How to use the Aircobras? (Full Version)

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vinnie71 -> How to use the Aircobras? (11/30/2010 11:39:32 AM)

One of my main 'problems' as an Allied player is how to use the Aircobra. It seems to be a sturdy enough fighter but is really a sitting duck for Japanese guns. The P-400 with 20 mm gun is a bit better and I have used it with decent results in the front lines. Its a pity that such a numerous fighter just sits there...

So how do you use the Aircobras (original version)?
Are later versions of '43 any better?

Truth is that for now I only employ them either as trainers or as CAP over ports which only Japanese bombers without escorts can reach. So any other ideas?

Thanks in advance!



Mundy -> RE: How to use the Aircobras? (11/30/2010 12:59:43 PM)

If no better fighters are available, you gotta make do.  They've been handled roughly all the way back to UV.

Personally, I treat them like Skyraiders (or Maulers [:D]), and use them as a less vulnerable strike plane.

Ed-



EUBanana -> RE: How to use the Aircobras? (11/30/2010 1:05:27 PM)

They make good bomber stoppers, a bit like the Beaufighter. Beaufighters are pretty bad fighters but awesome bomber slaughterers, Airacobras arent quite as good but they do murder Netties very well.

I've tried strafing with them but they don't seem to do much. Maybe against barges the big gun will work.

And as has been said, you gotta make do.

There is actually a need for training a/c in AE, so I suspect that is what I'll be using Airacobras for in the later war- filling up west coast training squadrons.



Feltan -> RE: How to use the Aircobras? (11/30/2010 1:12:20 PM)

I have had a few squadrons of them in Port Moresby through 1943, and they have actually given a fair accounting of themselves. They will not be considered by me to be top notch airframes; however, if you scramble a few dozen to handle an incoming raid the Japanese might disagree with my own appraisal.

Regards,
Feltan



Mundy -> RE: How to use the Aircobras? (11/30/2010 1:12:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: EUBanana
There is actually a need for training a/c in AE, so I suspect that is what I'll be using Airacobras for in the later war- filling up west coast training squadrons.




Which is entirely historical.  If I remember correctly, in his autobiography, Yeager mentions being trained for fighters in them.

They were definitely a step up from the Wirraways, before they got bomberized. (I always thought an "emergency CAP" option would have been nice for light bombers.  You'll pay dearly against escorts, but if you have nothing else...)

It's a pity the 39's performance wasn't that hot at altitude.  I always thought it was one of the nicest looking aircraft of the war.  Very clean lines.

Ed-



Sardaukar -> RE: How to use the Aircobras? (11/30/2010 2:21:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mundy

quote:

ORIGINAL: EUBanana
There is actually a need for training a/c in AE, so I suspect that is what I'll be using Airacobras for in the later war- filling up west coast training squadrons.


They were definitely a step up from the Wirraways, before they got bomberized. (I always thought an "emergency CAP" option would have been nice for light bombers.  You'll pay dearly against escorts, but if you have nothing else...)

Ed-


This would be bit similar to USN doctrine of using Dauntlesse as anti-torpedo bomber CAP/screen. In fact, quite a few IJN carrier attack planes were shot down by SBDs.



Mundy -> RE: How to use the Aircobras? (11/30/2010 2:43:53 PM)

That's pretty much what I had in mind.  Like I said, one should pay dearly for this if "real" fighters are about (unless your name is Vejtasa).

The Aussies have nothing, otherwise at the start.

Ed-



WLockard -> RE: How to use the Aircobras? (11/30/2010 4:57:30 PM)

P-39s have better stats than P-40Es.



vonSchnitter -> RE: How to use the Aircobras? (11/30/2010 5:22:18 PM)

Just a few pieces of historical fact:
The p-39 was designed around a 37mm cannon - an oldsmobile adaptation of a rather common gun. The low velocity 37mm gun was fancied as a pretty potent bomber buster - repeat facied.
Without reference to the finer points: The p-39 used pretty much the same power plant and fineries as the contemporary p-40s - with pretty much the same performance parameters.
When offered as lend-lease to the RAF the same rejected the P-39 pretty much out of hand - if need be I think I have the RAF evaluation report somewhere - but from recollection mostly because of inferior climb rate and service ceiling - there was a little less ocean between GB and the continent at the time - and the limeys accepeted a compromise (replacing the 37mm with a 20mm Oerlikon type gun of similar design (low muzzle velocity) of BoB vintage 109s.
Well. I just guess you have some recollection of the the P-40s fate in Europe/Med ? Right, a fighter bomber. Used by the RAF for the lack of Hurries in theater which could haul bombs and had the extra punch of 20mm cannon when strafing.
Or simply put: the RAF considered the P-39 and the P-40 as mostly inferior to their own designs.
Short of some "Checker Tail" PR - pretty close to the Flying Tigers stuff - the RAF got it rght,

