How have you done on Road to Minsk? (Full Version)

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GBS -> How have you done on Road to Minsk? (12/16/2010 3:16:15 PM)

In three trys I have one minor loss and two draws. I not very good yet because it's hard to plan until you understand whats happening and why. But I'm improving. One note...the panzers are so powerful and so mobile that they tend to really out run well everything. Understanding a way to keep them supported and supplied is crucial....just like the real thing. This is the hardest war game I have ever tried to play correctly...and I say that as a good thing.




Davekhps -> RE: How have you done on Road to Minsk? (12/16/2010 6:06:16 PM)

I never managed to get a major victory, but I had minor victory down pat.

Turn one begins with air recon and airfield attacks.

I used as few infantry units as possible from as few headquarters as possible to open up the front lines.  Where possible, I used infantry units farthest back leaving the units up front with their maximum in MPs.  I made sure the openings were wide enough to enable my panzers to avoid ZOCs and/or displacing routed units, HQs and airbases I wanted to pocket.

Then I marched as few infantry as possible into positions to block the pocket.  Where possible, I broke down those units to maximize the isolation of the pocket with the minimal investment in units.  The rest of my infantry I marched as far as possible to the east.  You can be really bold here with cordoning off the pocket as in the Minsk scenario the Soviets won't really try to break into, or out of, that pocket as long as it's well-isolated.

FYI, even doing this, I still had to use a mobile unit or two to help close the eastern edge of the big pocket.

Then, I let the panzers fly (I ruthlessly try not to attack with them on turn one if I can avoid it-- the MPs are more valuable for the advance than the attack).  But I did so in a way to come close to Minsk, but not focus on it.  It was more important for me to get those panzers in position for the Day 3 objectives on the eastern edge of the map (Vitebsk, Mogilev, or whatever that objective is in the south, Tobulin or Zhlobin or what-have-you).  Where necessary to form a deep pocket I'd split up the panzer units, but I tried to avoid doing that too much as you want to begin the advance again the next day.

Then finish off with moving up HQs and airbases to secure locations forward.  Make sure you move your Panzer Corps headquarters close by to assist with both supply AND use of support units in any deliberate assaults later you choose to do on Turn 2.  Try to keep your panzer units one hex away from enemy units to avoid attrition over the turn.

On Day 2, after air recon I reverse order and start with the panzers (since the game weights air attacks early in your turn, you don't want to waste air attacks against the Soviet forces trapped in the pocket).  I close around Minsk with as few units as possible, again using breakdowns into regiments where necessary.  With my remaining forces I try to reach positions as deep as possible to get the eastern edge objectives.  I ensure my panzer HQs are close to my deepest units-- any panzers trapping the Minsk pocket don't need to worry about supplies as much as my deep units.  Once the movement is done, I'll use air resupply for those deep units.  Then I'll launch any panzer attacks I need to make, maximizing my surviving airpower.

Once that's done, then I use the infantry to reduce the main pocket.  The infantry that's beyond the pocket tries to establish any secondary pockets where possible further along, with some units joining the panzers around Minsk.

On turn 3, air recon, then panzer attacks against the eastern objectives.  I try to always begin with a deliberate attack at this point-- your best chance of victory is usually on the first turn-- but I'm mindful of my MPs, must keep a reserve to exploit any breakthrough against the urban objectives. 

At this point, I'll know whether I've won the scenario or not-- if my panzers managed to capture those eastern objectives, I'm golden; if not, no amount of success elsewhere will put me over the top.

Either way, once that's done, I'll capture the Minsk pocket, and any others I've formed.  I'll also displace any HQs and routed units I can in order to run up the score.

Anyway, if others see something I'm doing wrong here, please let me know.  I'm pretty bold with my panzers in this scenario, given the early penalties for the Soviets (and that it's just against the AI).  But every time I played it, I was always impressed by the "bridge too far" aspect of the victory conditions.  Both the Road to Minsk and Road to Leningrad scenarios feel like they need just one more desperate turn for the Axis to win easily, but of course, you don't have one more turn.  Great little design that way.

Still, I'd love to learn the trick on how to get those elusive major victories...




blastpop -> RE: How have you done on Road to Minsk? (12/16/2010 7:38:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Davekhps

I never managed to get a major victory, but I had minor victory down pat.

Turn one begins with air recon and airfield attacks.

