Did talonsoft close shop (Full Version)

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sapperland -> Did talonsoft close shop (8/28/2002 5:44:54 AM)

They have not updated their web site since last November. I don't see any kind of current messages getting posted either.
In the past, they did put out some good games. ie Art of war series and the east/west campaign series.
I'm glad that Matrix is here to keep the hardcore war games going.




VictorH -> Losers!!! (8/28/2002 8:02:06 AM)

Talonsoft, what a bunch of losers. They screwed Matrix and Frank Hunter. I hope they sink and all those swine roast in the Nether Regions. I bet they were one of those Enron side investments.




CCB -> Re: Losers!!! (8/28/2002 4:26:21 PM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by VictorH
[B]Talonsoft, what a bunch of losers. They screwed Matrix and Frank Hunter. I hope they sink and all those swine roast in the Nether Regions. I bet they were one of those Enron side investments. [/B][/QUOTE]

Don't sugarcoat it Sunshine, tell us how you really feel. We're all grown men, we can take it. :D




Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> (8/28/2002 7:16:03 PM)

Hmmm well if you can roast Talonsoft, how about a side order of the "back stabbing" Critical Hit, the people that actually think you can produce "Advanced Tobruk" and no one is going to fail to notice that miserable waste of skin is merely ripping off MMP by making the most outrageous rip off of ASL possible.

For those that have not seen this offensive product, don't rush to find it.
A it isn't Advanced Tobruk (it has nothing to do with the original Tobruk), and B if you want this game for whatever reason, buy ASL, its done better (and you won't be a traitor to the hobby).

That said, I now return you to your normally scheduled Forum visit.




Brigz -> (8/29/2002 7:20:27 AM)

Talonsoft did what many game companies do, and I'll never understand why they do it. Greed I guess. When Talonsoft first started making war games they were really hot and their forums were as busy and interesting as this one. Then, after successfully publishing many good wargames they decided to expand into the FPS and fantasy/scifi market and put thier wargames on the back burner. Well, look at them now. Their forums are like a ghost town and they don't make any more wargames. I haven't tried to visit thier site in a long time so I have no idea what they are doing now. The same thing happened to SSI and several other good computer wargame companies. They just had to go the FPS and scifi route and lost the wargame crowd because of it. It's kind of like the expression in network television of "jumping the shark". When a wargame company starts looking at other types of games to boost sales, then you know they are about to go under.

But look at HPS and Matrix. Both companies are concentrating on wargames and have a very good following. I just hope they don't try to "jump the shark" too because it will mean they also will go under.




Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> (8/29/2002 9:12:10 PM)

Living in a capitalist country as I do, where capitalism, in spite of it being seen as "evil" by other parts of the world, that just don't know how to do it correctly, I never get upset when a person or persons, or corporation elect to pursue gainfull access to my dollars.

That much said, there are bright ways to get my money, and not so bright ways to get my money.

Case in point, I purchased a pizza the other day. The delivery forgot my pop. I would not be overly upset if it had not happened from the particular establishment before.
They returned with two 2 litre bottles of the flavours of my orginal choice instead of 2 cans. This was their own decision without any request having been made by any comment from me.

The decision to do so though, has ensured my next pizza will come from them.
Their pizza is ok, nothing special or superior (it's as good as anyone else's in town really). But it was very good business to ensure that even while only an innocent mistake, they made sure not to anger and or annoy me by the late deliver of the beverage with my meal.

Now on the other hand, I have had my deliver so consistently mangled on a 9 out of 10 instances basis, by a well known fried chicken business here in town, that I have no trouble dragging their name through the mud publicly when I discuss fast food businesses with others.

It is always possible that a business might deliver an inferior product and or service accidentally. This is the nature of chance. It is entirely unforgivable though, when a business does so casually and with no regrets.

This is why when I see comments about my Mega Campaign having software design glitches (I have Lost Victories), I am not immediately resentful of having been sold a product that has failed in some capacity.
I could either whine and complain, or go on the forum and seek assistance fixing the trouble.
Here at Matrix the help is almost assumed. Therefore the business has stood behind its product faithfully. I won't punish them for an innocent mistake.

I have no personal knowledge of the actions of Talonsoft that has given rise to their name being sullied. I have several of their wargames, and I consider them in the top of their class.
But a superior product is not going to automatically permit inappropriate behaviour down the road.

That is why I have little problem with my condemnation of Critical Hit.
They have made products in the past for ASL (some of which have been deemed to be inferior by ASL players), they now seek to intentionally release products that are a direct attack on the ASL system, by shamelessly copying the design and attaching a different name to it.
It would be no different than me producing a game called Combat Commander, that had no appreciable difference from Combat Leader, after having worked on a design for a Combat Leader module and having a falling out with the Combat Leader design crew.

The decision to pursue a course similar to what mentioned above has left me disgusted. As a result, Critical Hit can design whatever games they wish it matters not how good they might be said to be.
I care not for how good they might be, or for their questionable claims of "selling fast". They have exhibited offensive marketing practices, and this consumer is boycotting them as we speak.

