RE: What PBEM House Rules do you suggest? (Full Version)

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PyleDriver -> RE: What PBEM House Rules do you suggest? (12/13/2010 5:41:42 PM)

Oddesa, why, that city needs to go down. House rule for that, please...



raizer -> RE: What PBEM House Rules do you suggest? (12/13/2010 5:57:41 PM)

Im slowly learning this-for pebm-if I were the germans and found that my russian player moved All his aircraft into the strategic reserve to avoid be destroyed on the ground, I would call that gamey as all heck.  That would be one house rule I would support and Im sure there are many more to come.



amatteucci -> RE: What PBEM House Rules do you suggest? (12/13/2010 6:14:59 PM)

I think it's too early to have a comprehensive list of houserules. I guess that one should wait for the first campaign games to finish. Many possible problems simply hadn't surfaced yet and, I presume and hope, many of those that will surface will be probably dealt with future patches.

Anyway, just to speak about one can already see, I don't think that Soviet early war Mechanized Corps are to be further restricted by HRs, they're already hampered enough as they are.

Perhaps some restriction on putting units in "refit" mode could be considered. It seems that units refitting get only advantages and no disadvantages.




Dr. Foo -> RE: What PBEM House Rules do you suggest? (12/13/2010 6:19:11 PM)

I am not a fan of House Rules and I do not care to use them. It is what turned me off of FiTE. I have so many things to keep track of as it is I doubt I'll remember that a certain corps is not allow to cross a certain river or that unit A should not be moved until turn X.



Flaviusx -> RE: What PBEM House Rules do you suggest? (12/13/2010 6:20:49 PM)

Red Air Force isn't very good in 1941, guys. After losing 5k+ planes in the opening surprise attack we are talking about evacuating dozens of shattered air groups down to single digits to recover and train as best they can. For months.

If not allowed to do this...I would simply disband the lot and save you the trouble. They are quite literally useless and will not fly missions worth a damn. Might as well start over from scratch with new groups. New groups are formed in the national reserve, btw. And I'd let them train there for a good long time.

In the end, all of these gymnastics and handwringing about the Red Air Force just don't matter very much. The Luftwaffe will rule the skies in 1941, rest assured.

Pieter, we've been through this on the refits. My answer now is the same it was before: it's just a replacement tool for me. Get rid of the morale benefit and I'd still use refits exactly as I do now to deal with my replacement situation.

Finally, you know where I stand on static unit AP farming. I think it's tactically stupid and more trouble than it's worth. I flatly refuse to base my tactical deployments on it and believe it could wind up costing you more APs and units than otherwise. As cheats go, it is imo self defeating.



Flaviusx -> RE: What PBEM House Rules do you suggest? (12/13/2010 6:31:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

One house rule that a tester proposed was that only Rumanian units can attack Odessa (and perhaps within 3 hexes or so of the city).


I oppose this on principle, even as the Soviet.

These sorts of operational/strategic decisions are best left in the hands of the players, in the end.

If the German wants to commit units to taking Odessa, then let him do so. Those units will be missed somewhere else. There are no free lunches in the Eastern Front.

The moment we open up this can of worms the possibilities are endless on both sides. Let it alone.



Tophat1815 -> RE: What PBEM House Rules do you suggest? (12/13/2010 6:43:18 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: amatteucci

I think it's too early to have a comprehensive list of houserules. I guess that one should wait for the first campaign games to finish. Many possible problems simply hadn't surfaced yet and, I presume and hope, many of those that will surface will be probably dealt with future patches.

Anyway, just to speak about one can already see, I don't think that Soviet early war Mechanized Corps are to be further restricted by HRs, they're already hampered enough as they are.

Perhaps some restriction on putting units in "refit" mode could be considered. It seems that units refitting get only advantages and no disadvantages.



I agree with you 100% here. Myself i bought the game day of release,played tutorial and road to Minsk numerous times now and gone back to read the manual. other than the extreme "putting the whole RED army on refit to bump morale up" I don't see anywhere that there is enough info to make educated house rules. Also ComradeP speaking of hiding the Red airforce in the national reserve sounds potentially annoying.

other than those 2 items I would suggest coming back to this thread in 3 months or so after we have some campaign pbem's to reference.





pompack -> RE: What PBEM House Rules do you suggest? (12/13/2010 7:50:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Pieter, we've been through this on the refits. My answer now is the same it was before: it's just a replacement tool for me. Get rid of the morale benefit and I'd still use refits exactly as I do now to deal with my replacement situation.



Agree completely. The Refit function seems to perform two rather different operational functions:
1) Replacement control- use Refit to determine who gets replacements and who doesn't
2) "Real Refit"- pull a unit off the line and allow the troops some R&R to recover morale as well as rest and absorb replacements


I would suggest a code change rather than a House Rule: Units receive special morale recovery benefit ONLY if in Refit Mode AND not adjacent to an enemy unit AND have not moved in the turn



Flaviusx -> RE: What PBEM House Rules do you suggest? (12/13/2010 7:56:13 PM)

Pompack that's a pretty good suggestion, actually.