Anyway: The 20mm P-39 designs for the RAF ended up as P-400s in SWPac - minus their RAF Oxygen supply bottle connections and refill system - alien to the AAF - which limited them to an altitude below 12000 ft.
Using them on strafing runs with low exp pilots is an option.

The P-39Ds and onward versions went mostly to Russia on LendLease. Guess what - some of the highest scoring russian aces - got there in P-39s.



DeriKuk -> RE: How to use the Aircobras? (11/30/2010 6:54:17 PM)

quote:

I've tried strafing with them but they don't seem to do much.


I've had some success in getting them to strafe submarines. It may not sink the sub, but it keeps it honest.

Otherwise, the P39s go to the CONUS to flesh out the training squadrons of the IV HQs, freeing up other types for front-line fighting. The Allied player should constantly shuffle obsolescent crates to training duties, while keeping the fighting groups supplied with the best available airframes.



crsutton -> RE: How to use the Aircobras? (11/30/2010 7:13:44 PM)

They also work for barge inteception where you have local air superiority. Set them at 100 feet and keep them close at hand and they will on occasion intercept those pesky barges and shoot them up pretty well. Unfortunately, it seems that you have to have strafing skills up near 70 for this to happen regularly. Kind of silly really. Otherwise, once I get other aircraft types they are used for training. They are also excellent for CAP in rear bases beyond enemy escort range. They will, as mentioned, tear up unescorted bombers.



Xxzard -> RE: How to use the Aircobras? (11/30/2010 7:37:46 PM)

Then of course, even buffaloes tear up unescorted bombers. But you do get quite a lot of the p-39's so best use them for something.



vinnie71 -> RE: How to use the Aircobras? (11/30/2010 7:46:21 PM)

Good. I seem to be on the same wavelength as most. The strafing run could be a nice option.

What about later mark Aircobras? Are they any good as fighters?



John Lansford -> RE: How to use the Aircobras? (11/30/2010 7:57:16 PM)

I used mine in places like Darwin, where the Bettys would show up unescorted, and against shipping traffic and for ground support.  Sending them up as interceptors or CAP is just asking for trouble unless they're all  you've got.  It's late '44 in my game now and I've still got a few P-39 squadrons I use for ground support.



Nemo121 -> RE: How to use the Aircobras? (11/30/2010 8:05:56 PM)

The other usage for P-39s is as the low group in a high-low sandwich to counter sweeping Zeroes. It is tough on the P-39s but, overall, it allows the combination of P-39s and P-40s to get 1.5 to 2 : 1 kill ratios vs Zeroes and Oscars. Just last turn in my game vs Mike I shot down something like 19 Zeroes and 11 Bettys in return for 4 P-39/P-400s and one P-40B through use of the high-low sandwich approach.



Sheytan -> RE: How to use the Aircobras? (11/30/2010 8:10:16 PM)

But the Russians loved them from what I have read. Believe it or not I actually use them for naval attack set to 100 feet.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vonSchnitter

Just a few pieces of historical fact:
The p-39 was designed around a 37mm cannon - an oldsmobile adaptation of a rather common gun. The low velocity 37mm gun was fancied as a pretty potent bomber buster - repeat facied.
Without reference to the finer points: The p-39 used pretty much the same power plant and fineries as the contemporary p-40s - with pretty much the same performance parameters.
When offered as lend-lease to the RAF the same rejected the P-39 pretty much out of hand - if need be I think I have the RAF evaluation report somewhere - but from recollection mostly because of inferior climb rate and service ceiling - there was a little less ocean between GB and the continent at the time - and the limeys accepeted a compromise (replacing the 37mm with a 20mm Oerlikon type gun of similar design (low muzzle velocity) of BoB vintage 109s.
Well. I just guess you have some recollection of the the P-40s fate in Europe/Med ? Right, a fighter bomber. Used by the RAF for the lack of Hurries in theater which could haul bombs and had the extra punch of 20mm cannon when strafing.
Or simply put: the RAF considered the P-39 and the P-40 as mostly inferior to their own designs.
Short of some "Checker Tail" PR - pretty close to the Flying Tigers stuff - the RAF got it rght,