Matrix on the other hand, has shown that good marketing practices and customer service can ensure their name is never spoken in a derogatory fashion.
They are a business, I expect them to pursue the business of making money. That is why people go into business.
I won't say that I wish them to isolate turn based wargames and shun all others though. That is idiotic at best.

If in a few years Matrix ends up making cutting edge FPS games predominantly, I wish them success in their efforts.
That I hate FPS games won't make me like their company less, if it detracts from them selling yet more turn based wargames.

As long as they give us a healthy forum for discussion, and devote some resources to our sector of the hobby, they have served me well. If my beloved turn based game style ends up in a small corner of their site, it will be no big deal. As long as that little corner is a nice place to hang out for us turn based nuts eh.

I don't think wanting to sell games outside of my own personal interest range though is necessarily greedy automatically. If 9 out of 10 people want a specific something, you just have to accept that only 1 out of 10 will want the other. It is not good business or logical, to assume you can do enough business to survive on some product types. That's the reason most corner stores sell smokes and lottery tickets (you need to pay the bills).

To start with wargames of a high calibre though, and then convert to the games that are volume sales friendly, and foresake your prduct line that established your name in the community, is a choice that might not be a good one.
It is a choice though, and just a choice. Again I have no idea of what Talonsoft might have down, that might be seen as offensive (so specific examples are in order).

Critical Hit though, is using it's ASL past, and it's established name from having produced ASL after market products, to sell products that are ASL clones to consumers, that might be unaware they are buying products, that are essentially mean spirited attacks on a rival company.

Though not technically game piracy, I have the same feelings for Critical Hit's Advanced Tobruk, as I would for someone bootlegging copies of any of Matrix's games. And if I see a bootlegged Matrix product, I intend to tell Matrix (in private) the name of the individual.

Apologies if I have stepped over any boundaries with this post. But I won't sit by and let someone do something offensive and not speak (it's my nature).




Spooky -> (8/30/2002 6:00:13 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dave Briggs
[B]Talonsoft did what many game companies do, and I'll never understand why they do it. Greed I guess. When Talonsoft first started making war games they were really hot and their forums were as busy and interesting as this one. Then, after successfully publishing many good wargames they decided to expand into the FPS and fantasy/scifi market and put thier wargames on the back burner. Well, look at them now. Their forums are like a ghost town and they don't make any more wargames. I haven't tried to visit thier site in a long time so I have no idea what they are doing now. The same thing happened to SSI and several other good computer wargame companies. They just had to go the FPS and scifi route and lost the wargame crowd because of it. It's kind of like the expression in network television of "jumping the shark". When a wargame company starts looking at other types of games to boost sales, then you know they are about to go under.

But look at HPS and Matrix. Both companies are concentrating on wargames and have a very good following. I just hope they don't try to "jump the shark" too because it will mean they also will go under. [/B][/QUOTE]

AFAIK, SSI had released Scifi & sports games nearly since their creation and in an interview, Joel Billings said more or less than that the sales of these games were quite higher than wargames sales. And some fantasy SSI games were really great :)

Moreover, Matrix already has a sci-fi game (Starship unlimited) ... and is planning to release a few more (Titan of Steel, Fading Sun Noble Armada). And it is the same thing for Shrapnel games with Space Empires or Space Horse along with their numerous wargames ...




VictorH -> Space Wars......... (8/30/2002 9:18:31 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Spooky
[B]

AFAIK, SSI had released Scifi & sports games nearly since their creation and in an interview, Joel Billings said more or less than that the sales of these games were quite higher than wargames sales. And some fantasy SSI games were really great :)

Moreover, Matrix already has a sci-fi game (Starship unlimited) ... and is planning to release a few more (Titan of Steel, Fading Sun Noble Armada). And it is the same thing for Shrapnel games with Space Empires or Space Horse along with their numerous wargames ... [/B][/QUOTE]

Yea, to many Trekkies. Kids should have watched more Combat and the Blacksheep instead of Star Trek and Flipper.




Brigz -> (8/30/2002 11:10:57 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Spooky
[B]

AFAIK, SSI had released Scifi & sports games nearly since their creation and in an interview, Joel Billings said more or less than that the sales of these games were quite higher than wargames sales. And some fantasy SSI games were really great :)

Moreover, Matrix already has a sci-fi game (Starship unlimited) ... and is planning to release a few more (Titan of Steel, Fading Sun Noble Armada). And it is the same thing for Shrapnel games with Space Empires or Space Horse along with their numerous wargames ... [/B][/QUOTE]

Yes, I agree and I even own some of those SSI Scifi games. I'm not anti-fanstasy/scifi game nor am I anti-real time shooter games either. But you see, It doesn't bother me that Matrix has released and will continue to release scifi/fantasy games. Their commitment to wargames, the type of game I prefer, has been demonstrated and I believe that they will continue to produce historical wargames as well as other types of games.