ComradeP -> RE: What PBEM House Rules do you suggest? (12/13/2010 7:57:24 PM)

Flavio: the morale benefit is there, which is the whole issue. You can say that you'd still use it without that benefit, and of course I believe you, but that doesn't change that the morale benefit is currently there, and that refitting everyone quickly gets Soviet morale to 50, which is what I would call gamey.

The point that placing everyone on refit is a way of getting the Soviet army in shape is also something that I still don't believe. Placing everyone on refit means minimal replacements per unit. The only thing it does do for all units, is increase morale when below 50. On those grounds, I oppose it.

The national reserve rule is also for the Luftwaffe, which doen't even technically have room to retreat to in later war campaigns due to the Allied bombing campaign.

pompack's suggestion sounds good.



Flaviusx -> RE: What PBEM House Rules do you suggest? (12/13/2010 8:00:11 PM)

Pieter, how about Pompack's proposed code change? I think this would please all parties.



ComradeP -> RE: What PBEM House Rules do you suggest? (12/13/2010 8:02:04 PM)

I've posted it on the suggestion part of the tester forum, I've added a note that possibly the no movement requirement could be dropped as that would possibly penalize unready/depleted divisions that are moving up to the front too much. THOSE divisions should be refitting to get up to strength, at least as I see it, so they should get a morale boost from getting up to strength, which is how I interpret the morale benefit. Enemy unit could also possibly be changed to enemy hex.



FredSanford3 -> RE: What PBEM House Rules do you suggest? (12/13/2010 11:23:06 PM)

I'd go more than one hex away for Refit. Only 10 miles? I'd say more like 5 hexes (isn't that what construction bn's are limited to?). OR, give them a very substantial handicap if they get into combat, like a 75% morale & CV reduction and let the player take his chances. To me, "Refit" means not deployed, weapons/ammo stored, equipment in the shop, troops on leave or in training, etc.



Redmarkus5 -> RE: What PBEM House Rules do you suggest? (12/13/2010 11:44:59 PM)

I agree. If the Soviets decide to pull their whole air force out of combat, that's a reasonable decision and could have happened in reality.



Sabre21 -> RE: What PBEM House Rules do you suggest? (12/13/2010 11:45:05 PM)

I have no problem with how the rules work as written including refit, airborne drops, amphibs...or even bombing Ploesti on turn 1. The only real gamey thing that I am concerned with are the border areas is in the smaller scenarios. Take Case Blue for instance. In the game I am running with Stuart, as part of that AAR posted on Wargamer, it would be very easy for me to break thru his line north of Stalingrad across the Don where I currently have a large bridgehead, and cut north to the map edge cutting supply for every unit of his west of there.

I can make it wide enough that he would be unable to regain supply and fortify that line with up to 5 full panzer corps. He would lose half of his onboard units as a result. This to me is about as cheesy as it gets and I told Stuart I wouldn't try that (unless all else fails..haha..just joking Stuart). So there is one house rule that probably should be considered. The first few turns isn't a big issue with short envelopments being ok figuring you would have had other units in the non-map areas. But once the front is set, being able to cut behind 15 or 20 hexes deep is a bit too much.

Andy



Redmarkus5 -> RE: What PBEM House Rules do you suggest? (12/13/2010 11:46:40 PM)

Again, I agree. The idea of House Rules is to have a simple set of high-level guidelines for streamlined fair play. Not a complex monster list and not a list that prevents flexibility and realistic strategic/operational choices. (IMHO)



Redmarkus5 -> RE: What PBEM House Rules do you suggest? (12/13/2010 11:48:59 PM)

And noob replacements coming in without ever having fired a rifle... :)



hgilmer3 -> RE: What PBEM House Rules do you suggest? (12/13/2010 11:55:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BigAnorak

I think time will tell whether House rules are needed. I know Andy (Sabre21)tried to "Break" the game doing lots of cheesy stuff like Bombing Ploesti(sp?) on every turn with the long range bombers, for example, but I don't think the game broke, and he lost a ton of bombers.


I had a customer who bombed Ploesti (a judge and a not very nice person, altough he got better as I knew him. He is passed away now).

He said, "They gave us medals and it was a GD bloodbath!"



PyleDriver -> RE: What PBEM House Rules do you suggest? (12/14/2010 12:00:31 AM)

Well I may be going on a limb on this statement. Its really hard to say this even as good as it is now. It was rushed into production even after 28 months of strait testing because of public demand. Its really bug free, some small quirks are there, but fun and very playable. So now, everyone has a voice who has the game. Joel is the best at listening. We don't need house rules. We need good arguements for change! There is a suggestion area, use it.



Flaviusx -> RE: What PBEM House Rules do you suggest? (12/14/2010 12:05:53 AM)

I agree with Jon, if we're going to change the game let's do it officially and not mess around with house rules nonsense. Make a case for a code change and we will consider it, and in fact I've see some pretty good suggestions in this thread and elsewhere already.

