RE: Moving Airbases ??? (Full Version)

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Redmarkus5 -> RE: Moving Airbases ??? (12/18/2010 1:06:42 PM)

I think that moving airfields to any open or urban hex is fine - grass strips were common, as stated above and at 1 week turn levels this amount of abstraction makes sense. WiTP AE uses daily turns, for example, so more granularity is appropriate.

Some thoughts:

1. Mud and snow should reduce 'takeoff' operations (the % of aircraft in each unit that actually fly, as opposed to their ready strength) from non-urban locations dramatically (say 75%).
2. Basing on a small urban hex during mud/snow weather should result in, say, a 50% 'takeoff' reduction.
3. Basing on a heavy urban (city) should eliminate all such mud/snow effects, but not air combat weather effects, if any, obviously.
4. Air units should be moved via an Air Move screen (like the rail move screen) with the possible destination hexes that support air operations colour coded. A hot key should bring up a numeral over each hex (3 for city, 2 for small city, 1 for clear or light woods, 0 for woods etc.)



Rasputitsa -> RE: Moving Airbases ??? (12/18/2010 1:45:53 PM)

I can see the point about use of fixed airbases for the Germans retreating into their own territory, later in the war, but it's highly debatable how much of these fixed assets were left, after the attentions of the allied airforces. However, where are these equipped airbases and workshops in Russia, in 1941, one of the problems that the Soviets had, in the low serviceability of their tanks and aircraft, is that they had such poor maintenance facilities that the Germans probably would not have benefited from.

Are we trying to fix something that isn't broke, did not the Germans do just as the game portrays, advanced their air forces to temporary, tactical airstrips with field maintenance facilities moving in, as previous strips were abandoned. The effects of weather on air operations should already be covered in the game. [:)]



Helpless -> RE: Moving Airbases ??? (12/18/2010 1:52:34 PM)

quote:


Is there any special influence of blizzard turns of repair/fatigue reduction for air units? The manuel doesn't mention anything.

Also, while we are on the subject of Air Bases, is there any way to calculate the Support Squad needs of an air unit prior to moving it to an air base? This would be helpful to prevent overloading.


Blizzard (especially First Winter for Axis) has direct impact on support element fatigue. And fatigue has direct impact on the support capacity of the air base. Also air base support is used to support AA guns.

Example:
If you have an air base with 100% of support elements - 250. 20 is used to support AA. Aircraft support goes with 1:1 ratio - 250-20 - 230. So you can have 230 ready/damaged (reserve planes doesn't require support) planes stationed on the air base, without repair penalties.

If you have moved airbase and fatigue is 50, 250*.5 - 20 = 105 planes can be supported without penalty. During blizzards fatigue may increase quite a bit and this will have direct impact on the air base ability to support aircraft.



MechFO -> RE: Moving Airbases ??? (12/18/2010 2:06:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Helpless

Aircraft support goes with 1:1 ratio - 250-20 - 230. So you can have 230 ready/damaged (reserve planes doesn't require support) planes stationed on the air base, without repair penalties.



Does this mean that that Support Need of an air base should also reflect the number of ready + damaged aircraft, if there are no AA units present?

So 90+ bombers should have a Support need of about 90+?

I'm seeing widely divergent Support need values for Recon vs Fighters vs Bombers as the Axis in the 43-45 campaign.








Helpless -> RE: Moving Airbases ??? (12/18/2010 2:11:46 PM)

Afaik, current support values are calculated during the logistic phase. So it may not be shown correctly at the start of the scenario and after the number of aircraft has been changed, due to one or another reason. Need to check it.



TulliusDetritus -> RE: Moving Airbases ??? (12/18/2010 2:20:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: nukkxx

quote:

ORIGINAL: nukkxx


quote:



Most airfields in Russia were dirt or grass strips. They didn’t need large 8000-9000 foot concrete runways to operate most airframes like the US and British strategic bombers needed. So one week’s time is more than enough to carve out an airstrip capable of handling the airframes in question.

