Is the AI intentionally not defending Russian cities (Full Version)

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von Beanie -> Is the AI intentionally not defending Russian cities (12/17/2010 2:07:38 AM)

I haven't seen this mentioned yet, but perhaps I missed it. In the 1941 campaign at the challenging level, it is very rare for the AI to defend Minsk or Riga--unless I have them completely surrounded first. This has happened in two successive games during turn 2, so I'm wondering if this is a AI flaw, or intentional? Because of the defense bonus of cities, I would expect them to be garrisoned heavily.



schmolywar -> RE: Is the AI intentionally not defending Russian cities (12/17/2010 2:12:25 AM)

Noticed the same thing. Both in Minsk and Smolensk they leave also.



Flaviusx -> RE: Is the AI intentionally not defending Russian cities (12/17/2010 2:16:58 AM)

AI tends to value force preservation over most territorial objectives.

Personally, so do I. Riga and Minsk are nothingburgers and no place to throw away the Red Army. (Don't expect a Soviet player to leave lots of stuff in either place in PBEM for you to bag.)

But abandoning Smolensk is more of a concern.




jomni -> RE: Is the AI intentionally not defending Russian cities (12/17/2010 2:20:58 AM)

That AI actually plays smart!
It wants to you to over extend so that they can batter you.
Anyway I think the AI behavior is tweaked in the beta patches in order for them to leave a few static forces.



schmolywar -> RE: Is the AI intentionally not defending Russian cities (12/17/2010 2:21:17 AM)

I was in the process of encircling Smolensk, when during the soviets turn they pulled out their stacks in droves.



Erik Rutins -> RE: Is the AI intentionally not defending Russian cities (12/17/2010 3:00:19 AM)

The AI will try to avoid being encircled, as that's one of the best ways to lose as the Soviet army. In my test games, it definitely defended Smolensk, but was willing to give up Riga and Minsk (though I typically have Minsk encircled before it can withdraw). Both Riga and Minsk are frankly lost causes. If they AI tried to fight for them more vigorously it would simply lose more forces without much effect.

Regards,

- Erik



dwesolick -> RE: Is the AI intentionally not defending Russian cities (12/17/2010 6:21:54 AM)

Well, this thread is somewhat reassuring, though I'm still a little worried about the Soviet AI in my campaign game. I'm on turn 3 and the Soviets seem to have utterly disappeared along the whole of AG North and Center fronts, except for some scattered routed units (I am playing with FOW of course, but the Russians still seem to have vanished). I captured Riga without a fight and will do the same with Minsk this turn. It seems the AI could have left at least a few rifle divs to man Riga and the major river line running south...would have slowed me up some at least. My fear is that this AI might have a suicide complex like that in Witp (and Witp AE). I can only play vs AI so this is a MAJOR concern for me. Certainly hope I'm wrong and that the AI is setting me up for a fall...mud hit in July (I'm playing with random weather) so that at least will slow me down a bit.

Forgot to mention, I'm playing on normal difficulty



PyleDriver -> RE: Is the AI intentionally not defending Russian cities (12/17/2010 6:38:33 AM)

I'm the bad guy here. I sent God only knows how many saves to Gary. I felt like I was playing him a times. Really, my first test I took Volodga in my first run. Won't happen now. The Axis AI didnt have the attenition that the Soviet AI got. Gary did a very good job on the Soviet AI for both 41 and 42...Thats all I tested, I have never played anything else...



vinnie71 -> RE: Is the AI intentionally not defending Russian cities (12/17/2010 8:48:59 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dwesolick

Well, this thread is somewhat reassuring, though I'm still a little worried about the Soviet AI in my campaign game. I'm on turn 3 and the Soviets seem to have utterly disappeared along the whole of AG North and Center fronts, except for some scattered routed units (I am playing with FOW of course, but the Russians still seem to have vanished). I captured Riga without a fight and will do the same with Minsk this turn. It seems the AI could have left at least a few rifle divs to man Riga and the major river line running south...would have slowed me up some at least. My fear is that this AI might have a suicide complex like that in Witp (and Witp AE). I can only play vs AI so this is a MAJOR concern for me. Certainly hope I'm wrong and that the AI is setting me up for a fall...mud hit in July (I'm playing with random weather) so that at least will slow me down a bit.

