Are these BUGS in 021B???? (Full Version)

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STIENER -> Are these BUGS in 021B???? (11/29/2010 9:37:15 AM)

day 2 in a GC as allies H2H
the a/t and flak assets for the germans are pathetic.

1] the Nijmegan bridge map......road and rail bridges... are the germans supposed to be able to blow them up??[ cant remember my history on this ] because they dont get that option. BUG?

2] Best map. german Flak guns when set up behind the rock walls to fire over them cant fire over them. seems to be other maps too. BUG?

3]Grave map. 60mm mortor takes out flak gun with 8 rds at 595M no LOS.
Nijmegen Bridge. 30 cal MG took out 88 mm flak at 858 m [&:] YES>> 858 m in maybe 10 secs.........you cant tell me theres NOT something wrong with that!??? a LMG at 858m wipes out a flak crew like butter.[&:]
Grafenwagen map. 60 mm mortor takes out flak gun in the woods at 440 m no LOS with 10 rds. THIS NEEDS TO BE FIXED.

4] Nijmegen bridge. 88 Flak at far end of road bridge cant see the 4 story building at the other end of bridge BUT troops in 4 story CAN see flak gun and shoot at it. the flak gun is 32 m high and the 4 story is 41 m high......BUG???

5]Grave map. south bridge VL and north bridge VL allies can only crawl to advance on the right side of the bridge to cross other wise we get the 'no clear path"message. once they get away from the south and north VL's they can run. BUG???




Andrew Williams -> RE: Are these BUGS in 021B???? (11/29/2010 10:07:57 AM)

Strated a H2H Gc today.

had num,erous "No clear path "vox cues... couldn't work out why.... too busy fighting.



RD Oddball -> RE: Are these BUGS in 021B???? (11/29/2010 2:49:49 PM)

1) If you're playing a GC as allies and don't threaten the bridge VL the german AI won't destroy the bridges.
2) Show me a screenshot of what you mean. I'm not seeing this.
3) Thanks for the feedback. We'll add it to the mortar test data we collected to see if it's still falling within the expected range of possibilities. 10 rounds? I'd expect that to be true and operating as it should. If it was 1 shot one kill every time I'd think differently but we're not seeing that.
4) We'll look at it. Thanks for pointing it out.
5) ditto #4.

Thanks Steiner.



xe5 -> RE: Are these BUGS in 021B???? (11/29/2010 4:41:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: STIENER
day 2 in a GC as allies H2H
1] the Nijmegan bridge map......road and rail bridges... are the germans supposed to be able to blow them up??[ cant remember my history on this ] because they dont get that option. BUG?



17.17 BRIDGE DEMOLITION
A bridge can start primed for demolition, or the Germans can prime the bridge by moving a
Battle Group onto the bridge map. Static Forces cannot prime a bridge. If the Allies gain control
of a bridge map, any demolitions are automatically removed.

The Nijmegen bridges start the GC unprimed. If there was a FlaK 88 there then most likely the defending BG was a German static force. Static BGs cannot prime a bridge. Only mobile Axis BGs can prime a bridge. No, the Germans are not supposed to be able to blow an unprimed bridge. Yes, failure to RTFM is frequently a bug in the wetware.

[image]local://upfiles/31774/5D83B9C28EB74860BC31B22B245C3465.jpg[/image]



RD Oddball -> RE: Are these BUGS in 021B???? (11/29/2010 4:42:47 PM)

Thanks Mick.



STIENER -> RE: Are these BUGS in 021B???? (11/29/2010 8:34:51 PM)

thanks Oddball......

1] playing H2H
2] ill send you a screen shot soon
3] this makes mortors MORE powerful than the a/t guns and the flak guns. the 30 cal at 858M must put up red flags for you Oddball?

thanks Mick....altho the manual is pretty sketchy sometimes on DETAIL when it explains some things..[ see a post i wrote a couple of months ago ].....i do remember reading that now! nice feature to the game. RTFM......LMAO



STIENER -> RE: Are these BUGS in 021B???? (11/30/2010 6:37:48 AM)

Honinghutie bridge. minor bridge. [ 1 VL on it ] bridge blown by germans on turn 2. turn 3... 504/82 AB cant cross the minor river as the game manual [ TFM ] suggests. BUG????