I own all of Talonsoft's Battleground Series, Napoleonic and American Civil War. They are my favorite computer games of all time. I also own Bulge, East Front, Age of Sail, and Operational Art of War Vol's I and II. I like all of them. I don't hate Talonsoft. They published the games I actually play 80% of the time. It's just that I PERSONALLY think they made a big mistake by dumping that line of games. That is the same opinion held by most of the people I met on the old Talonsoft forum that USED to be as lively as this one. Talonsoft abandoned a core group of gamers that gave them the much needed support when they were just getting started. I PERSONALLY think that was a mistake. Obviously, any company can do whatever they think best for their company. It's thier business they can do whatever they want. They owe me nothing because I bought games from them. I got more than my money's worth and I'm very happy with their products. But I'll repeat this once more... I PERSONALLY think they made a big mistake.

But now that HPS Simulations has added John Tiller to it's staff and I now own Campaign Corinth and can simulate any American Civil War battle..., well, I barely miss Talonsoft.

Companies like Matrix and HPS Simulations, and Schwerpunkt give me great hope wargaming is not on the decline but will only get better.




Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> (8/30/2002 10:11:18 PM)

Good and loyal customers, a good reputation for service excellence, and sound market strategy, its all part and parcel of doing a successful business.

But just like with a tripod, if you pull out one of those legs, expect it to fall.

Matrix has good loyal customers because of this foum I believe.

That Matrix actually participates in the forums directly, provides for great service potential.
That they have realised there is more to life than Steel Panthers means they have sound judgement.

I am glad Matrix has expanded in ways that ensure they have money coming in instead of just money going out.

Avalon Hill sold games that were not always wargames.
TSR was more than just Dungeons and Dragons.

That they are not here today has nothing to do with selling outside of pure wargames of course (TSR was stabbed in the back by a book publisher I believe for instance).
So there is no reason to condemn a company for their choice of products, only if they forget their roots.




Brigz -> (8/31/2002 3:59:29 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1
[B]
That they are not here today has nothing to do with selling outside of pure wargames of course (TSR was stabbed in the back by a book publisher I believe for instance).
So there is no reason to condemn a company for their choice of products, only if they forget their roots. [/B][/QUOTE]

Actually Talonsoft is still around, but just not in thier old form.

I don't want to keep beating this dead horse, but I guess I'm not doing a very good job of making my point. The games Talonsoft decided not to support are now being published by HPS Simulations and they are doing very well with those games. Why, when Talonsoft was complaining that they just didn't have the resources, did they discontinue a sure money maker? For all I know they might be doing better business with their new line of products than with the old. That isn't really the point.

I'm not condemning them, just wondering what the heck were they thinking. I guess this is a sore spot for me because I keep hearing comments about how wargaming is dying and that it doesn't seem to have the same appeal as it used to. I disagree with this, but one of the reasons I think many people believe computer wargaming is dying is because some of these companies don't listen to their customers and make bad decisions that eventually end up in cancelled projects and discontinued sales. It gives the impression that wargames don't sell and I just don't believe that. Sure, fantasy/scifi and FPS games are the most popular and do have a higher sales potential and much larger market, but there is still a large dedicated wargame community world-wide and plenty of money out there to buy good historical wargames if a company will just listen to the customers and give them what they want. Kinda like how Matrix does it.




Brigz -> (8/31/2002 4:12:20 AM)

Oh, and one more point. I don't care if Matrix or any other company produces fantasy/scifi, FPS, flight sims or whatever. Just as long as they don't abandon us wargamers.

Think about it, Les. With all the talk and support Matrix does about thier historical wargames, how would you feel about them if next month they came out with news that they would no longer be making historical wargames but would only pursue fantasy/scifi games because that's where the money is. I don't believe that is going to happen and they have every right to do whatever they want, but if it did happen, I'd have to seriously question thier integrity and I think you would too. But then I have to understand that what I think of someone's intergrity really amounts to nothing more than a hill of beans. ;)




Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> (8/31/2002 8:05:01 AM)

If tomorrow Matrix declared it could no longer support classical styled wargames, odds are I would leave.

I would not leave angry, maybe a bit sad, but I would indeed leave.

I am here because people like you are here Dave. You are here because guys like me our here too. We are all here because games like Steel Panthers are here.

We are all happy because Matrix cares for us. We support Matrix because Matrix has earned it. They earned it with hard work.

Tomorrow they could just as easily decide they want to produce the best in FPS and concentrate on that and nothing else. They could even expand into a publication that highlighted advances in tech that served that interest.
But that game style has no value to me. If the forum became just a platform for that, I would have no reason to be around any more.

If Talonsoft no longer wishes to market old style games, I guess that is their right. If they have walked out on a good support base, that is of course hard to fathom.

But Hasbro bought up several games/companies for plenty of dull witted reasons, so Talonsoft didn't invent stupid market choices that's for sure. Hasbro has since sold a number of their knee jerk purchases too.

They own, thank god, ASL, but they have elected to have the MMP people run it. If Hasbro had not grabbed it up, who knows where it would be today.
TSR is currently selling items again. But then the company has bounced through owners for several years now.
There is almost no way to tell where any product in the last 5 years came from.




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