Support units - artillery (Full Version)

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DBeves -> Support units - artillery (12/10/2010 9:37:49 PM)

If I read the manual correctly - you cannot manually attach artillery support units to combat units only to fortified zones.

Does this mean they can be auto assigned to combat units ie if the assignment option is not locked or does the auto assign also not attach to combat units ?

I dont get the rationale behind this rule - even less so if its only the manual assignment you cant do ..




jhdeerslayer -> RE: Support units - artillery (12/10/2010 9:40:30 PM)

I took this as you have to attach to the HQ and the combat units get its artillery that way.



Flaviusx -> RE: Support units - artillery (12/10/2010 9:42:30 PM)

What it means is that for most combat units (except forts as you noted) they will be added only as reserves during the course of combat. The better your leadership, the stronger the possibility of reinforcement.

So far as the Soviets are concerned, they heavily centralized use of artillery as a matter of doctrine and preferred to manage these at a HQ level. Eventually they would form divisions with these subunits. They really shouldn't be directly attached to ordinary combat formations from a doctrinal standpoint. Not sure what the justification here would be from a German standpoint.

If and when we get a War in the West I would personally argue that British and American divisions should be allowed direct artillery attachments, but that argument will have to wait for a while, heh.



ComradeP -> RE: Support units - artillery (12/10/2010 9:43:24 PM)

The automatic movement of support units is between HQ's, it doesn't affect those attached to combat units.

Artillery units can only join a battle through a HQ making its support unit check.



DBeves -> RE: Support units - artillery (12/10/2010 9:47:02 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Deerslayer

I took this as you have to attach to the HQ and the combat units get its artillery that way.


Thats partly what I am looking for an answer on - the manual only says you cant attach artillery support directly to combat units - only fortified zones - it doesnt confirm or deny - and I havent seen any artillery support units participate in battle.

Again - I dont get the rationale if it happens automatically why you cant do manually - and also the manual is not clear on whether it happens autoamatically or not.

Another point is if you set the preference screen to all HQs locked as far as support units go - if artillery is allowed to be assigned to combat units automatically and not manually - does the lock preference mean all your artillery units sit the entire game out cause you cant assign manually.

I am sure that corps and army level artillery was assigned to support combat operatioins

Sorry - but this has me baffled completley



Flaviusx -> RE: Support units - artillery (12/10/2010 9:50:52 PM)

If your headquarters are locked, subunits attached to them will remain there and not be distributed. Those subunits would only be able to participate in combats related to combat formations attached to the HQ in question.

If you unlock the HQs, the subunits will be distributed throughout the HQ heirarchy in proportion to the various headquarter priorities. This occurs at the end of the turn, note. So they still would only partipate in combats for combat formations of the HQ they are attached to at the beginning of the turn.




DBeves -> RE: Support units - artillery (12/10/2010 9:56:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

The automatic movement of support units is between HQ's, it doesn't affect those attached to combat units.

Artillery units can only join a battle through a HQ making its support unit check.



Edit .... sorry comrade you are typing faster than me

am I misunderstanding the terminology here - are support and attachment two different concepts ? I think that may be my misunderstanding here ...



ComradeP -> RE: Support units - artillery (12/10/2010 9:59:22 PM)

Support units being send out by HQ's are not "attached", even temporarily, to a combat unit. They come from and return to HQ's and have no on-map presence of any kind. Flavio has explained what the locked HQ feature means in practice. The locked HQ feature in no way hinders participation of that HQ's support unit in a battle.

The crucial difference between support units attached to a HQ and support units attached to a combat unit is that those attached to a HQ might help any of the units commanded by that HQ, provided the leader makes his rolls, whilst those directly attached to combat units always help that combat unit in battle, but won't help any other unit. As artillery can't be directly attached to combat units, it's somewhat variable how many units help out in combat. With good leaders, you can get good support.



DBeves -> RE: Support units - artillery (12/10/2010 10:02:13 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

Support units being send out by HQ's are not "attached", even temporarily, to a combat unit. They come from and return to HQ's and have no on-map presence of any kind. Flavio has explained what the locked HQ feature means in practice. The locked HQ feature in no way hinders participation of that HQ's support unit in a battle.



Ah thanks Comrade - re my edited post above - that explains my misunderstanding - they are different concepts - still not sure I understand the design decision but the rationale is now clear - I was confusing two separate concepts.



ComradeP -> RE: Support units - artillery (12/10/2010 10:03:06 PM)

I edited my post with another clarification.



Flaviusx -> RE: Support units - artillery (12/10/2010 10:03:08 PM)

They are different concepts.

Support comes from HQs. Subunits attached to HQs may or may not participate in combats involving their ordinary combat formations depending on leadership rolls.

Attachments to divisions (or Soviet corps) bypass this procedure entirely. The subunits get attached to that unit and will only help that particular combat formation. Artillery subunits in particular do not get this option at all and can only be used for support at the HQ level. Other subunits may be directly attached to combat formations.

Different combat formations are allowed different sorts of attachments.

As to whether or not it is better to rely on HQs or direct attachments, that depends and is itself a matter of debate among the testers. They both have advantages and disadvantages.



DBeves -> RE: Support units - artillery (12/10/2010 10:07:48 PM)

Thanks both - it is clear now ...

I suppose the reality was that corps level artillery for example was only ever loaned to sub units not attached - whilst it might be different if a static defence was planned for.



runyan99 -> RE: Support units - artillery (12/10/2010 10:52:47 PM)

I still don't completely understand all aspects of this.

Take the lowest possible infantry corps HQ. If I lock it, does it matter? Does that mean it will not accept new support units from Group HQ?

Do I need to worry about new support units flowing down from OHK to Group to Corps HQs?



