese range advantage (11/28/2010 12:14:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JuanG


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zsolo007

I somehow always thought the D4Y had an internal bomb bay, but even if it didn't have, don't DBs always carry their bombs below the fuselage?
[image]http://www.world-war-2-planes.com/images/Yokosuka-D4Y-Suisei.jpg[/image]



Good picture you found there. It does show the internal bomb bay with the bomb bay doors open. Also if you look at the wings, you can see the hard points with their plumbing hook ups.


Which means the issue was probably weight; it was either the 660L of fuel, or a 500kg bomb and maybe a pair of smaller ones.

One way to fix this would be to make a '2x 330L Drop Tank' device, and then have it replace the 500kg bomb when used, mounted on the centerline. Even if this dosent look quiet 'right', it should perform as expected - you get the bomb or the tanks, not both.


Thinking along the same lines I am actually. [:)] That would give you access to the tanks for recon or ferry missions, but take away the ability to carry both fuel and a bomb for bombing missions.



wdolson -> RE: So much for any Japanese range advantage (11/28/2010 1:51:11 AM)

I believe the D4Y had removable bomb bay doors like the Betty did.  For bombing missions, the doors would be removed, that's probably why there is an open cavity in the picture with no sign of doors.

Bill



John Lansford -> RE: So much for any Japanese range advantage (11/28/2010 2:00:34 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zsolo007

I somehow always thought the D4Y had an internal bomb bay, but even if it didn't have, don't DBs always carry their bombs below the fuselage?
[image]http://www.world-war-2-planes.com/images/Yokosuka-D4Y-Suisei.jpg[/image]



The Dauntless and Stuka both could carry lighter bombs under the wings, but the heaviest bomb was on the centerline.



Shark7 -> RE: So much for any Japanese range advantage (11/28/2010 3:45:57 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: John Lansford


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zsolo007

I somehow always thought the D4Y had an internal bomb bay, but even if it didn't have, don't DBs always carry their bombs below the fuselage?
[image]http://www.world-war-2-planes.com/images/Yokosuka-D4Y-Suisei.jpg[/image]



The Dauntless and Stuka both could carry lighter bombs under the wings, but the heaviest bomb was on the centerline.


The Judy could carry a 500kg bomb centerline with 2 x 30kg bombs on the wings for a maximum load, a 250kg bomb centerline with 2 x 30kg bomb on the wings for the extended range mission. For Kamikaze missions, it carried a single 800kg bomb centerline.



Brady -> RE: So much for any Japanese range advantage (11/28/2010 5:00:29 PM)

Posted By Jim Broshot on another forum:

Francillon compared with two other English language sources:

(1) Aircraft of the Pacific War (Francillon)(1979 edition)
(2) Aichi Val D3A1/2 (Peter C. Smith)(1999)
(3) Aircraft in Profile No. 241 - Aichi D3A ('Val') & Yokosuka D4Y ('Judy') Carrier Bombers of the IJNAF (M. C. Richards and Donald S. Smith)(1974)

D3A1 Model 11
(1) 795 nautical miles (915 statute miles)
(2) 915 miles (1,473km)
(3) same as Francillon
D3A2 Model 22
(1) 730 nautical miles (840 statute miles)
(2) 840 miles (1,352km)
(3) same as Francillon

D4Y1 Model 11
(1) normal: 850 nautical miles (978 statute miles)
maximum: 2,100 nautical miles (2,417 statute miles)
(3) 850 nautical miles (978 statute miles)
D4Y2 Model 12
(1) normal: 790 nautical miles (909 statute miles)
maximum: 1,945 nautical miles (2,239 statute miles)
(3) 820 miles (944 statute miles)
D4Y3 Model 33
(1) normal: 820 nautical miles (944 statute miles)
maximum: 1,560 nautical miles (1,796 statute miles)
(3) 820 miles (944 statute miles)
D4Y4 Model 43
(1) normal: 890 nautical miles (1,024 statute miles)
maximum: 1,400 nautical miles (1,611 statute miles)
(3) 890 nautical miles (1,024 statute miles)  

...................................................................................................

Performance (SBD-5): Maximum speed 252 mph, initial climb 1,500 feet per minute, service ceiling 24,300 feet

Range: As dive-bomber 456 miles - as scout-bomber 773 miles

...................................................................................................

The Judy like the late model Val's outer hard points were wet, the SBD could only go the distance with drop tanks (outer wings) and then in a recon configuration, whear she had no bombs.

