Alfonso vs Russian AI. Road to Smolensk (Full Version)

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alfonso -> Alfonso vs Russian AI. Road to Smolensk (12/11/2010 6:14:26 PM)

This is the situation at the beginning of German Turn 3. The Panzer troops are at the gates of Vitebsk and Mogilev (and this last city has just been evacuated by the Soviets...). The infantry elements of PanzerGruppen 2 and 3 lag well behind. Would be a good idea to temporaly motorize some of those infantry divisions in order to fill the gap with the forward panzer divisions? Besides, I do not know if trying to cross the Dnieper at Mogilev (I have to read the rules about river crossings), or driving the 2nd Panzer group north, to join forces with 3rd Panzer Group in the land-bridge between Vitebsk and Orsha, to try to reach Smolensk in turn 5. Anyway, I think that any advance beyond Smolensk would necessitate a railhead at Minsk, and I do not know how long that will take (it is near Vilnius right now)

My feeling is that it would have been wiser to attach some support elements to the PanzerDivisions in turn 1, because almost all their battles in Turn 2 have been far from HQ support. I move first the divisions, and, at the end of the turn, move the HQs. Is it better to try to move all more or less at the same time, stacking HQs with PanzerDivisions?

[image]local://upfiles/4579/2D3CF298776940A3A5F3C32365A8BC42.jpg[/image]



Flaviusx -> RE: Alfonso vs Russian AI. Road to Smolensk (12/11/2010 6:16:29 PM)

Motorizing units is extremely expensive. You probably can afford maybe or three infantry divisions at most with the pool you have. You'll have to judge for yourself if this is a reasonable return for APs invested, but I'd say probably not.




ComradeP -> RE: Alfonso vs Russian AI. Road to Smolensk (12/11/2010 6:19:18 PM)

Motorizing infantry is too expensive in terms of AP's and trucks used most of the time, but I guess you can afford to do it in the "Road to..." scenarios. In campaigns, it's a no-no in my opinion.

If possible, I'd advise to try and keep units in HQ range during the advance. First move a combat unit and then move the HQ up behind it. You can also place it in the same hex as the combat unit prior to an attack, although I would not advise keeping a HQ at the frontline at the end of a turn. Try to keep them somewhat to the rear, preferably stacked with a combat unit or at the least in a hex the enemy can't reach.



alfonso -> RE: Alfonso vs Russian AI. Road to Smolensk (12/11/2010 11:43:26 PM)

And this is the situation after German Turn 3. Vitebsk and Mogilev have been liberated, Second Panzer Group has arrived at the Dnieper and after turning northwards it was able to punch the line Vitebsk-Orsha. 4th and 9th Army are slowly approaching. Army Group North protects the North Front. Some of its units have been removed, and more withdrawals are coming, so I have some Divisions in Army Group centre as reserve. I finally motorized one infantry division of Second Panzer group, it is now located SW from Minsk, ahead of 4th Army. Another motorization will be necessary to reach the front (I am assuming that the motorized state lasts only one turn). Another inf div from 2nd Panzer group was attached to 9th Army and transferred by rail.

It only took me 2 hours to complete the turn...[:)]

PD: I have just realized that I left 2 HQ naked in the south...already fixed...I am going to click F12....

[image]local://upfiles/4579/83EF53C5A09341909DDA1E04E5A852A6.jpg[/image]



Flaviusx -> RE: Alfonso vs Russian AI. Road to Smolensk (12/11/2010 11:47:50 PM)

Nice AAR, but, I don't believe the Germans are allowed to use the word "liberating" in relation to Soviet cities. [;)]



alfonso -> RE: Alfonso vs Russian AI. Road to Smolensk (12/12/2010 12:06:59 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Nice AAR, but, I don't believe the Germans are allowed to use the word "liberating" in relation to Soviet cities. [;)]



Hehe...just kidding...remember, in this scenario I am von Bock!!. Look, this is the Soviet AI response...Minsk is now at SP13 and Vitebsk at 44...time to Air Supply and hold on 1 turn. Do you think the penetration is wide enough?.

[image]local://upfiles/4579/509552A263CF4554BDB9FF379A189FB6.jpg[/image]



Flaviusx -> RE: Alfonso vs Russian AI. Road to Smolensk (12/12/2010 12:11:50 AM)

It's a little thin. Hard to say, because with FoW it's not clear what the Soviet has.