Andrew Williams -> RE: Are these BUGS in 021B???? (11/30/2010 9:15:50 AM)

If the Allies have a clear supply line to a major supply depot, Allied engineers will automatically
start to repair the bridge. Minor bridges take 2-3 turns to repair, and major bridges about 6
turns. Repairs proceed as long as the supply line is open and the Allies control all of the bridge
VLs. If the Germans are able to take control of any bridge VLs they can destroy the repair work
and force to Allies to start over (after they recapture all the VLs).


i guess the first question is what are you calling a turn?



Andrew Williams -> RE: Are these BUGS in 021B???? (11/30/2010 9:23:16 AM)

Nijmegen bridges can't be destroyed as there is no detonator.... anyone managed to get a mobile BG on there and secure the Bridge VL's (doubtful in stock campaign)... Does it become primed?

[image]local://upfiles/2239/627B79BF89764244B5B43FFD1B39C4CA.jpg[/image]



STIENER -> RE: Are these BUGS in 021B???? (11/30/2010 9:36:43 AM)

andrew
PG 66 of the manual says that airborne and inf and engineer bg's can cross a minor river after the bridge is blown.....nothing about having to be in supply to do it in that paragraph.



Andrew Williams -> RE: Are these BUGS in 021B???? (11/30/2010 9:49:01 AM)

I just cut that from the manual.... page 66



[image]local://upfiles/2239/3E86314F80ED4ADB8363DD65F58936FE.jpg[/image]



xe5 -> RE: Are these BUGS in 021B???? (11/30/2010 8:01:30 PM)

As posted previously, "improvised crossings" function very differently than described in the manual.



Andrew Williams -> RE: Are these BUGS in 021B???? (11/30/2010 8:24:31 PM)

And not fixed since July... or has it been tested with the 21B BETA patch?

Steiner seems to be quoting manual extracts that i can't find... is there more than one manual in circulation?


My manual does say "The Stragic Fight"

It used to be headed up with The Longest Day



xe5 -> RE: Are these BUGS in 021B???? (11/30/2010 10:23:10 PM)

After a quick test it looks like the old, unintended 'improvised crossing' on blown minor bridge maps has been changed. These situations now act like blown major bridge maps, ie. deployment/strat movement of your BG is limited to whatever side of the river you enter from, regardless if your deploy zone extends across the river.

Stiener is correct. The section of the manual he's referring to (p.66) does indicate that blown minor bridges can be 'crossed' with some active roster penalties...

"Infantry, Airborne, and Engineer BGs can improvise a crossing of a minor river or canal, even when the bridge is out, and thus can leave the map with the blown bridge in any direction. Armored, Armored Infantry, and Recon BGs cannot do this. If a Battle Group improvises a crossing of a destroyed minor bridge, they will lose all guns and vehicles in their active team slots (they’re returned to the Forcepool) and will not be able to field any guns or vehicles from their Forcepool until they are able to achieve a supply line equal to what they had before they made the crossing (or at least a supply line to a minor supply depot)."



STIENER -> RE: Are these BUGS in 021B???? (12/1/2010 4:09:50 AM)

Jesus......i cant believe im actually right!! [:'(]

andrew ...you just didnt read far enough in TFM as Mick would say.

so where does this leave us? BUG or NOT A BUG????? i dont quite understand what mick is saying "the old, unintended 'improvised crossing' on blown minor bridge maps has been changed." ? the manual says what it says as above..... unless the Infantry, Airborne, and Engineer BGs have to be in major supply first as the 1st paragragh that andrew quoted says, and the manual is poorly written.

i suppose the matrix CC team leader might shed some light on this.. dont you think?

2 things i noticed about Micks "split deploy"post was Matrix's CC team leader didnt reply to it......
and that the guards armour div is NOT supposed to be able to make an improvised crossing of a minor river, according to the manual as above. so is that a BUG?? did they fix it??



Andrew Williams -> RE: Are these BUGS in 021B???? (12/1/2010 4:29:28 AM)



I'll wait to hear how it's really supposed to work.... never could test because we've never been told.



Andrew Williams -> RE: Are these BUGS in 021B???? (12/1/2010 4:38:10 AM)

moving from a Blown minor bridge at son onto Best.

Troops, not armour ort At/artillery could deploy both sides of river at Best.

