German victory conditions to easy or will The Red Army be strong enough? (Full Version)

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Divineputte -> German victory conditions to easy or will The Red Army be strong enough? (12/6/2010 9:37:58 PM)

Hi,

First let me say I havent been so excited over a computer game release since Wow which was like 6 years ago. So excited so I even decided to create my first thread on the forum IŽve been lurking around in for at least 6 months.

Just a short background so if I ever decide to play PBEM you will know something about me.
I live in Stockholm, Sweden. IŽve played strategy games since my teenage years (Now approaching 40). Especially World in flames, Empire in Arms, Squadleader and The Gamers OCS system various titles. Also a bit of FitE/SE Europa games.

Found my way to Matrixgames when I heard of Computer Wif a couple of years ago. Ive bought a handful of games here like Crown of Glory, Battles of the Bulge, Toaw 3, WitP but havent really played any of them as much as they deserve. Time is always unfortunately a precious resource. But I will spend a lot of time on WitE I can feel it in my bones (Quitting Wow will help :D)

Now to my question:

On one of the Screenshots one can see what I assume are the victory conditions for the "Grand Campaign" it states clearly that for the Russians to win they need to get to Berlin.

From various AAR on the forum it seems likely that in many games the Germans will capture Leningrad in 41 and Moscow in 42. Not sure if this will be enough for a German minor victory but I guess it might be.

What if the Germans take Leningrad, Moscow and some of the South and then goes all defensive. Building lots of fortifications keeping a mobile reserve ( a bit like Manstein would have wanted it as I understand it) and generally avoid all the major mistakes the Germans did (Stalingrad, Kursk and so on) will the Russian army grow strong enough to be able to get to Berlin in time? If not all the russian player can hope for is a draw.

I guess what I object against slightly is the idea that anything but knocking Russia out of the war could ever be considered a German victory. Occupying Moscow wont help much if you have the Americans and the English in Berlin I guess :). Whereas knocking Russia out and putting another 50 divisions in western Europe might have made an invasion of Europe more or less impossible.

I would like the victorycondition to force the German to remain active and aggresive and not go defensive and passive. After all time was not on the German side. If you want to go for a decisive victory I guess you will have to be agressive but how about a minor victory? Also I feel that maybe the russians should be able to get a minor victory without having to get all the way to Berlin. (As in just staying alive and tying up a lot of germans could be considered a minor victory)

Obviously havent played the game so I might be all wrong about everything. Still opinions would be nice especially from "Beta" people who might know better how well the russians can do.
I think historically that the russians would have had problems doing as well as they did without the "help" the Germans and their highest leader gave them.

Ok enough of my speculating. Let me just end this with my thanks to everyone involved in making this game that portrays the most epic of all wars showing humanity at its worst and maybe sometimes at its best.

Take care,




kirkgregerson -> RE: German victory conditions to easy or will The Red Army be strong enough? (12/6/2010 9:45:23 PM)

I hear you about the excitement factor! Is it wrong that lately I've been more excited about the release of WitE than making out with my gf? [:'(]

Don't get me wrong, she's still hot IMO. Just something about this game that I've been waiting for all my strategic gaming life. I really need something to wash that bad taste in my mouth that HOI3 left. [:(] Really a RT strategy game? Really?



karonagames -> RE: German victory conditions to easy or will The Red Army be strong enough? (12/6/2010 10:02:38 PM)

quote:

From various AAR on the forum it seems likely that in many games the Germans will capture Leningrad in 41 and Moscow in 42. Not sure if this will be enough for a German minor victory but I guess it might be.

What if the Germans take Leningrad, Moscow and some of the South and then goes all defensive. Building lots of fortifications keeping a mobile reserve ( a bit like Manstein would have wanted it as I understand it) and generally avoid all the major mistakes the Germans did (Stalingrad, Kursk and so on) will the Russian army grow strong enough to be able to get to Berlin in time? If not all the russian player can hope for is a draw.


The game will only end if the Axis get a Decisive Victory, which broadly speaking is achieved by occupying the length of the Volga. If they don't achieve that, then the game changes to preventing the SU from achieving their decisive victory.

The answer to this question will only be seen when several PBEM 1941 campaigns gave been played to completion, as no campaign will duplicate history, due to the hindsight factor, and the likelihood is that the Axis will have 20+ more divisions at the start of 1943 than were available historically and then we will start to see the answer to the "what if Stalingrad never happened" question.

If the Axis takes the pressure of the SU, and allows them to build up a mechanised/artillery juggernaut, the SU will break up any defensive line, and potentially attrition away any mobile reserves, so the answer to that part of the question is that, yes, the Red army will grow strong enough, and attrition will weaken the Axis so they will have to fight hard to hold Berlin and get better than a draw.



Flaviusx -> RE: German victory conditions to easy or will The Red Army be strong enough? (12/6/2010 10:05:25 PM)

The Red Army, properly managed, will turn into a monster and grind the Wehrmacht to powder.

Check out my 43 AAR in these forums.



Tophat1815 -> RE: German victory conditions to easy or will The Red Army be strong enough? (12/6/2010 10:11:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kirkgregerson

I hear you about the excitement factor! Is it wrong that lately I've been more excited about the release of WitE than making out with my gf? [:'(]

Don't get me wrong, she's still hot IMO. Just something about this game that I've been waiting for all my strategic gaming life. I really need something to wash that bad taste in my mouth that HOI3 left. [:(] Really a RT strategy game? Really?



Never,but never put something like this in print anywhere! She will know,they always know and you will suffer for it. Might take years,but they bide their time and when you least expect it,it will happen. On the positive side of things she is just at girlfriend status now. [:-][;)][:D]



Divineputte -> RE: German victory conditions to easy or will The Red Army be strong enough? (12/6/2010 10:44:32 PM)

Kirkgregerson: Dont have a gf for the moment. On the balance I guess I would rather have one then WitE. But yes the excitement. I should sleep now but I feel like a six year old before christmas [:)] sleep feels impossible.

Flaviusx: Yes ive read it. Well done. I guess weŽll see how things go when we have more human vs human games but all you say sounds promising. Guess my post was a bit partial since I also prefer to play the russians. [8|]



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