RE: high supply

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Panama -> RE: high supply (12/24/2010 7:28:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ColinWright quote: ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653 As if all that isn't confusing enough, I've got another brain twister. In the two screen shots I posted, there is an HQ unit at the bottom right of the map. It contains artillery, and I shot off a number of rounds until it was down to 1% supply level. It didn't move, is next to a supply point, the scenario supply capacity is 60 (going up to 67 at times due to TAS) and its formation supply level is 100%. At the start of next turn I expect it to gain at least 60, but it gains only 50. Then I move the SU next to the HQ unit and expect at least 60 x 1.5 = 90, but again only get 50. No bonus for being next to the SU ? Maybe the HQ lacked the requisite form. [:D] Accursed bureaucrats.

sPzAbt653 -> RE: high supply (12/24/2010 8:09:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Panama quote: ORIGINAL: ColinWright quote: ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653 As if all that isn't confusing enough, I've got another brain twister. In the two screen shots I posted, there is an HQ unit at the bottom right of the map. It contains artillery, and I shot off a number of rounds until it was down to 1% supply level. It didn't move, is next to a supply point, the scenario supply capacity is 60 (going up to 67 at times due to TAS) and its formation supply level is 100%. At the start of next turn I expect it to gain at least 60, but it gains only 50. Then I move the SU next to the HQ unit and expect at least 60 x 1.5 = 90, but again only get 50. No bonus for being next to the SU ? Maybe the HQ lacked the requisite form. [:D] Accursed bureaucrats. I personally authorized them to receive 100% of available supply, and the quartermaster assured me that they could deliver 1.5 x that ! Heads will roll !! [:@]

ColinWright -> RE: high supply (12/24/2010 11:31:35 PM)
Merry Christmas, everybody.

Curtis Lemay -> RE: high supply (12/25/2010 4:25:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Panama Yes, it's doing it's job until it gets to that last hex at the arrow head. If the supply is extended by one radius, 4 movement points, should that last hex also be 40? On the other hand, if it's counted from that last hex, where the arrow head is, back to the supply unit, it's 3 movement points. That last hex is the reason for the screen shot. That is the hex that I thought should be displayed as full supply but isn't. What am I missing? The railhead is one hex SE of Skaudvile, right? The hex in question is 5 MPs from that location. So, if you deduct 4 MPs, that still leaves it 1 MP from the railhead. That gives it a value of 34, not 40.

Curtis Lemay -> RE: high supply (12/25/2010 4:29:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653 As if all that isn't confusing enough, I've got another brain twister. In the two screen shots I posted, there is an HQ unit at the bottom right of the map. It contains artillery, and I shot off a number of rounds until it was down to 1% supply level. It didn't move, is next to a supply point, the scenario supply capacity is 60 (going up to 67 at times due to TAS) and its formation supply level is 100%. At the start of next turn I expect it to gain at least 60, but it gains only 50. Then I move the SU next to the HQ unit and expect at least 60 x 1.5 = 90, but again only get 50. No bonus for being next to the SU ? I've tested this in the past and I found there was a max limit of 50 supply a unit could gain in any given supply phase, regardless of any calculated figure. And if you want to know why, ask Norm.

Silvanski -> RE: high supply (12/25/2010 5:42:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay quote: As Silvanski pointed out, there's no discernible effect other than HQ-like 50% boost (for adjacent cooperating units) of using supply units. Silvanski was mistaken. The boost is visible on the map display. Thanks for clearing this up.

sPzAbt653 -> RE: high supply (12/25/2010 6:42:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay quote: ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653 As if all that isn't confusing enough, I've got another brain twister. In the two screen shots I posted, there is an HQ unit at the bottom right of the map. It contains artillery, and I shot off a number of rounds until it was down to 1% supply level. It didn't move, is next to a supply point, the scenario supply capacity is 60 (going up to 67 at times due to TAS) and its formation supply level is 100%. At the start of next turn I expect it to gain at least 60, but it gains only 50. Then I move the SU next to the HQ unit and expect at least 60 x 1.5 = 90, but again only get 50. No bonus for being next to the SU ? I've tested this in the past and I found there was a max limit of 50 supply a unit could gain in any given supply phase, regardless of any calculated figure. And if you want to know why, ask Norm. 50 per turn is great, but in a few cases I was trying to get more for a few turns and couldn't, so knowing it is Norms fault makes it ok. Thanks very much. [&o]