I'm ultimately interested primarily in PBEM, and strongly dislike the idea of having the WitE PBEM community balkanized by house rules. Which, to my mind, is really about people lobbying to handicap the game in their favor. (Cynical, I know.) Far better to work with a unified set of official rules and code, peer reviewed by the entire community, which can reach some sort of consensus on these matters working with the developers. The game hasn't stopped evolving, but it needs to evolve in a single direction.




Titanwarrior89 -> RE: What PBEM House Rules do you suggest? (12/14/2010 12:11:31 AM)

Same here. NONE
quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

I haven't played any PBEM games yet, but given the massive scope and complexity of the game, I would be disinclined to use any house rules which make things even more complicated...

For example, I just don't see German amphibious landings as being that big of a threat...




PyleDriver -> RE: What PBEM House Rules do you suggest? (12/14/2010 12:12:20 AM)

Opp's we have a suggestion box on our testers forum not here...Joel or Erik, it might be good to add one here also...



jomni -> RE: What PBEM House Rules do you suggest? (12/14/2010 12:39:51 AM)

This is not WITP, so we don't need house rules! [:D]

Joking aside, I guess it's too early to tell.  But it seems that WITE would need less house rules, or none at all. WITP is more flexible as a lot of factors are left for the player to manipulate which results into gamey stuff. I think WITE is more controled.



Wild -> RE: What PBEM House Rules do you suggest? (12/14/2010 4:34:28 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

I agree with Jon, if we're going to change the game let's do it officially and not mess around with house rules nonsense. Make a case for a code change and we will consider it, and in fact I've see some pretty good suggestions in this thread and elsewhere already.

I'm ultimately interested primarily in PBEM, and strongly dislike the idea of having the WitE PBEM community balkanized by house rules. Which, to my mind, is really about people lobbying to handicap the game in their favor. (Cynical, I know.) Far better to work with a unified set of official rules and code, peer reviewed by the entire community, which can reach some sort of consensus on these matters working with the developers. The game hasn't stopped evolving, but it needs to evolve in a single direction.




I agree with Flaviusk. This seems like the best decision.



Redmarkus5 -> RE: What PBEM House Rules do you suggest? (12/14/2010 12:02:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

I agree with Jon, if we're going to change the game let's do it officially and not mess around with house rules nonsense. Make a case for a code change and we will consider it, and in fact I've see some pretty good suggestions in this thread and elsewhere already.

I'm ultimately interested primarily in PBEM, and strongly dislike the idea of having the WitE PBEM community balkanized by house rules. Which, to my mind, is really about people lobbying to handicap the game in their favor. (Cynical, I know.) Far better to work with a unified set of official rules and code, peer reviewed by the entire community, which can reach some sort of consensus on these matters working with the developers. The game hasn't stopped evolving, but it needs to evolve in a single direction.




Well, "nonsense" it may be, but at least the discussion produced some useful outputs and an agreement that improvements are needed. That's a step in the right direction.

First time I paid for something and was then told my comments are nonsense, by the way. The moderator here needs to sort out the way the virtual Matrix team communicates with customers, IMO.



76mm -> RE: What PBEM House Rules do you suggest? (12/14/2010 12:35:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4
First time I paid for something and was then told my comments are nonsense, by the way. The moderator here needs to sort out the way the virtual Matrix team communicates with customers, IMO.


IMO you're being a bit thin-skinned, I personally prefer some give and take on these game forums, as long as everyone behaves like adults, as everyone on this thread (so far!) has done. Any game developer that always agrees with their customers is basically doomed...
[8D]



morganbj -> RE: What PBEM House Rules do you suggest? (12/14/2010 3:26:38 PM)

House rules? House Rules? We don't need no stinkin' house rules.


[image]local://upfiles/26136/DED62ECB289C46CFA7FA4256E388F832.jpg[/image]



ComradeP -> RE: What PBEM House Rules do you suggest? (12/14/2010 3:45:54 PM)

Surprises usually don't work in my favour, so I'd rather have some fixed house rules for the really game stuff than be the victim of them. You can all say no house rules are needed, but I'm 99% sure a player will complain if someone pulls a really gamey move on you that could easily have been prevented by a house rule. It happened for WitP:AE, and it will happen here too.



PyleDriver -> RE: What PBEM House Rules do you suggest? (12/14/2010 3:50:40 PM)

What the hell was the name of that movie anyway, in which John Belushi said that "Badges, we don't need no stinking badges"...He was the Mexican in that one.



76mm -> RE: What PBEM House Rules do you suggest? (12/14/2010 3:59:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP
You can all say no house rules are needed, but I'm 99% sure a player will complain if someone pulls a really gamey move on you that could easily have been prevented by a house rule.


I'm sure it would be very irritating and make the game less fun, but how many gamey tactics have the potential to be game-winners? Because I think having to keep track of a plethora of house rules would also make the game much less fun...



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