A few cavalry divisions could make your life miserable here.



alfonso -> RE: Alfonso vs Russian AI. Road to Smolensk (12/12/2010 12:25:14 AM)

I am doing a lot of Air Recon, but, what is the ideal density of Air Recon?. And if I see nothing in a hex when using Air Recon, can I safely assume that there is nothing in that hex?. What is the range of a Soviet Cavalry Div, more or less like the German one?



Flaviusx -> RE: Alfonso vs Russian AI. Road to Smolensk (12/12/2010 12:30:29 AM)

Theoretically up to 22 hexes for all cavalry. (Soviet or otherwise.) Very unlikely they'll have that much, though. But they are surpisingly nimble units, more than the raw MPs indicate, they get some movement bonuses. I think you are okay for now though, because the big cavalry reinforcements come later. (Something like a half dozen divisions arrrive around turn 5.)

Not sure what the ideal density of air recon is; I fly mine up to its limits every turn, so I guess the answer to that question is: "as much as possible."



alfonso -> RE: Alfonso vs Russian AI. Road to Smolensk (12/12/2010 1:14:26 PM)

This is the situation just before hitting F12. 4th and 9th Army are already around Minsk, and I have gained breathing space around Vitebsk with my Panzer Forces. Hopefully next turn or in Turn 6 I could surround Smolensk, after consolidating the Mogilev-Vitebsk line with Infantry Divisions.

I am very grateful to the comments made by....Rokossovsky himself!

[image]local://upfiles/4579/A4483721587949A4AEAB0C4E33B36CA2.jpg[/image]



alfonso -> RE: Alfonso vs Russian AI. Road to Smolensk (12/12/2010 6:48:46 PM)

In their 5th Turn, Germans have made slow advances...4th Army has taken positions previously held by 2nd PanzerGroup and the Infantry elements of 3rd PanzerGroup have taken positions previously controlled by panzer forces of their same Group. 9th Army has been used to fill some gaps. Germany is now at the gates of Smolensk. Security Divisions are now garrisoning rear cities to avoid partisan warfare.

[image]local://upfiles/4579/C1B1DB21D83E4B97B371689A36819152.jpg[/image]



Flaviusx -> RE: Alfonso vs Russian AI. Road to Smolensk (12/12/2010 6:57:23 PM)

Alfonso, you really are doing very nicely here. Nice job on keeping the panzer momentum up while waiting for the infantry to catch up. This is not easy to do in this scenario.

I notice you are taking a pass on the swamps north of Vitebsk. Having played the scenario many times from the Soviet end, I think that's the right way to go. That area is a deathtrap for the Germans. You'll want to eventually grab Velikie Luki, but probably from the rear.




henri51 -> RE: Alfonso vs Russian AI. Road to Smolensk (12/12/2010 8:48:04 PM)

Nice going, but if you are playing with FOW, be aware that this is about the time that Rokkosovsky launched his strong counterattack that flustered and delayed the Germans, prevented the encirclement of Smolensk and allowed the Smolensk defenders to leave the city and gear up for the defence of Moscow.

Henri



alfonso -> RE: Alfonso vs Russian AI. Road to Smolensk (12/13/2010 1:14:43 AM)

Buff, it is becoming increasingly difficult. My troops swim in a sea of Red Army units, the MP penalties for moving inside EZOCs are freezing my advance. I have 4 of the 6 hexes around Smolensko, and I made a probing attack to the city itself, but it was defended by a rifle div trio with a combat value above 1000 (not 100, but 1000). I suppose they enjoy defense bonus of some kind...Minsk is now railhead. One of my FBD units was not working any more because it was not adjacent to the last portion of repaired railway (my fault). I have realized now that it is probably better to have them both work in tandem, and not one in the north and the other in the south. I also lost one HQ by NOOB MISTAKE nr 1 (moving first the division stacked with the HQ). 4th Army crossed the Dnieper, but I am beyond schedule now. My objective in the last 4 turns is surrounding Smolensko, and forcing it to surrender, and to try a final dash to Viazma

[image]local://upfiles/4579/B0407DDB8B72491F92B8B74BA7F48CCD.jpg[/image]



Flaviusx -> RE: Alfonso vs Russian AI. Road to Smolensk (12/13/2010 1:24:56 AM)

You should be able to pocket Smolensk on turn 7 from what I can see. That means it will fall on turn 8 (let it starve for a turn.)