[img]http://www.oniva.com/upload/2131/Judy-2.jpg[/img]



Brady -> RE: So much for any Japanese range advantage (11/28/2010 6:16:26 PM)

Wells over at J-Aircraft was kind enough to share this with me:

Range given for Judy 11 in TAIC manual  ( Dec '44 ),

2110 st miles with 411 US gal ( 275 internal + 136 external, no bomb load ) at 147 mph at 1500 ft
1790 st miles ( same as above but at 188 mph cruise speed )

1580 st miles with internal fuel only ( 275 US gal + 550 lbs bomb ) at 157 mph at 1500 ft
1320 st miles ( same as above but at 205 mph cruise speed )

Figures were updated in Mar '45

With 435 US gal ( 275 internal, 160 external ) and 550 lb bomb at 1500 ft
2580 st miles at 155 mph
2280 st miles at 191 mph

or with 172 US gal fuel and 550 lb bomb at 1500 ft

1155 st miles at 155 mph
985 st miles at 198 mph

Image from the March 1945 TAIC below courtisy of Wells at J-Aircraft:

[img]http://www.oniva.com/upload/2131/D4Y_Model_11_1945_TAIC.jpg[/img]



Brady -> RE: So much for any Japanese range advantage (11/28/2010 7:59:19 PM)

SBD Info (courtsy Wells):

http://www.history.navy.mil/branches/hist-ac/sbd-5.pdf



herwin -> RE: So much for any Japanese range advantage (11/28/2010 8:01:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brady

Posted By Jim Broshot on another forum:

Francillon compared with two other English language sources:

(1) Aircraft of the Pacific War (Francillon)(1979 edition)
(2) Aichi Val D3A1/2 (Peter C. Smith)(1999)
(3) Aircraft in Profile No. 241 - Aichi D3A ('Val') & Yokosuka D4Y ('Judy') Carrier Bombers of the IJNAF (M. C. Richards and Donald S. Smith)(1974)

D3A1 Model 11
(1) 795 nautical miles (915 statute miles)
(2) 915 miles (1,473km)
(3) same as Francillon
D3A2 Model 22
(1) 730 nautical miles (840 statute miles)
(2) 840 miles (1,352km)
(3) same as Francillon

D4Y1 Model 11
(1) normal: 850 nautical miles (978 statute miles)
maximum: 2,100 nautical miles (2,417 statute miles)
(3) 850 nautical miles (978 statute miles)
D4Y2 Model 12
(1) normal: 790 nautical miles (909 statute miles)
maximum: 1,945 nautical miles (2,239 statute miles)
(3) 820 miles (944 statute miles)
D4Y3 Model 33
(1) normal: 820 nautical miles (944 statute miles)
maximum: 1,560 nautical miles (1,796 statute miles)
(3) 820 miles (944 statute miles)
D4Y4 Model 43
(1) normal: 890 nautical miles (1,024 statute miles)
maximum: 1,400 nautical miles (1,611 statute miles)
(3) 890 nautical miles (1,024 statute miles)  

...................................................................................................

Performance (SBD-5): Maximum speed 252 mph, initial climb 1,500 feet per minute, service ceiling 24,300 feet

Range: As dive-bomber 456 miles - as scout-bomber 773 miles

...................................................................................................

The Judy like the late model Val's outer hard points were wet, the SBD could only go the distance with drop tanks (outer wings) and then in a recon configuration, whear she had no bombs.

[img]http://www.oniva.com/upload/2131/Judy-2.jpg[/img]


The SBD's recon configuration had a center-line bomb.



Brady -> RE: So much for any Japanese range advantage (11/28/2010 8:06:07 PM)

From the link above:

[img]http://www.oniva.com/upload/2131/SBD-5_data_3.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.oniva.com/upload/2131/SBD-5_data_1.jpg[/img]


[img]http://www.oniva.com/upload/2131/SBD-5_data_2.jpg[/img]







Brady -> RE: So much for any Japanese range advantage (11/29/2010 5:42:15 AM)

After sifting through all that the ranges should be something on the order of, if we asume no drop tanks for either the SBD or the Judy and just internal fuel:

Judy-

It realy depends on how you want to work it, if we use the best range for the SBD above, the one whear the internal tanks are full, it could be argued we should do the same for the Judy, also we should, as is done for the SBD, use the best cruse speed not the one that uses the most fuel.

If we use the worst set of referanced variables for the Judy noted above:

or with 172 US gal fuel and 550 lb bomb at 1500 ft

1155 st miles at 155 mph
985 st miles at 198 mph (aprox 864 nm  with a 25% reduction for warm up and reserve, climb= 648 )

Thats a range of about 8.1 hexes.

If we use the referance with the best fuel load, closer to full, and a better cruse spead:

1580 st miles with internal fuel only ( 275 US gal + 550 lbs bomb ) at 157 mph at 1500 ft (1385 nm)
1320 st miles ( same as above but at 205 mph cruise speed )
 
1385 nm again with a 25% reduction )

Were looking at about 12 Hexes
 
The Higher cruse spead gives us 10 hexes
 
 This also with less than half the potential bomb load of the type.



SBD-

The charts above realy make this easy as the combat radious is plainly listed, in most cases the SBD is taking nearly a full fuel load.

Condation # 3 is the one the game models for extended range:

260 nm is 6 hexes ( posably 7 if the game rounds up).

Condation # 2 is 5 to 6 hexes










Pascal_slith -> RE: So much for any Japanese range advantage (11/29/2010 6:56:07 AM)

Here's the data page on the Judy from the Japanese series "Famous Aircraft of the World". You can infer the loadouts, fuel carried and ranges. Now if those who know Japanese could translate that would be great too...



[image]local://upfiles/9843/180059429F3D47B1A6B07BBD4A015148.jpg[/image]



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