Anyway: The 20mm P-39 designs for the RAF ended up as P-400s in SWPac - minus their RAF Oxygen supply bottle connections and refill system - alien to the AAF - which limited them to an altitude below 12000 ft.
Using them on strafing runs with low exp pilots is an option.

The P-39Ds and onward versions went mostly to Russia on LendLease. Guess what - some of the highest scoring russian aces - got there in P-39s.





Capt. Harlock -> RE: How to use the Aircobras? (11/30/2010 8:17:14 PM)

quote:

But the Russians loved them from what I have read.


Very true. In fact, that's why they came out with the P-63 King Cobra. (Nobody but the Soviets wanted them.)



Nemo121 -> RE: How to use the Aircobras? (11/30/2010 8:25:13 PM)

Quite a bit of that had to do with Soviet fighter doctrine and the close support nature of a lot of the fighting there. If you were going to be doing a lot of strafing then something with a 37mm cannon would be damned useful.



crsutton -> RE: How to use the Aircobras? (11/30/2010 9:13:34 PM)

Nemo has it here. The later version of the P39 the redesigned king cobra was an excellent "hot" little fighter and the Soviets were the prime beneficiaries of this plane. The US army really had no need for a short legged fighter in 1944 which was the biggest defect of the P-39s and later variants. The P-39 did not have the range to project air power very far into enemy air space. The air force had long range plans and wanted long range fighters.



jazman -> RE: How to use the Aircobras? (12/1/2010 3:49:06 AM)

I believe the Russians stripped out the wing guns (four of 'em) to improve maneuverability. They also liked to fly at lower altitudes and "turn 'n burn" and do ground support, and the Cobra was suited to that.



Shark7 -> RE: How to use the Aircobras? (12/1/2010 4:19:17 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Offworlder

One of my main 'problems' as an Allied player is how to use the Aircobra. It seems to be a sturdy enough fighter but is really a sitting duck for Japanese guns. The P-400 with 20 mm gun is a bit better and I have used it with decent results in the front lines. Its a pity that such a numerous fighter just sits there...

So how do you use the Aircobras (original version)?
Are later versions of '43 any better?

Truth is that for now I only employ them either as trainers or as CAP over ports which only Japanese bombers without escorts can reach. So any other ideas?

Thanks in advance!


To uses, both of them in the training role...

1. Set them to 90% train behind the lines, rotate your pilots to the reserve pool as they get to the point you want them.

2. Put them on the front lines as cap and let them train Japanese pilots (my favorite.) [:D]

While I'm being a bit humorous here, the Aircobra is just not good at dogfighting Japanese fighters. Ground attack might be a better role, or training.



herwin -> RE: How to use the Aircobras? (12/1/2010 8:52:22 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mundy

quote:

ORIGINAL: EUBanana
There is actually a need for training a/c in AE, so I suspect that is what I'll be using Airacobras for in the later war- filling up west coast training squadrons.




Which is entirely historical.  If I remember correctly, in his autobiography, Yeager mentions being trained for fighters in them.

They were definitely a step up from the Wirraways, before they got bomberized. (I always thought an "emergency CAP" option would have been nice for light bombers.  You'll pay dearly against escorts, but if you have nothing else...)

It's a pity the 39's performance wasn't that hot at altitude.  I always thought it was one of the nicest looking aircraft of the war.  Very clean lines.

Ed-


It was a pretty plane, but a fighter with a door indicates the chief engineer had lost the pitch on the way to the plate.



JeffroK -> RE: How to use the Aircobras? (12/1/2010 9:21:11 AM)

I sent at a Fighter Group of P39 into SE Asia.

The RAF is so short of fighters anything is of assistance. Plus they make a good ground attack platform.

AND, you have a FG there which can upgrade to P47 etc etc.



Mundy -> RE: How to use the Aircobras? (12/1/2010 12:56:29 PM)

An excellent shot of its lines.