This leaves you with two turns to take other objectives, which is going to be kind of tight.




alfonso -> RE: Alfonso vs Russian AI. Road to Smolensk (12/13/2010 1:59:08 PM)

Questions: If a map counter displays 8=16, 8 is the attack CV and 16 the defensive CV? Or 8 is the raw defensive value and 16 is the defensive CV taking into account bonus (city, major rivers, forts, etc...?) . The Smolensk counter stack shown above shows a "defensive" value of X, is it because it is above 99?



alfonso -> RE: Alfonso vs Russian AI. Road to Smolensk (12/13/2010 4:21:55 PM)

Turn 7: Finally Smolensk has been surrounded. I have discovered that OKH had plenty of artillery and support stuff, which would have been much more useful at the front than at Konigsberg. I also discovered that I have a nice 2nd Army sleeping in my rear probably since some turns ago. I am rail-transferring those divisions to Minsk, too late to be of much positive impact. I like to make my own air recon and transport missions, but I still do not know according to what criteria are plane groups shown as eligible (proximity, chain of command?). Time to go back to the manual.

[image]local://upfiles/4579/D9C945CEF05E43B1B2139B0BA8A2FCDC.jpg[/image]



Flaviusx -> RE: Alfonso vs Russian AI. Road to Smolensk (12/13/2010 7:16:36 PM)

Sorry to hear about the 2. Army. Missing those guys hurts, they could be up to the front line by now.



alfonso -> RE: Alfonso vs Russian AI. Road to Smolensk (12/13/2010 10:02:44 PM)

Turn 8: Smolensk falls, but my units are very low in fuel and high in fatigue. The issue is in doubt. Some units of 2nd Army arrive now near Vitebsk, to relieve 9th Army, which is going to be pushed towards Smolensk. 4th Army continues its useless fight across the Dnieper, no hope of reaching Gomel. Anyhow, this is being a wonderful learning experience!!. Two more turns and back to the beginning.

[image]local://upfiles/4579/49859680D0E94FF9955A98117EF1C189.jpg[/image]



Enigma6584 -> RE: Alfonso vs Russian AI. Road to Smolensk (12/13/2010 10:19:38 PM)

Superb!  Very much enjoying this AAR!



hgilmer3 -> RE: Alfonso vs Russian AI. Road to Smolensk (12/13/2010 11:47:39 PM)

I have been playing this scenario, too.  You are doing much better than I did.  I had a Group up North but they were on withdrawal schedule.  I thought I could push them through to Vitebsk along the Northside of the river and seemed to be doing OK, but then they were withdrawn.

It did not end well, I must say for the German commander.  Back to Berlin to face Hitler.



alfonso -> RE: Alfonso vs Russian AI. Road to Smolensk (12/14/2010 10:45:48 AM)

Turn 9: I have crossed the Dnieper east of Smolensk with all forces available. However, with hindsight I observe that there is much contact between my armour and the enemy, which according to the manual makes fatigue recovery less than optimal during the logistic phase. Forces of 2nd and 3rd Panzer Group have been intermingled during the last confused battles, but I had no more Administrative Points to sort the mess out. This time I have attached more support units to my divisions, but I dont know if they have really made a difference this turn. I feel they have, but it could be a placebo effect.... If this was a campaign, it would be tempting to transfer some armour to 4th Army to try a double pincer movement against the Soviet forces south of Smolensk. As it is, even the bakery company and regimental music band are to be sent towards Viazma next (and last) turn...

[image]local://upfiles/4579/58767CB35F274C04B4D5BE67FC927995.jpg[/image]



alfonso -> RE: Alfonso vs Russian AI. Road to Smolensk (12/15/2010 11:11:37 AM)

Finally, I could not take Vyazma....[:@]

[image]local://upfiles/4579/1FD8810ED79347A7BC1E92E6BAD071C8.jpg[/image]



Flaviusx -> RE: Alfonso vs Russian AI. Road to Smolensk (12/15/2010 1:21:04 PM)

Alfonso, you did very well here for your first try. You got this, just reset and avoid some of these little mistakes (like forgetting 2. Army, oops) and a victory will be yours.




erigra -> RE: Alfonso vs Russian AI. Road to Smolensk (12/16/2010 10:56:26 PM)

Good AAR, thank you!
I had a first try as well, and ended up with a minor german victory (normal difficulty).
My panzers didnt advance as fast as yours in the beginning, but my infantry was catching up quicker I think...
Also the AI did some stupid things, like abandoning Minsk and even Smolensk when I broke through his defending line behind the major rivers...
Anyways, heres a screenie of my endturn...