Forgot to mention, I'm playing on normal difficulty


I did the same thing. Now on turn 5 as my forces advance beyond Minsk, I'm starting to find Soviet forces near Smolensk. Recon hasn't determined as to the strength of the forces opposing me, but I failed to make a river crossing with my Panzers. My guess is that the AI is massing in the Smolensk-Gomel area. Finding its flanks would be difficult. Also the arrival of the infantry armies is slow, making the flanks vulnerable.

Same is happening down south. Now I've identified a few units trying to put up a line near Zhitomir

With FOW on its difficult to anticipate where it will make its stands.



randallw -> RE: Is the AI intentionally not defending Russian cities (12/17/2010 8:56:48 AM)

I'm playing the Soviet side against an Axis AI; the AI got to the Riga area on the 2nd turn but didn't occupy and garrison it.  It seems there are better goodies to the east than try a quick push towards Leningrad.



Tokugawa -> RE: Is the AI intentionally not defending Russian cities (12/17/2010 10:21:13 AM)

In my 1st experiences the Soviet army really defended Smolensk. I managed to conquer Minsk during the 2nd turn but when I aproached smolensk with a light courtine of motorized/Panzer Divisons the Red Army was expecting me with an impressive amount of forces.

The scenario was Operation Barbarossa playing Axis and and AI set to normal.



erigra -> RE: Is the AI intentionally not defending Russian cities (12/17/2010 10:44:05 AM)

I think the Ai should leave at least some units in every city, even Minsk and Riga.
The russian needs to withdraw forces in danger of being pocketed, and does so quite well now, but it also needs to slow down the advance whenever possible, and cities, being railcenters and excellent defensive terrain, is an obvious choice for this.



CarnageINC -> RE: Is the AI intentionally not defending Russian cities (12/17/2010 12:27:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: erigra

I think the Ai should leave at least some units in every city, even Minsk and Riga.
The russian needs to withdraw forces in danger of being pocketed, and does so quite well now, but it also needs to slow down the advance whenever possible, and cities, being railcenters and excellent defensive terrain, is an obvious choice for this.



I agree with Erigra, the Soviet AI should at least defend all major population centers with some sort of defense. After all its the citizens of the USSR and the pride of defending these positions that should matter the most.



dwesolick -> RE: Is the AI intentionally not defending Russian cities (12/17/2010 3:00:09 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: CarnageINC


quote:

ORIGINAL: erigra

I think the Ai should leave at least some units in every city, even Minsk and Riga.
The russian needs to withdraw forces in danger of being pocketed, and does so quite well now, but it also needs to slow down the advance whenever possible, and cities, being railcenters and excellent defensive terrain, is an obvious choice for this.



I agree with Erigra, the Soviet AI should at least defend all major population centers with some sort of defense. After all its the citizens of the USSR and the pride of defending these positions that should matter the most.


I also agree with the above. While it is good to hear that the Soviet AI will eventually make a stand, to simply abandon good defensive positions (and the major river line running south from Riga is a good position...at least for a turn or two) wholesale without leaving at least a rearguard is just poor play on the AI's part. God knows the Russians can afford to sacrifice some units in order to slow the panzers down, even if it means only gaining a week or two (which could be precious considering how little time/good weather the Germans have). Plus, (and this is important to me) it is grossly ahistorical for the AI armies to simply pull up stakes en mass. Stalin would have shot every one of those buggers! [:-] Yes, I know it's a game and the whole point is to achieve a different outcome, but still some reasonable hint of historical play on the AI's part would be nice.

Don't mean to sound bitchy, I love this game and hope to play it for many years....just hoping the AI will hold up its end.