Ed-

[image]local://upfiles/6942/9EE6A7A15BA34549BFD4B6BF522C2ED6.jpg[/image]



Walloc -> RE: How to use the Aircobras? (12/1/2010 1:44:34 PM)

Hmm, interresting that its almost all seems to dislike the P-39. When i compare the P-39 vs P-40 results in my PBEMs. The kill ration of my P-39 is significantly better than the P-40s vs Zero's/Oscars. Mostly cuz less gets lost.
Key is never to go high, as in not above 10k in my experience. 7-9k is perfect for them in my experience.

Kind regards,

Rasmus



Walloc -> RE: How to use the Aircobras? (12/1/2010 2:01:40 PM)

Just went back and checked some of the bigger battles where i had both figthers vs Zeros of KB.
In one battle where i had 5 squadrons of 3 P-40 and 2 P-39 on sweep(thanks for allowing that) vs 58 Zeros of KB initial quality pilots. 85%(17 in all) of the downed Zeroes was from the 2 P-39 squadrons. On average the P-39 only lost about half of the losses than of the P-40 squadrons. So it cant be that only the P-39 was engaged. Ofc this is a single example and one have to becarefull with that. Non the less its not that far from what i tend to see.
My pilot quality was about the same.

Kind regards,

Rasmus



vinnie71 -> RE: How to use the Aircobras? (12/1/2010 4:58:58 PM)

Well had to commit the P-400 in the advance defence of the DEI, and they seem to be holding their own against Oscars and the occasional Zero. The only P-39s in the 'frontline' are three squadrons at Tulagi (no fear of escort fighters as yet) and 2 squadrons in the Aleutinian islands. Since I haven't enough Warhawks to send to India as yet, I'm thinking of converting 3 squadrons to P-39s and send them to patrol the skies in the area around Calcutta where there seem to be numerous unescorted Betty raids. As for the rest, they're either training of piling up in the pool...

At the cost of sounding fastidous (sorry) has anyone used the upgraded 1943 Aircobra in action as yet? From the stats it didn't seem that impressive but maybe some have found some use for it...



Alpha77 -> RE: How to use the Aircobras? (12/1/2010 9:31:49 PM)

Well the US has not much other "better" fighter in 1942, or have they ? They have P40 and P39, some P400. So they need to do their work. Well you get some P38 also but not many........

I was quite amazed that the US used these modells so much, as I know that Luftwaffe pilots held them for easy prey (at least P40s in Africa). [X(] And the Luftwaffe in NA flew mostly standard BF109s no FW190s

EDIT: Now after July/Aug 42 in my game and the Jap airforce in some theaters weakened also my pilots are a bit better now, even these modells do their share of shooting down Japs. However Zeros are still much better. But I even lost some better Hurries in Burma to Oscars, so......



Zebedee -> RE: How to use the Aircobras? (12/1/2010 9:47:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alpha77
I was quite amazed that the US used these modells so much, as I know that Luftwaffe pilots held them for easy prey (at least P40s in Africa). [X(] And the Luftwaffe in NA flew mostly standard BF109s no FW190s


239 Wing RAF claimed a 3:1 kill rate against 109s with their Kittyhawks. Even allowing for over-claiming that's 'prey' with some teeth :)



Alpha77 -> RE: How to use the Aircobras? (12/1/2010 10:02:13 PM)

In Germany we say "Die Ausnahme bestätigt die Regel", the exception proves the rule :)

US built P-40 Tomahawk/Kittyhawk also went to the DAF as it was unsuited to European operations which were generally fought at much higher altitudes and against more formidable opposition. The P-40 was used initially as an air superiority fighter but it was also adapted (and found to be ideally suited) to ground attack missions.
The DAF always outnumbered its Axis opponents and concentrated on long-range interdiction and direct tactical Eighth Army support. Unfortunately these tactics meant that the faster Messerschmitt Bf 109s of Jagdgeschwader 27 usually had the advantage of height and surprise over the low-level, slow-flying DAF fighters and losses were correspondingly heavy.

n 1942, the DAF reorganized its tactics and upgraded its inventory. Spitfires were eventually assigned in the air superiority role, becoming operational in August 1942, which allowed the DAF to finally turn the tide.

Well from Wiki [:'(]

And maybe your figures are from the time when they converted to Spitfires and also had even higher numerical superiority in this theatre....



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