[image]local://upfiles/22529/E641E310AD8C41DC9DA379E3E6F4BCED.jpg[/image]



alfonso -> RE: Alfonso vs Russian AI. Road to Smolensk (12/18/2010 1:20:45 AM)

A second try in the same scenario, again against normal AI.

This is the situation at the beginning of turn 5. Compared with my previous attempt, more support units have been attached to front line divisions, and I have made a more careful handling of rail reparations. The results: about 1-2 additional hexes per turn in the last turns. I am only converting the railroad Kaunas-Vilnius-Minsk and then to Smolensko. I use my 2 rail-repairing units in tandem. I thought that I could make 6-8 reparations per turn, but it seems that there is a limit in 5 for a single portion of the railroad. Anyhow that is better than the usual 3-4. I think this can be corrected adding more construction support units to my FBD units, so they can work farther from the previous railhead.

This time 2nd Army is already on the way. Before any battle makes them unavailable (because they fly ground suppport), I now use the level bombers to transport supplies. This time I am also using the third Ju-52 group, which at the beginning of the scenario is in the national reserve ( I did not check this the other time). The basic strategy is the same: 2nd and 3rd Panzer Groups to Vyazma, both passing betwen Orsha and Vitebsk: 4th Army to cross the Dnieper in Mogilev, whith the utopic goal of reaching Gomel.

In a campaign game I think I would have do it otherwise: 2nd Panzer would approach Smolensk from the south, after crossing the Dnieper at Mogilev, to trap the Soviet forces located in the triangle delimited by the Mogilev-Smolensk line and the Dnieper river. After capturing Smolensk in a grand campain, I doubt which solution is better: 1) to go for Viazma with 2nd Panzer Group or 2)sending it to the south.

The amazing fact is that with this game it is not only possible to understand the dilemmas faced by the commanders at the time, you can also FEEL those same dilemmas...

[image]local://upfiles/4579/A67E9400E76B4F009ACCABB880F45B7F.jpg[/image]



alfonso -> RE: Alfonso vs Russian AI. Road to Smolensk (12/18/2010 1:05:10 PM)

During this 5th turn Smolensk has been surrounded, 9th Army has taken positions previously held by 3rd Panzer Group and 4th Army has reached the Dnieper. The infantry elements of 2nd PzGroup are being re-routed by train (Brest-Litovsk/Kaunas/Minsk). Air Transport keeps supply levels within reasonable limits.

[image]local://upfiles/4579/AA8F27F5BCFA42FF82F2EE099D7D33FC.jpg[/image]



alfonso -> RE: Alfonso vs Russian AI. Road to Smolensk (12/19/2010 12:15:21 AM)

Turn 6: Once surrounded and out of supply, the Smolensk garrison was defeated. Next objective: Vyazma...

[image]local://upfiles/4579/61E40C002C8043ADB24CB65CDD466C58.jpg[/image]



Flaviusx -> RE: Alfonso vs Russian AI. Road to Smolensk (12/19/2010 3:19:13 AM)

Outstanding performance on the second try.

Don't forget to grab Gomel. Or one more objective besides Vyazma, but Gomel is the most obvious one. Actually, you've got a good shot at Rhzev and/or VL here...




alfonso -> RE: Alfonso vs Russian AI. Road to Smolensk (12/19/2010 10:33:26 AM)

Turn 7: German forces are now at the gates of Vyazma. 3rd Panzer Gruoup is heading towards Rzhev, while one corps of 9th Army and an Inf Corps from 3rd PzG are exploring the way towards Velikie Luki. Unfortunately, Gomel has been more or less discarded, because my plan includes to connect as soon as possible Minsk with Smolensk by railroad, and that would mean that supply for advancing 4th Army towards Gomel would have to be traced across the Dnieper, which I think affects supply efficiency and would stress my motor pool. However, 4th Army will make some attacks, in order to lure the AI algorithms away from Rzhev, and make the computer "believe" I am going for Gomel, to at least attract some Red Army Divisions away from the North. I don't know if trying to deceive a computer is philosophically sound, though.

[image]local://upfiles/4579/2D514C9D01F94CD0B48135EADCFBA935.jpg[/image]



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