Erik Rutins -> RE: Is the AI intentionally not defending Russian cities (12/17/2010 3:00:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dwesolick
Well, this thread is somewhat reassuring, though I'm still a little worried about the Soviet AI in my campaign game. I'm on turn 3 and the Soviets seem to have utterly disappeared along the whole of AG North and Center fronts, except for some scattered routed units (I am playing with FOW of course, but the Russians still seem to have vanished). I captured Riga without a fight and will do the same with Minsk this turn. It seems the AI could have left at least a few rifle divs to man Riga and the major river line running south...would have slowed me up some at least. My fear is that this AI might have a suicide complex like that in Witp (and Witp AE). I can only play vs AI so this is a MAJOR concern for me. Certainly hope I'm wrong and that the AI is setting me up for a fall...mud hit in July (I'm playing with random weather) so that at least will slow me down a bit.


That is WAY too early to worry about the AI. Keep playing, it will surprise you.

Regards,

- Erik



dwesolick -> RE: Is the AI intentionally not defending Russian cities (12/17/2010 3:04:40 PM)

Hi Erik,

Oh, I'm gonna keep playing...all the way to Gorki if necessary! Here's hoping the commie bastiges have laid a giant, cunning mousetrap for me.

thanks!



Erik Rutins -> RE: Is the AI intentionally not defending Russian cities (12/17/2010 3:05:37 PM)

There was not exactly a lot of fighting in Riga historically in 1941, the Germans pretty much marched in.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muDeAv0GHDE

Propaganda, sure, but really the city was mostly evacuated by the Soviets as the Germans approached.

Regards,

- Erik



Erik Rutins -> RE: Is the AI intentionally not defending Russian cities (12/17/2010 3:09:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dwesolick
I also agree with the above. While it is good to hear that the Soviet AI will eventually make a stand, to simply abandon good defensive positions (and the major river line running south from Riga is a good position...at least for a turn or two) wholesale without leaving at least a rearguard is just poor play on the AI's part. God knows the Russians can afford to sacrifice some units in order to slow the panzers down, even if it means only gaining a week or two (which could be precious considering how little time/good weather the Germans have). Plus, (and this is important to me) it is grossly ahistorical for the AI armies to simply pull up stakes en mass. Stalin would have shot every one of those buggers! [:-] Yes, I know it's a game and the whole point is to achieve a different outcome, but still some reasonable hint of historical play on the AI's part would be nice.


If you can point me to the historical account of the stout defense of the Daugava that the Soviet army put up right after Barbarossa, I would agree with you. As it is, the game portrays history pretty well based on my reading of the battles in Latvia during the initial Blitzkrieg.

If you say that in general the Soviet army should fight and die in place more and leave some covering forces in cities that are already fortified to slow down the Germans, I would agree, but overall I do not find the game to produce ahistorical results.

Regards,

- Erik



dwesolick -> RE: Is the AI intentionally not defending Russian cities (12/17/2010 3:10:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

There was not exactly a lot of fighting in Riga historically in 1941, the Germans pretty much marched in.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muDeAv0GHDE

Propaganda, sure, but really the city was mostly evacuated by the Soviets as the Germans approached.

Regards,

- Erik


Understood, but I was referring to the complete disappearance of Soviet units along the whole length of AG North & Center fronts....that's what had me really worried about the AI. Giving up a city or two is no big deal, I just was afraid that the AI might be surrendering too much too easily. Looking forward to finding out if I was wrong or not though!

thanks!



PyleDriver -> RE: Is the AI intentionally not defending Russian cities (12/17/2010 4:49:58 PM)

In the opening moves the AI tends to fall back. Get in the mid turns of summer, you'll wish they pulled out from some cities...



Redmarkus5 -> RE: Is the AI intentionally not defending Russian cities (12/17/2010 5:02:18 PM)

The AI appears to have a pre-programmed set of defensive Phase Lines, linked to hidden triggers (e.g. Axis take Hex X/Y and the AI automatically goes back to Phase Line 2, then it starts thinking on its own again and maybe moves forward a bit). It is also programmed to avoid being pocketed, which I personally think should only be turned on from 1942, given that more than half of Soviet 1941 losses were related to being pocketed.

