Like the AI, but need some advice (Full Version)

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fsp -> Like the AI, but need some advice (12/12/2010 12:18:27 AM)

So far, I am impressed with the Soviet AI in 1941. Of course, it will never be the same as a human and I can take liberties I could not take against a human opponent, but with Heeresgruppe Süd I was not sure what to do and aimed for a huge hook through Rovno, Korec, Proskurov and linking up with the Romanian Front at Podolsk. I wanted to create the mother of all encirclements. But once I reached Korec, the AI seems to have gotten the hang of things and pulled almost all the units out of danger, leaving me with nothing but empty space to occupy. If that is really the AI realizing the danger it was in and pulling out, I am hugely impressed, I have never seen this been done by any AI I know!

Then I turned to Heeresgruppe Mitte and almost crapped my pants... I hate such a solid front of Soviet units, which is EIGHT units deep in some places. What can I do against that? Just blast my hex through one hex after another? That seems awfully costly. Go for smaller encirclements of 5-10 units each week? What is the advice of experienced play testers in dealing with such a Soviet defense?

[image]http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/6986/wite3.jpg[/image]



elmo3 -> RE: Like the AI, but need some advice (12/12/2010 12:38:56 AM)

I've always had better luck pocketing the Soviets rather than just bulling straight forward.



Erik Rutins -> RE: Like the AI, but need some advice (12/12/2010 1:44:24 AM)

Hi fsp,

Yes, the AI is aware of dangerous maneuvers that could threaten its flanks and create encirclements and will try to avoid them. I agree, it's impressive. Definitely the best way to deal with the 'wall of soviet conscripts' defense is to try to pocket as many as you can. A pocket here, a pocket there, pretty soon you should have a breakthrough.

Regards,

- Erik



Titanwarrior89 -> RE: Like the AI, but need some advice (12/12/2010 1:48:03 AM)

Historicaly did the russians defend in-depth that deep(using the above screen)?



fsp -> RE: Like the AI, but need some advice (12/12/2010 4:46:32 AM)

I have had it happen to me several times now. Maybe it is normal to some of the other players. I am still amazed how the AI tries to get units out of a forming pocket. I have been wargaming for years and I have never seen an AI capable of that... Of course, encirclements are possible, but they are not that easy to pull off if you want huge and decisive ones... Great work!



kfmiller41 -> RE: Like the AI, but need some advice (12/12/2010 5:32:34 AM)

I feel your pain fsp, i am facing a similar front at kiev and have no idea how to get thru it.



CharonJr -> RE: Like the AI, but need some advice (12/12/2010 8:49:49 AM)

Yes, that situation looks fairly familiar ;)

Most likely your tanks (like mine were) are in need of some rest anyway. Just let them rest and move up the infantry to secure the front, then start to breakthrough at the flanks and try to create a large pocket along the river to the south of Smolensk using your infantry at first and then your armor and mech.

I failed at it once (not enough units to really seal off the pocket) and I liked that the AI was smart enough to pull its troops out of the potential pocket.

Either you are able to bag a large number of Soviets or you will be at least able to get them away from the river.

CharonJr



Redmarkus5 -> RE: Like the AI, but need some advice (12/12/2010 9:00:01 AM)

That kind of defence in depth is unrealistic and, given that the game play is action-point based, makes it more difficult for the attacking player than it should be, IMHO. The AI needs to stack more along the front line.



jjoshua -> RE: Like the AI, but need some advice (12/12/2010 9:05:35 AM)

Reading the above comments of Mr. Rutins, it sounds like this deep line of units is not totally unexpected. I am getting the hang of it better now, and maybe this is not something they will tweak.

Gotta admit, it do present some 'Mind Boggling' possibilities.



Redmarkus5 -> RE: Like the AI, but need some advice (12/12/2010 9:46:39 AM)

Turn off FoW and you'll get a bigger shock - there is even more depth there than you think. The question is, design intent or not, is such a line historically feasible at this early stage of the conflict?



karonagames -> RE: Like the AI, but need some advice (12/12/2010 10:18:57 AM)

quote:

The AI needs to stack more along the front line.