Panama -> RE: high supply (12/25/2010 3:17:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay quote: ORIGINAL: Panama Yes, it's doing it's job until it gets to that last hex at the arrow head. If the supply is extended by one radius, 4 movement points, should that last hex also be 40? On the other hand, if it's counted from that last hex, where the arrow head is, back to the supply unit, it's 3 movement points. That last hex is the reason for the screen shot. That is the hex that I thought should be displayed as full supply but isn't. What am I missing? The railhead is one hex SE of Skaudvile, right? The hex in question is 5 MPs from that location. So, if you deduct 4 MPs, that still leaves it 1 MP from the railhead. That gives it a value of 34, not 40. Ah, I see. I misunderstood what the supply unit represented. I took it to mean the supply unit acted as a mobile railhead so long as it was within one supply radius of the actual railhead. In fact, it is a distance reduction device so long as a unit is within one supply radius of the mobile supply unit, merely subtracting one supply radius from the real distance of a unit from the railhead. [sm=00000007.gif] Thank you for helping me clear up that point. [sm=00000436.gif]

Curtis Lemay -> RE: high supply (12/25/2010 5:03:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Panama Ah, I see. I misunderstood what the supply unit represented. I took it to mean the supply unit acted as a mobile railhead so long as it was within one supply radius of the actual railhead. In fact, it is a distance reduction device so long as a unit is within one supply radius of the mobile supply unit, merely subtracting one supply radius from the real distance of a unit from the railhead. [sm=00000007.gif] Exactly. Think of the SU as a concentration of discretionary supply transport (basically, a lot of trucks). Enough to shift the supplies one radius closer to their destination than they would be without the SU. That's why I favor an enhancement that would make the SU's function proportionate to the fraction of authorized transport it contains. So, for example, if it only had half its authorized trucks, it would only shift half a supply radius, etc. Then you could strafe an SU and expect the enemy's supplies to drop.

Curtis Lemay -> RE: high supply (12/25/2010 5:07:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653 50 per turn is great, but in a few cases I was trying to get more for a few turns and couldn't, so knowing it is Norms fault makes it ok. Thanks very much. [&o] While it is as Norm no doubt intended it, that doesn't mean we can't hope for it to be changed. I can't really justify it. I think Norm just didn't like units recovering supply too fast. But why can't they?

Panama -> RE: high supply (12/25/2010 7:20:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay quote: ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653 50 per turn is great, but in a few cases I was trying to get more for a few turns and couldn't, so knowing it is Norms fault makes it ok. Thanks very much. [&o] While it is as Norm no doubt intended it, that doesn't mean we can't hope for it to be changed. I can't really justify it. I think Norm just didn't like units recovering supply too fast. But why can't they? One word. Isandlwana. A unit can be sitting on a supply depot and still not get enhanced supply simply because it was not officially approved conduct. [;)]

ColinWright -> RE: high supply (12/25/2010 11:22:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay quote: ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653 50 per turn is great, but in a few cases I was trying to get more for a few turns and couldn't, so knowing it is Norms fault makes it ok. Thanks very much. [&o] While it is as Norm no doubt intended it, that doesn't mean we can't hope for it to be changed. I can't really justify it. I think Norm just didn't like units recovering supply too fast. But why can't they? I suppose one could argue it can only be passed out so fast. It doesn't matter how many cases of 7.92 ammunition there are two km back -- it can only be run up to the front so quickly. Freakish results? Give the Dutch Army a high enough supply rate and it can overrun Germany? There's probably no reason you can't make it possible though -- although you might want to run a few checks to see if there was something Norm found out the hard way.

