RE: When is a torpedo bomber not a torpedo bomber? (Full Version)

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spence -> RE: When is a torpedo bomber not a torpedo bomber? (12/15/2010 11:57:24 PM)

Very informative. IIRC the Ryujo carries 12 B5's in its complement. Did she ever/could she ever launch them all at once?. The size of the raids mentioned above (and the one against the Pope - IIRC 6 x B5's) seems to indicate that the same doctrine used by the KB was applied to the Ryujo (1/2 the strike planes in the raid...the other half held in reserve). That doctrine for the KB was born of the spot limitations for those large CVs.




Brady -> RE: When is a torpedo bomber not a torpedo bomber? (12/16/2010 12:41:11 AM)

The body of the Text in the Linked thread seams to sugest she could spot 5 to 6 fully loaded kates at once, but their are referances that show she could also launch her full complement of aircraft in short enough order to form a full strike package:

Here's some detail on the two verifiable kills A5Ms scored on Dec 8 1941 -on the water though, so not aerial kills. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Tills

Early on 8 December 1941, William B. Preston received a radio dispatch: "Japan started hostilities; govern yourselves accordingly."[4] Preston and her planes prepared for war. One Catalina took off immediately to search for Japanese ships in the area while Tills and the other Catalina stayed in the waters of Malalag Bay, ready to take off.[4]


Shortly before 8:00 AM, nine Mitsubishi A5M4 "Claudes" escorting 13 Nakajima B5N1 "Kate" from the Japanese carrier Ryujo approached Malalag Bay from Davao Gulf. Ignoring USS William B. Preston, they straffed the two helpless Catalinas 101-P-4 and 101-P-7 from VP-101. Ensign Robert Tills was killed by enemy fire while onboard his Catalina. The rest of the crew escaped unharmed and the Catalina sank to the bottom of the bay with Tills's remains still onboard. Robert Tills's body was never found and he joined a list with 78,000 other Americans missing in action during World War II




Mynok -> RE: When is a torpedo bomber not a torpedo bomber? (12/16/2010 2:29:27 AM)


Very interesting stuff there Brady.




Puhis -> RE: When is a torpedo bomber not a torpedo bomber? (12/16/2010 6:49:35 AM)

Yes, thanks a lot Brady, really good info! [sm=bow.gif]

But it must be BS, right? We all know that japanese CVLs could not launch Kates with torpedoes or 800 kg bombs... [:-]

Ryujo's flight deck was just 156,5 meters, and max speed was 29 knots.
For example Zuiho's flight deck was 23,5 meters longer, while max speed was just 1 knot slower. So if Ruyjo could launch torpedo planes...




mike scholl 1 -> RE: When is a torpedo bomber not a torpedo bomber? (12/16/2010 1:52:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Brady

Shortly before 8:00 AM, nine Mitsubishi A5M4 "Claudes" escorting 13 Nakajima B5N1 "Kate" from the Japanese carrier Ryujo approached Malalag Bay from Davao Gulf. Ignoring USS William B. Preston, they straffed the two helpless Catalinas 101-P-4 and 101-P-7 from VP-101. Ensign Robert Tills was killed by enemy fire while onboard his Catalina. The rest of the crew escaped unharmed and the Catalina sank to the bottom of the bay with Tills's remains still onboard. Robert Tills's body was never found and he joined a list with 78,000 other Americans missing in action during World War II




This would basically be "range-dependent" wouldn't it Brady? If the range were short enough, there was plenty of time and fuel to spot and launch everything aboard a carrier while the rest burned fuel circling. But unfortunately the game doesn't really reflect such usage. It simply "gives" the Japanese the ability to launch "full complement strikes" from any range; which is something they certainly weren't capable of.




Nikademus -> RE: When is a torpedo bomber not a torpedo bomber? (12/16/2010 3:32:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Puhis

Yes, thanks a lot Brady, really good info! [sm=bow.gif]

But it must be BS, right? We all know that japanese CVLs could not launch Kates with torpedoes or 800 kg bombs... [:-]

Ryujo's flight deck was just 156,5 meters, and max speed was 29 knots.
For example Zuiho's flight deck was 23,5 meters longer, while max speed was just 1 knot slower. So if Ruyjo could launch torpedo planes...