One of the key lessons in PBEM play is that linear defences are doomed to failure until they are based on level 3-4 entrenchments, when they should be strong enough to force the attacker to use deliberate attacks which, in turn, reduces the attackers ability to exploit any breakthroughs.

If the AI is filling the front line with 3 high stacks, then this is an invitation to be pocketed in large numbers, which is the last thing a defender wants or needs.



Redmarkus5 -> RE: Like the AI, but need some advice (12/12/2010 12:27:29 PM)

I understand that when playing a human in PBEM anything goes in terms of original tactical methods. However, when playing the AI on normal, I would expect to be able to create large pockets along historical lines through most of 1941. The actual Soviet generals conducted most of their operations in this period in a pretty clumsy fashion. The AI in 1941 SHOULD be stupid...



elmo3 -> RE: Like the AI, but need some advice (12/12/2010 12:31:22 PM)

Can't see your game to check but I'll bet a lot of those Soviet units are made of tissue paper that you'll be able to shred pretty easily.



karonagames -> RE: Like the AI, but need some advice (12/12/2010 12:35:15 PM)

Not wishing to blow my own trumpet or anything, but if you look at the "Field Marshal Noob" AAR, you will see that I was faced with a similar "Carpet" of AI units, but I still managed several large Pockets (Cherkassy turns 8-9).

The "carpet" doesn't last very long, once you can extend the length of the front line, the AI can't maintain this level of depth to it's defence.

Also if you look at the turn 10 screen shots in the AAR you will see the AI stacking units on the river line near Leningrad, which is a good place to do so. The AI will mix up it's techniques just like a human will.

The carpet defence looks scary but it isn't once you figure out the way to beat it.



henri51 -> RE: Like the AI, but need some advice (12/12/2010 12:44:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Titanwarrior89

Historicaly did the russians defend in-depth that deep(using the above screen)?


They did worse than that at Kursk, where they had a front 200 kms deep, that included 3 fortified lines.

Henri



Redmarkus5 -> RE: Like the AI, but need some advice (12/12/2010 2:02:45 PM)

Thanks BigA - I'll give it a go and see what happens.  Hopefully I can slice right through, but it still doesn't feel right.  I have played virtually every east front game ever produced but I have never seen anything like this situation before, human or AI.

Henri - Kursk was in 1943.  It was also only a small section of the total front line.  My point is that the Soviets didn't defend like that in 1941 in front of either Smolensk or Moscow, nor did they do so in 1942 in front of Stalingrad.  And at no time did they have such a defense in depth along such a vast section of the front.

I read somewhere in the forums that this is not a 'game' - it's a computer simulation of the conflict in Russia.  Well.... :)



Redmarkus5 -> RE: Like the AI, but need some advice (12/12/2010 2:11:36 PM)

OK, Turn 7 and my Finns on the southern stretch of the front have just been released. They have not yet attacked! However, the Soviet units have all fled, leaving only air units between the Finns and Leningrad. Is the AI programmed to take advantage of the fact that the Finns won't enter the city?


[image]local://upfiles/27287/C7760951B55F423E9F0B32DB3FB9B37F.jpg[/image]



Arstavidios -> RE: Like the AI, but need some advice (12/12/2010 2:39:06 PM)

Carpet defense is just a huge pocket in the making.
You have to cut through them and catch as many units as you can.
You can make massive pockets




Redmarkus5 -> RE: Like the AI, but need some advice (12/12/2010 2:39:28 PM)

Still on Turn 7. Kiev and Zhitomir abandoned by the AI without a fight... My armour can't advance fast enough to even see the enemy's dust down here in the south, much less create a pocket anywhere.



[image]local://upfiles/27287/25A0B74FEB164721A17300E7DE8F0B09.jpg[/image]



karonagames -> RE: Like the AI, but need some advice (12/12/2010 2:43:13 PM)

quote:

OK, Turn 7 and my Finns on the southern stretch of the front have just been released. They have not yet attacked! However, the Soviet units have all fled, leaving only air units between the Finns and Leningrad. Is the AI programmed to take advantage of the fact that the Finns won't enter the city?