I used as few infantry units as possible from as few headquarters as possible to open up the front lines.  Where possible, I used infantry units farthest back leaving the units up front with their maximum in MPs.  I made sure the openings were wide enough to enable my panzers to avoid ZOCs and/or displacing routed units, HQs and airbases I wanted to pocket.

Then I marched as few infantry as possible into positions to block the pocket.  Where possible, I broke down those units to maximize the isolation of the pocket with the minimal investment in units.  The rest of my infantry I marched as far as possible to the east.  You can be really bold here with cordoning off the pocket as in the Minsk scenario the Soviets won't really try to break into, or out of, that pocket as long as it's well-isolated.

FYI, even doing this, I still had to use a mobile unit or two to help close the eastern edge of the big pocket.

Then, I let the panzers fly (I ruthlessly try not to attack with them on turn one if I can avoid it-- the MPs are more valuable for the advance than the attack).  But I did so in a way to come close to Minsk, but not focus on it.  It was more important for me to get those panzers in position for the Day 3 objectives on the eastern edge of the map (Vitebsk, Mogilev, or whatever that objective is in the south, Tobulin or Zhlobin or what-have-you).  Where necessary to form a deep pocket I'd split up the panzer units, but I tried to avoid doing that too much as you want to begin the advance again the next day.

Then finish off with moving up HQs and airbases to secure locations forward.  Make sure you move your Panzer Corps headquarters close by to assist with both supply AND use of support units in any deliberate assaults later you choose to do on Turn 2.  Try to keep your panzer units one hex away from enemy units to avoid attrition over the turn.

On Day 2, after air recon I reverse order and start with the panzers (since the game weights air attacks early in your turn, you don't want to waste air attacks against the Soviet forces trapped in the pocket).  I close around Minsk with as few units as possible, again using breakdowns into regiments where necessary.  With my remaining forces I try to reach positions as deep as possible to get the eastern edge objectives.  I ensure my panzer HQs are close to my deepest units-- any panzers trapping the Minsk pocket don't need to worry about supplies as much as my deep units.  Once the movement is done, I'll use air resupply for those deep units.  Then I'll launch any panzer attacks I need to make, maximizing my surviving airpower.

Once that's done, then I use the infantry to reduce the main pocket.  The infantry that's beyond the pocket tries to establish any secondary pockets where possible further along, with some units joining the panzers around Minsk.

On turn 3, air recon, then panzer attacks against the eastern objectives.  I try to always begin with a deliberate attack at this point-- your best chance of victory is usually on the first turn-- but I'm mindful of my MPs, must keep a reserve to exploit any breakthrough against the urban objectives. 

At this point, I'll know whether I've won the scenario or not-- if my panzers managed to capture those eastern objectives, I'm golden; if not, no amount of success elsewhere will put me over the top.

Either way, once that's done, I'll capture the Minsk pocket, and any others I've formed.  I'll also displace any HQs and routed units I can in order to run up the score.

Anyway, if others see something I'm doing wrong here, please let me know.  I'm pretty bold with my panzers in this scenario, given the early penalties for the Soviets (and that it's just against the AI).  But every time I played it, I was always impressed by the "bridge too far" aspect of the victory conditions.  Both the Road to Minsk and Road to Leningrad scenarios feel like they need just one more desperate turn for the Axis to win easily, but of course, you don't have one more turn.  Great little design that way.

Still, I'd love to learn the trick on how to get those elusive major victories...


These are good hints that will I think help in any of the scenarios starting June 22, 1941.

In particular this scenario is so short and not part of a campaign there is no disincentive not to be ruthless in the use of the German forces. If starting a campaign it might be advisable to be a bit more careful for the sake of force preservation?




hgilmer3 -> RE: How have you done on Road to Minsk? (12/17/2010 12:31:47 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GBS

In three tries I have one minor loss and two draws. I not very good yet because it's hard to plan until you understand whats happening and why. But I'm improving. One note...the panzers are so powerful and so mobile that they tend to really out run well everything. Understanding a way to keep them supported and supplied is crucial....just like the real thing. This is the hardest war game I have ever tried to play correctly...and I say that as a good thing.


I played it 10 times and lost 8. Then got 1 minor victory. Then I got a major victory.

On the first turn I try to create the big pocket between Minsk and my front lines, and then a smaller pocket between the big pocket and Minsk.

I make sure I do airdrop (if possible) then recon, first thing every turn.


TURN 1

I use only infantry units to break out on turn 1. Down in Brest Litvosk, I work my infantry units to the point that I can get 5 infantry units in on a deliberate attack. That usually frees that city up.