[image]local://upfiles/2239/A57C7241E00E4538B3CF71265A117354.jpg[/image]



Tejszd -> RE: Are these BUGS in 021B???? (12/1/2010 4:41:51 AM)

STIENER you are right the Guards division should not have been able to cross thus Mick's ""the old, unintended 'improvised crossing' on blown minor bridge maps". That has now been fixed but it looks like the fix took away all river crossing capability thus the "has been changed" part of the sentence. So not allowing any BG to cross is a bug based on what is written in the manual....



Andrew Williams -> RE: Are these BUGS in 021B???? (12/1/2010 4:43:14 AM)

Moving Armour from Eindhoven to Best.

Armour was available... but no teams could deploy north of the river , even though I had deplo area and VL's.

[image]local://upfiles/2239/28C26AEC3EDF49219D8B041D635FD23D.jpg[/image]



Andrew Williams -> RE: Are these BUGS in 021B???? (12/1/2010 4:49:51 AM)

Leaving the US Ab on Best and move armour in from Eindhoven.

weird Active forcepool witnh Brits in reserve BG.

When they deployed nothing could be positioned north of the river ... except one lone Sherman ?????

[image]local://upfiles/2239/3C6EFFA1ED7845A093274DF1DE57F04A.jpg[/image]



Andrew Williams -> RE: Are these BUGS in 021B???? (12/1/2010 4:51:36 AM)

the sherman???

[image]local://upfiles/2239/FE090569C8924821AD4A5213A20995D5.jpg[/image]



Andrew Williams -> RE: Are these BUGS in 021B???? (12/1/2010 4:55:23 AM)

I cannot deploy the US troops at all if the Armoured BG attacks.


If the armour just moves to best, not attacks.

I can deplopy US paras.

No brits at all can deploy north of the river.

Us can deploy either side.


So, that is how it's working at the moment..





Tejszd -> RE: Are these BUGS in 021B???? (12/1/2010 4:59:42 AM)

quote:

2] Best map. german Flak guns when set up behind the rock walls to fire over them cant fire over them. seems to be other maps too. BUG?


STIENER the above is not a bug look at the attached screen shot. If you are beside the hedge or stone fence you can shoot on a downward angle. Farther away you can not so the LOS should be blocked like it is. If you are farther away but aim up, like at the 2 level building LOS works as it should....

[image]local://upfiles/27099/3950CCDF491C4520AE3B0D2231C565E9.jpg[/image]



STIENER -> RE: Are these BUGS in 021B???? (12/1/2010 5:33:21 AM)

thanks Tejszd...my opponant was having issues setting up his guns on that map.......i guess he wasnt doing it right......the flak and a/t guns still suck super bad tho...[ see my other post ] .but im the only guy [ plus my opponant at the moment] who think so ....for some strange reason FN reason. personally ill take on anyone with mortors and they can have all the a/t guns they want......ill win, and if its not changed its gonna be another nail in this games coffin......unless someone....not me..makes a mod for it.

ever notice its just us 3 replying amd posting for changes in this poorly built game??????? wierd eh?????? [8|]



Tejszd -> RE: Are these BUGS in 021B???? (12/1/2010 6:10:51 AM)

True it is pretty slow for traffic.

Keep on giving feedback and if you can do screen shots it would help. I think mortars a bit too effective against guns but I have also sometimes wasted lots of shells so I don't see it as a show stopper like you. But at least you are here fighting for what you believe will make things better....[8D]



xe5 -> RE: Are these BUGS in 021B???? (12/1/2010 3:51:04 PM)

Neat composite you did for those gun LOS. Odd how the LOS to the L2 bldg seems to be hindered by the tree shadow rather than the tree top. Dont see anything in the terrain coding (crops & stone fence) that would cause that.

schreck - re: the pic in post# 17 - did you remove those 2 tanks from the active roster or did the game?

I mispoke earlier re: improvised crossings. My 'quick tests' involved meeting engagements on blown minor bridge maps not attacking onto them when enemy-controlled. Something I noticed after posting #14 above was that on the first meeting engagement battle all of my units were confined to the side of the river I entered the map from, on the second battle, I was able to deploy infantry across the river. Tanks continued to be confined to the side of the river the map was entered from. But even after my infantry tool exit VLs on the "far" side of the river, my BG still couldnt strat move through them.

After patch .02b I only tested to find out if the 'big' bug allowing BGs to cross some blown major/minor bridges still existed. It didnt occur to see if changes had been made to 'improvised crossings'. Or even if there were unknown facets involving 'improvised crossings' in the release version that had yet to be documented. All in all, worth some further investigation.