I think that the retreats made in 1941 by the AI with this design are somewhat unrealistic, although I'm sure it will kick my Axis behind come late summer until I learn some gamey ways to make better pockets.

The Axis AI failing to take Riga has been reported before and is almost certainly a bug of some form, though I've been told it's not.

Is it a game or is it a simulation? That's the question...



Joel Billings -> RE: Is the AI intentionally not defending Russian cities (12/17/2010 8:14:35 PM)

I have to laugh a little at some of these posts. If you saw the kinds of pockets that our experienced playtesters can get in 1941 against the Soviet AI (at Challenging level), you wouldn't be asking for any code that would get even more Soviet AI units pocketed. Let's see what you say after you get some experience.



Joel Billings -> RE: Is the AI intentionally not defending Russian cities (12/17/2010 8:17:29 PM)

I also reject the idea of is this a game or a simulation. It's both. For me, first and foremost it is a game, but depending on your definition of simulation, it is that as well. I think it can be and is both.



PyleDriver -> RE: Is the AI intentionally not defending Russian cities (12/17/2010 8:33:38 PM)

Theres really no "gamey" way to beat the AI. I boils down to good organization and supply management. If you learn to do this well, then you can start having the Soviets lunch...Plus a good long term plan helps...



Redmarkus5 -> RE: Is the AI intentionally not defending Russian cities (12/17/2010 9:14:23 PM)


No doubt you are right - all I have been experiencing so far has been a slightly buggy first release, as evidenced by the Tech thread. However, it's good to see the fixes coming fast and furious.

As a new consumer of this product, it's impossible for me to tell where bugs end and design begins sometimes, so you'll have to be patient with me.

Which of these impressions of mine is false?

1. The AI appears to have a pre-programmed set of defensive Phase Lines.

2. These pre-programmed defensive Phase Lines are linked to hidden triggers.

3. It is also programmed to avoid being pocketed.

4. The Axis AI failing to take Riga is almost certainly a bug of some form.

The rest is subjective opinion - in my subjective opinion. As I say, once I have learned the game, I will possibly be able to do better.



Joel Billings -> RE: Is the AI intentionally not defending Russian cities (12/17/2010 9:27:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4


Which of these impressions of mine is false?

1. The AI appears to have a pre-programmed set of defensive Phase Lines.

I think true in some cases in some scenarios, but it doesn't have many of these that I'm aware of.

2. These pre-programmed defensive Phase Lines are linked to hidden triggers.

I think there are a few that are triggered, yes.

3. It is also programmed to avoid being pocketed.

Yes, it tries to avoid being pocketed except in certain key locations.

4. The Axis AI failing to take Riga is almost certainly a bug of some form.

Probably, because Gary will bypass some isolated units but said that ports should not be bypassed in the same way. Not 100% sure yet.





Redmarkus5 -> RE: Is the AI intentionally not defending Russian cities (12/17/2010 11:09:40 PM)

Cheers! I think that many of the observations or queries made about AI behaviour in this forum would be answered by those four points.



Redmarkus5 -> RE: Is the AI intentionally not defending Russian cities (12/17/2010 11:22:56 PM)

Game updated to latest patch. German AI vs. me as Soviets - turn 3.

I note that the Soviet units north of Leningrad now have zero MPs. This wasn't listed as a change as I recall, but is it a workaround to ensure that they won't run south before the Finns attack when commanded by the AI?

[image]local://upfiles/27287/ABAC6D370DC94FCAA21543898893FF55.jpg[/image]



Joel Billings -> RE: Is the AI intentionally not defending Russian cities (12/17/2010 11:33:58 PM)

Always been this way. Yes, north is frozen.



Redmarkus5 -> RE: Is the AI intentionally not defending Russian cities (12/17/2010 11:48:07 PM)

Erm.. On all of my games vs the Soviet AI, the Soviet forces have abandoned the north and moved south of Leningrad to beef up the defences there.

I don't have a good ss, but if you look at the top of the map here you can see them running. By turn 6 they are mostly gone from the north

[image]local://upfiles/27287/27E89B20972B433B921A38FAE21D2050.jpg[/image]



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