Once I have a 3 hex wide break in Soviet lines, I take my furthest away from front line mobile unit, whether it be mechanized, panzer, or whatever and I move it through on a rail line. I make judgments of how they attack based on what they face. But, by using the furthest to the closest, I "leapfrog" the mobile units.

If I do it right, on the first turn I have created 2 pockets and I have 2-3 mobile units right next to Minsk. On Minsk, I usually can only conduct hasty attacks at this point still in turn one, which I do with at least 2 units. I know I will not win those battles, but the objective is to reduce the fort to 0. The Southern Panzers and mechanized units go towards Minsk on the Brest Litvosk to Baronanichi line, then straight East from there along the rail line through Kopyl, Slutsk, and Starye Dorogi.

In the North, I make sure I take Kaunas and Vilnius on the first turn. Then I follow the rail from Vilnius to Minsk. As I'm doing this, I'm making sure to widen the "swath" of hex control I have with each succeeding Panzer unit, whenever feasible.

2ND TURN.

I make sure Minsk is pocketed by defeating every unit around Minsk, but don't attack Minsk. Once Minsk is isolated, I start all mobile units around Minsk East toward Mogilev. (I haven't rethought that strategy, yet, so I was planning on revisiting whether I use mobile to clear out around Minsk).

The Southen Panzers and Mechanized, I keep going East through...Osipovichi and Bobruisk. At this point, you can almost walk into Schlobin for one of the East border objectives. The Panzers from Minsk should be able to take Mogilev on the 3rd turn. Infantry mops up pocketed units on turn 2 and makes the pocket more secure, if needed, and also making sure to get a lot of them as close to Minsk as possible.

3RD TURN

Take Minsk with infantry in range, probably the ones coming from the Northern sector that are marching just to the South of Kaunas and Vilnius.

Finish up attack on Mogilev. Finish up Schlobin if the AI moved some units into Schlobin. Sometimes it is completely undefended.

NOTES:

Taking Brest-Litvosk, Kaunas, Vilnius, Minsk, Mogilev, and Schlobin will give you a Major victory. There's a strategy, of course, to take some of the Northern Panzers straight through never stopping and keep going to Vitebsk. If successful, you can take all 3 objectives on the East Border and will give you the highest victory total since you'll have take all objectives. I never played another Minsk after the major victory because I had played it 10 times and never cared to play it more to get the Full Victory.

You have to make sure your HQs are close enough to your panzers and mechanized. This is one of the keys. There's one corps in the South that has a mix of infantry and panzers. If you move the panzers the furthest they can go you won't be able to have all the units in HQ range because they'll be too far from the infantry. What I do is re-attach the infantry in that corps to the 2nd panzer which is a mostly infantry, I believe. That way you can more thoroughly use your panzers. If you hit your rolls, I think it cost 4 Admin points. If you miss one roll, it will cost you 6 admin points. You have enough to cover that.




hgilmer3 -> RE: How have you done on Road to Minsk? (12/17/2010 12:37:30 AM)

That's the strategy I used to win a major victory.  I destroyed upwards of 360K of Soviet troops.   One thing I did not mention was, anywhere you can move a unit out of the way with an infantry as opposed to a panzer, I did, to save Panzer MPs.  But, sometimes, you just have to use them.  




hgilmer3 -> RE: How have you done on Road to Minsk? (12/17/2010 2:24:02 AM)

I decided to go back and replay Road To Minsk and got a Decisive victory using the strategy I described. Pretty psyched - Normal difficulty, FOW on everything.



[image]local://upfiles/30894/72DA218FCA754C41995F15A86C45EA23.jpg[/image]




Rickuh -> RE: How have you done on Road to Minsk? (12/18/2010 1:10:59 AM)

quote:

Down in Brest Litvosk, I work my infantry units to the point that I can get 5 infantry units in on a deliberate attack. That usually frees that city up.


I drive away the supporting HQ behind Brest Litovsk by moving next to it with an infantry unit from 4th Army. Then the city will fall to a deliberate attack with the 3 divisions directly across the river. No HQ = no supporting units. Worked every time so far.




jomni -> RE: How have you done on Road to Minsk? (12/21/2010 5:24:28 AM)

Only played it once as Axis and I lost.  Never got the victory cities.




Krupinski -> RE: How have you done on Road to Minsk? (12/21/2010 11:04:56 AM)

German major victory - how to: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2658866




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