Flaviusx -> RE: Support units - artillery (12/10/2010 10:58:30 PM)

If you lock an HQ it will neither accept new subunits from other HQs nor lose its subunits.

This option exists because sometimes you will prefer to keep your HQs as they are and not leave the distribution of subunits between HQs to the vagaries of the AI.

On the other hand, it is far cheaper in terms of APs to use the automated distribution system.




CarnageINC -> RE: Support units - artillery (12/11/2010 12:34:38 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

Support units being send out by HQ's are not "attached", even temporarily, to a combat unit. They come from and return to HQ's and have no on-map presence of any kind.


Support units are shown in the combat screen if their participating in combat correct? [&:]



Sabre21 -> RE: Support units - artillery (12/11/2010 12:39:50 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: CarnageINC


quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

Support units being send out by HQ's are not "attached", even temporarily, to a combat unit. They come from and return to HQ's and have no on-map presence of any kind.


Support units are shown in the combat screen if their participating in combat correct? [&:]


Yes



CarnageINC -> RE: Support units - artillery (12/11/2010 12:40:12 AM)

Does the Headquarters Unit have to be within a certain range for support units to be used, I assume that the combat units can not be isolated from there HQ's.  An example is arty, does the HQ have to be within 2 hexes of the enemy unit being attacked for arty to be in used in combat?



runyan99 -> RE: Support units - artillery (12/11/2010 12:50:22 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: CarnageINC

Does the Headquarters Unit have to be within a certain range for support units to be used, I assume that the combat units can not be isolated from there HQ's.  An example is arty, does the HQ have to be within 2 hexes of the enemy unit being attacked for arty to be in used in combat?


Yeah but I think the range is 5 hexes.



Flaviusx -> RE: Support units - artillery (12/11/2010 12:57:19 AM)

Correct, it is a 5 hex range. See rule 15.4 for details.




ComradeP -> RE: Support units - artillery (12/11/2010 11:27:56 AM)

quote:

Support units are shown in the combat screen if their participating in combat correct?


What I was trying to say is that, although the units participate in combat as shown on the combat screen and can take losses, they're not physically present in the hex you're attacking from. As far as the game's concerned, they're still at the hex including your HQ, although again without an on-map presence.



Icekill -> RE: Support units - artillery (12/11/2010 12:04:58 PM)

I'm having a also some problems understanding well the abstract concept of support units. I would prefer them to actually be displayed in the map like the rest of my units, but i guess there is a realistic reason of why aren't.

after reading that part of the manual three times and reading this thread I understand now that they do not appear on the map as counters, but they are there attached to the HQ units that "loan" them to your units in combat after some dice checks by your units leaders and some other factors, but i have some questions:

1) As they do not appear in the map, how can you attack those support units? bombing for example the HQ counters?

2) Are they factored in the counters displayed CV value? I know i can go back from an unit to it's HQ to see the support units attached and that could support in battle, but it would be nice to be also to see directly on each unit if it can be supported by those support units without having to go to it's HQ unit screen (less clicks) and how could they raise that unit strength.

3) Also, what about enemy units? how can i know if they are supported or not? can recon over that unit or over it's HQ tell me anything about it? Else i could be attacking a single stacked unit thinking it's an easy task when it could be in fact supported by heavy artillery, sappers, tanks, mortars and AA that are nowhere to be seen in the map as are support units attached to it's HQ. In a real battle recon would tell me more about nearby enemy sappers/artillery/tanks regiments/divisions instead of them being "teletransported" to the battle once i attack.

4) In the tutorial scenario i saw i can build a few of those support units from my HQ, and some are filled by units after 1 turn while others don't. How can i know which and why some support units can be created and filled by units and which ones not? How can i know my limits when creating support units?

Thanks in advance and hope this will also help others with same doubts.



ComradeP -> RE: Support units - artillery (12/11/2010 12:22:44 PM)

quote:

1) As they do not appear in the map, how can you attack those support units? bombing for example the HQ counters?


Not sure if bombing HQ's will damage non-AA support units (those will fire back), somebody else will have to clarify that.

You're mostly damaging and thus possibly destroying support units in a combat they participate in. For example, in the 1943 game between Bob and Flavio, German artillery battalions were blown away in droves by artillery divisions due to participating in a battle where they were seriously outmatched in the number of artillery present.

quote:

2) Are they factored in the counters displayed CV value?


Yes, but the CV they add would in most cases not be enough to increase the on-counter CV.

quote:

3) Also, what about enemy units? how can i know if they are supported or not?


You won't. Just like you can never be completely sure of the strength of an enemy unit even after attacking it, you'll never know what kind of support you (unless it's attached to a combat unit) or the enemy will attract prior to attacking an enemy unit. You can make a pretty good guess based on earlier battles against units in the area/the same unit, though.

quote:

4) In the tutorial scenario i saw i can build a few of those support units from my HQ, and some are filled by units after 1 turn while others don't. How can i know which and why some support units can be created and filled by units and which ones not? How can i know my limits when creating support units?


Production sometimes works in mysterious ways for equipment that is produced with armament points (the equipment that has an "A" listed as their capacity on the production screen. Note that filtering the production screen fill remove these units from the screen as filtering only shows in-production equipment with a numerical capacity). You can make a pretty good guess of whether a support unit will be full strength or not in the next turn based on the production numbers. Generally speaking, anything requiring solely something that can be build with manpower (say, sapper squads and support squads) has a much higher chance of being full strength the next turn than something relying on production of some sort.



ComradeP -> RE: Support units - artillery (12/11/2010 12:39:42 PM)

Correction: really good support units do increase on-counter CV, but the battalion sized ones are not likely to do so.



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