Yes, this is pretty standard behaviour for GAIA, she takes units from here to put a "carpet" in front of Leningrad[;)]. She also cheats a bit by using Fortified Area units along the Svir river, which a human can't do because of the huge cost in APs.



karonagames -> RE: Like the AI, but need some advice (12/12/2010 2:47:56 PM)

quote:

Still on Turn 7. Kiev and Zhitomir abandoned by the AI without a fight... My armour can't advance fast enough to even see the enemy's dust down here in the south, much less create a pocket anywhere.


Hmmm.... that is unusual. Did you say you were playing on normal? The AI may have sucked too many units into it's carpet defence in front of Smolensk - she seems to put a high Value on Smolensk, but Kiev should be high value too. See if she drops the carpet and goes back to linear next turn. If not Joel/Gary might want to analyse a save.

edit: have you done recon? there could be units in the city and rough terrain you can't see yet.



Redmarkus5 -> RE: Like the AI, but need some advice (12/12/2010 2:48:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arstavidios

Carpet defense is just a huge pocket in the making.
You have to cut through them and catch as many units as you can.
You can make massive pockets




Hi. I'm not saying no to that. All I am saying is that this "historical simulation" isn't looking very historical at the moment. Am I the only person with that view? Let's get it fixed by highlighting the issues so that we can enjoy the challenge of an improved AI...

On the Northern and Southern fronts the Soviets have vaporized without a fight. In the centre they are spread 8-10 units deep with no stacking. What does this tell us?

1. Some tweaking is needed to ensure that the AI puts some priority into defending Kiev etc. and securing Leningrad from the Finns. At the moment it is taking Zhukov's 'Moscow first' strategy too literally.
2. The truly impressive ability of the AI to avoid pocketing needs to be turned off until Jan '42 and then introduced in increments.
3. The AI needs to stack along its defensive line first, before defending in depth. This would better reflect actual events.



Redmarkus5 -> RE: Like the AI, but need some advice (12/12/2010 2:50:46 PM)

Hi BigA.

Yes, all settings are normal except that I use FoW.

I agree that the Smolensk front can only be explained by the AI drawing off most of the strength from other fronts.

Where can I send the save game?



Erik Rutins -> RE: Like the AI, but need some advice (12/12/2010 2:51:32 PM)

You might want to play past Turn 7 to see how it does. Also, what settings are you playing on? I just saw that you are on Normal. If you do well enough on Normal, you can definitely force the AI to leave one or more fronts open to keep the key avenues closed. I don't see how we can judge if there is a problem until you play more of a full game. I've also managed to crack a front on Normal, but still had the AI hold me at the roughly historical limits by December. Keep playing is my advice.

Regards,

- Erik



karonagames -> RE: Like the AI, but need some advice (12/12/2010 2:52:36 PM)

PM sent



Redmarkus5 -> RE: Like the AI, but need some advice (12/12/2010 2:53:20 PM)

Look down south - almost no Soviets in sight...

[image]local://upfiles/27287/2E3BEB6096354173B7137B6B183D5F3F.jpg[/image]



Erik Rutins -> RE: Like the AI, but need some advice (12/12/2010 2:54:21 PM)

Nice breakthrough, keep playing. [8D]



Redmarkus5 -> RE: Like the AI, but need some advice (12/12/2010 2:55:11 PM)

Will do :) OK if I keep annoying too? ;)

[image]local://upfiles/27287/1410189EFDC441A1A33BE8127CABE414.jpg[/image]



karonagames -> RE: Like the AI, but need some advice (12/12/2010 2:58:42 PM)

quote:

I've also managed to crack a front on Normal, but still had the AI hold me at the roughly historical limits by December


Like Eric says, on normal, without the 110% morale bonus units, GAIA can go into "trade space for time" mode, and rely on the Axis running into the mud on turn 18, but she will always defend Moscow.



Erik Rutins -> RE: Like the AI, but need some advice (12/12/2010 3:10:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4
Will do :) OK if I keep annoying too? ;)


Absolutely! We can only improve the game with feedback, I just don't want to give you the impression that what you are seeing is a bug when I believe it's normal behavior as a result of you playing well on Normal. I also know based on past experience that you will get an education once the Mud and Snow arrive, so keep playing! If you are good enough to overcome all of that, then Challenging is the place you will want to be against the AI. The difference between Normal and Challenging is pretty huge.

Regards,

- Erik



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