Japanese CVL's could launch B5N's with torps.....just not alot of them per strike....which was why they only carried a Chutai's worth while the rest of their capacity was used for fighters.




Brady -> RE: When is a torpedo bomber not a torpedo bomber? (12/19/2010 3:43:24 PM)

I thought I would post this in it's entirety as I found it to be very interesting, again from J-Aircraft C/O Mark E Horan:

Gents;

My post above on the Ryujo shipping strikes on 5/6 April are just that - the shipping strikes - it does not included the operations against land targets.  Note also, the Japanese records record ordnance expended not necessarily the entire ordnance load out.  Depending on the events and comments one can determine if the entire ordnance load was expended or not.  In the case of the heavier ordnance (torpedoes & 800 kg bombs particularly), landing back aboard fully loaded was not authorized, so even if an attack did not take place the ordnance was "expended".

So, the search/strike pairs that expended no ordnance did not find anything, and not being fully loaded, landed back aboard with their ordnance intact.  My translation ability is barely above nil, so I do not pretend to know all the details.  I surmise the following:

5 April: Range one (not included above) was composed of three B5Ns assigned to three single plane search sectors - no ordnance was expended and likely none was carried as single plane searches never expend any.

5 April: Range two was made up of 4 pairs of aircraft assigned to four search sectors.  Apparently all aircraft were armed with 4 x 60 kg bombs each.  One pair found nothing and returned with their ordnance.  The pair that aborted evidently jettisoned theirs.  Wish I could read the mission notes for the other two pairs :)

5 April: Range three apparently was launched to replace the aborted pair, likely armed as above, but whatever their target was, only half the ordnance - wish I could read the mission notes :)

6 April: Range one composed of two pairs assigned to two sectors.  The ordnance expended show a different load out, but that is not necessarily the case, especially since the range was so small.  It is possible that the target for the second pair did not warrant the expenditure of the entire load and that pair returned with the larger bombs.  Again, wish I could translate the mission notes :)

6 April: Range two was a Chutai sized strike group against a known shipping target.

6 April: Range three did not expend and ordnance -  though it is highly likely that they carried some as two plane efforts usually did - but again, wish I could read the notes :)

6 April: Range four, five, and six were the three Chutai sized strike groups against land targets.  I disagree with Mike W's comment that the ordnance chief had ADD [:)].  Rather, I think it was directly related to the availability of B5N2 aircraft in each Chutai capable of taking off with heavier loads.

Range four was composed of five planes with 1x250 & 4x60 each - I suspect all B5N1

Range five was composed of:
-- two planes with 1x800 each - I B5N2s as only they were capable of departing with such heavy loads
-- three with 1x250 & 4x60 each [although only 2x250s were expended, I believe the notes indicate that the other 250 failed to release] - again, I believe all B5N1s

Range six was identical to the first with five planes with 1x250 & 4x60 each - I believe all B5N1

Ryujo generally restricted her deckload launches to single Chutai efforts (five-six planes).  The few exceptions where she made bigger efforts were:

On 8 December 1941, she started the war with a maximum strength launch in two ranges.  A different notation was used for the ordnance expended making the identification of the bombs carried, at least by me, unknown. The first range was composed of a six-plane chutai of B5Ns carrying a load of 1 larger  bomb and 5 smaller each.  The second range was composed of an escort of 9 A5M4s and a seven-plane chutai of B5Ns carrying the same ordnance load as the first deckload.  This second deckload completed its launch 45 minutes after the first deckload, and the entire strike group departed as one force.

On 13 February 1942 the second range of the day was composed of eight B5Ns with 1x250 & 4x60 each. Likely the extras were B5N2s.

On 1 March 1942 two ranges of six B5Ns armed as above were sent of separately, 65 minutes apart.

During the Aleutian operation the ship had received a number of new planes including both A6M2 fighters and B5N2 attack planes.  While B5N1s were still carried, they now number less than 50% of the planes available.   On 3 & 4 June her strikes were made in two Chutai sized deckloads, with escort, that departed separately, while on 5 June nine B5Ns made the single largest deckload effort of the war, nine atack planes.  Six carried 2x250 & 2x60 each (likely all B5N2s), and three carried 2x250 each (at least one was a B5N1, the others could have been or were B5N2s that needed to drop weight because of a shorter deck run).

Hope this helps :)

Mark




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