Andrew Williams -> RE: Are these BUGS in 021B???? (12/1/2010 6:50:00 PM)

post #17

the game removed the 2 Tanks.

The 130th Brigade BG  had moved to Son from Eindhoven.

Obviously it could not move it's armour across the Blown Eindhoven ? Bridge.

But when it moved to Best seemingly via the North and South Exits it could not deploy it's armour North or South of the River.



Trying different scenarios ie Attack Best/Move to Best - Leave US AB there/ Move US AB out returns different results on where and who can deploy and by which (north or South) Exits they use.

It seems quite inconsistent about who can deploy which side of the river...

Even get the case of NO US being able to deploy (all Greyed out) even though they are in situ.



Dundradal -> RE: Are these BUGS in 021B???? (12/1/2010 7:14:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: STIENER

ever notice its just us 3 replying amd posting for changes in this poorly built game??????? wierd eh?????? [8|]


There are quite a few of us reading the posts.

I'd argue against it being a "poorly built game." There are clearly some issues but this isn't Battlecruiser 3000. Things are being done to fix the problems as patches are being released, although of course we'd all like them faster, but with a small outfit you have to expect things taking time.



xe5 -> RE: Are these BUGS in 021B???? (12/1/2010 7:16:00 PM)

Not sure why the game would need to remove the 2 tanks because they should conceivably be able to use the 'to Best South' VL on Son to move to Best without needing to cross the blown bridge on Son.

What Im consistently seeing after blowing the bridges at Best/Son, is that when I move XXX Corps BGs onto Best or Son from Eindhoven, either as attackers or in support, on the first turn after moving, any/all XXX Corps BG units are confined on the side of the river that their BG entered the map. All US AB units are able to deploy on either side. However, on the second turn after moving XXX Corps BGs onto Son/Best, both the XXX Corps infantry units and US AB units can deploy on either side of the blown bridge. Only the XXX Corps vehicle/gun units continue to be confined to the side their BG entered from. But, even though the XXX Corps infantry units can deploy on either side, in the following strat turn, the XXX Corps BGs remain unable to cross the blown bridges by exiting Best/Son via the Allied-controlled 'to Son Heath' VLs.

Im also testing the "# Force retreat on bridge demolition "NO" option". I like that the battle continues until the 15 min timer expires rather than ending 10 secs after bridge demolition. Allowing the Axis static BGs to remain in play provides a needed play balance boost for the Axis. My only concern is that by controlling the blown bridge VL(s), a static BG could prevent easily repair from starting if the Allied BG were confined to the 'wrong' side of the bridge.



xe5 -> RE: Are these BUGS in 021B???? (12/1/2010 8:34:26 PM)

All 4 Allied BGs on Best & Son moved there from Eindhoven after the bridges were blown on turn 1.
The Allies control the 'to Son North' and 'to Son South' exit VLs on Best.
The Allies control the 'to Best North' and 'to Best South' exit Vls on Son.

The Allied infantry BG on Son can move to Best, but the Allied armor BG on Son cant move to Best.
When the infantry BG on Son moves or attacks to Best, the available armor/gun units in its forcepool are greyed out, and can only deploy its infantry north of the river. The armor BG on Best can deploy its infantry on either side of the river but can only deploy its vehicles/guns on the south side.

Likewise, the Allied infantry BG on Best can move to Son, but the Allied armor BG cant move to Son.
When the infantry BG on Best moves or attacks to Son, the available armor/gun units in its forcepool are greyed out, and can only deploy its infantry north of the river. The armor BG on Son can deploy its infantry on either side of the river but can only deploy its vehicles/guns on the south side.

In both cases the effect on the moving infantry BGs is very similar to how the manual describes an 'improvised crossing'. The outstanding issues are:

1. Why are the infantry BGs allowed to make an 'improvised crossing' by moving up/down river between Best and Son, but not make an 'improvised crossing' to Son Heath?

2. Why cant the armor BGs on each map utilize the 'to XXX South' VLs to move up/down river?

3. Why cant the infantry teamss in the infantry BGs moving between Best and Son deploy on either side of the river?

4. Why cant the infantry BGs moving between Best and Son keep/acquire tanks in their active roster but only deploy them on the south side of the river?


[image]local://upfiles/31774/766A2577C7CC4CC3AE64DE1E89CB5C38.jpg[/image]



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