sPzAbt653 -> RE: high supply (12/26/2010 12:13:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay quote: ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653 50 per turn is great, but in a few cases I was trying to get more for a few turns and couldn't, so knowing it is Norms fault makes it ok. Thanks very much. [&o] While it is as Norm no doubt intended it, that doesn't mean we can't hope for it to be changed. I can't really justify it. I think Norm just didn't like units recovering supply too fast. But why can't they? quote: I suppose one could argue it can only be passed out so fast. Yes, arguements for both views. Overall, the designer can design. The two cases I was working on were Goodwood and Market-Garden, where the British had strong artillery for the initial bombardments. Playing the scenarios, all the artillery is down to the 1% level after a few rounds, and the following turn start at 50%. Still strong, but I was trying for very strong. I did read a blurp about the difficulty in moving all those 25 pounder shells from the dumps to the guns for Goodwood, and the fact that the advancing units outran the range of the artillery. So I put the artillery units in garrison, and on tactical support, on a rail hex, adjacent to a supply unit, but then they all jumped in on the disengagement attacks and went down to 1% anyway. [:(]

Curtis Lemay -> RE: high supply (12/26/2010 1:02:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Panama quote: ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay quote: ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653 50 per turn is great, but in a few cases I was trying to get more for a few turns and couldn't, so knowing it is Norms fault makes it ok. Thanks very much. [&o] While it is as Norm no doubt intended it, that doesn't mean we can't hope for it to be changed. I can't really justify it. I think Norm just didn't like units recovering supply too fast. But why can't they? One word. Isandlwana. A unit can be sitting on a supply depot and still not get enhanced supply simply because it was not officially approved conduct. [;)] Norm actually referenced Isandlwana in the manual: Consider the story of the quartermaster at Isandlwana (1879). As legend has it, the British troops had plenty of ammunition available, but the quartermaster refused to distribute it more rapidly than the official rate of replacement for British troops in the field. Good Force Supply Stockpile. poor Formation Supply Distribution Efficiency. Initially, good Unit Supply levels. As you can see, it's accounted for by "poor Formation Supply Distribution Efficiency". That's more than sufficient to account for that quartermaster. A blanket limit, however, imposes him on every force in history.

Curtis Lemay -> RE: high supply (12/26/2010 4:32:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653 Unrelated and probably not worthy of its own thread, 'high supply' doesn't work anymore? I tried a couple old COW scenarios and switching 'high' on/off didn't change anything. Let several turns run, and closed and restarted, but still the supply level stayed the same. Took me a while to figure this one out, since I've never used High Supply and wasn't familiar with just what it did. But, I can now say that it is working correctly. It doesn't change the FSL or on-map supply values. Rather, it adds a 1.5 factor to the supply equation. So, given the same on-map supply value, a unit will get 1.5 times as much supply with it on as without. To see this, run Arracourt with High Supply off. Without moving the Germans, cycle through to the second game turn. Note that German units have increased their unit supply from 60 to 64. Now do the same test with High Supply on. You'll find that the German units have increased their supply from 60 to 66 instead. They've received 50% more supply (6 instead of 4). Their FSL remains at 15 in both cases, as do on-map supply values.

sPzAbt653 -> RE: high supply (12/26/2010 5:39:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay quote: ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653 Unrelated and probably not worthy of its own thread, 'high supply' doesn't work anymore? I tried a couple old COW scenarios and switching 'high' on/off didn't change anything. Let several turns run, and closed and restarted, but still the supply level stayed the same. Took me a while to figure this one out, since I've never used High Supply and wasn't familiar with just what it did. But, I can now say that it is working correctly. It doesn't change the FSL or on-map supply values. Rather, it adds a 1.5 factor to the supply equation. So, given the same on-map supply value, a unit will get 1.5 times as much supply with it on as without. To see this, run Arracourt with High Supply off. Without moving the Germans, cycle through to the second game turn. Note that German units have increased their unit supply from 60 to 64. Now do the same test with High Supply on. You'll find that the German units have increased their supply from 60 to 66 instead. They've received 50% more supply (6 instead of 4). Their FSL remains at 15 in both cases, as do on-map supply values. Good grief, my tests were while playing, so I was monitoring the on map display and the situation briefings. As you discovered, it doesn't show up there. I re-ran without moving and sure enough, +50% over the actual/displayed. I'll add this to my rewrite of the manual !! Never used high supply ? Well, it helps with some of those low supply scenarios. But an increase from 4 to 6, not much help. And I assume that playing some of the COW scenarios with the new supply rules on might require ticking the high supply option.

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