As is mentioned above it’s the base facilities that limit air operations. Mechanics, fuel depots, spare parts, base defense forces, etc. are the big issue when moving your air power from one place to another. And those facilities are represented by the air base counters. The planes assigned to the counters can be assumed to be spread out over many small airfields in its hex and perhaps some of the surrounding hexes, so that part is an abstraction.

Jim



No sorry. This is supposed to be deadly accurate game.


Ok ... ok ... I get your point. But this is certainly the most bizarre/unrealistic part of the game. Especially when considering the HUGE amount of MP of these structures !


Take a look at an atlas. The most important geographic thing in Europe is the European Plain. From southwest France... to the Urals. That´s huge. Flat places are good for airfields, I guess [8D]



Wild -> RE: Moving Airbases ??? (12/18/2010 2:21:43 PM)

The way airbases are used is accurate. Even a brief reading on the subject will show that.
I would say that one thing that might have to be examined is that perhaps aircraft should not be able to fly the same turn as the airbase is moved.



WilliePete -> RE: Moving Airbases ??? (12/18/2010 2:31:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: nukkxx

It still looks like very unrealistic to me .. sorry guys but that might be the poorest aspect of the game. A huge desapointment ...




They first would send an advance party scouting for a suitable area. Once found they would start prepping the field by clearing foreign objects "FOB" and once that was done planes could start coming in almost immediately. Most prop planes at that time had very robust landing gear designed in mind for less than agreeable strip conditions.

The difficult part of moving an airbase was the logistics of the operation (moving men and material), and not the planes and air strip itself. One week is plenty of time and realistic. The Luftwaffe more than anything else were masters of logistics and keeping things in order. If you think that it's still unrealistic then I'm pretty sure you never served in a military before. You have nothing to base your thinking on. Miracles happen on a daily bases during war time.



solops -> RE: Moving Airbases ??? (12/18/2010 2:44:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: nukkxx
What would be better ? Simply fixed airfields and moving support units. As in real life.


No. That is emphatically NOT like real life on the eastern front in the 1940. You really need to read up on this. The reality was that operationally in the field you flew from temporary grass strips, open fields, etc. If you wanted a concrete strip, you went back to Germany or found some old VVS strip.



nukkxx5058 -> RE: Moving Airbases ??? (12/18/2010 2:49:27 PM)

ok then ... 



MechFO -> RE: Moving Airbases ??? (12/18/2010 4:16:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Helpless

Afaik, current support values are calculated during the logistic phase. So it may not be shown correctly at the start of the scenario and after the number of aircraft has been changed, due to one or another reason. Need to check it.


The differences still persist after the first turn.

Do you want some screenshots?



Helpless -> RE: Moving Airbases ??? (12/18/2010 7:57:39 PM)

quote:


The differences still persist after the first turn.


I think I see what you mean. No need for SS. Thanks.



PyleDriver -> RE: Moving Airbases ??? (12/18/2010 8:24:50 PM)

Lmao... You got Pavel stured. Trust me you will never beat this guy in a battle of wits...Me' on this thread I don't care. I let the AI handle air stuff. Wheres Ron when you need him for these posts...I just go for the gold, Moscow, really guys you need Lenigrad also, it opens so much...



Tzar007 -> RE: Moving Airbases ??? (12/18/2010 8:41:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: nukkxx

It still looks like very unrealistic to me .. sorry guys but that might be the poorest aspect of the game. A huge desapointment ...


It looked like that for me too at first glance. But our modern world has distorted our view of what flying airplanes entails: today we have those structures called airports with terminals, concrete illuminated runways, huge maintenance hangars. So we have a hard time believing that during WWII, Germans and Russians were basically flying out of nothing. Airfields on the Eastern Front were nothing at all: just planes parked in the field on the grass near each other, possibly a dozen of supply trucks with spare parts, and a couple of fuel trucks. Often there was no structures at all. No tower control, no HQ, nothing. And the airstrip was not made of concrete or asphalt. It was just the ground, bulldozed on a regular basis so that it could be as flat as possible through rain and snow. It was up to the pilot to lift and land safely. The planes were pretty rugged at that time, a F-15 pilot would be horrified nowadays learning he's going to have to land on the grass...

So it's really not a big deal moving around airfields of that sort. You get the trucks moving to the next spot where you will have your new airstrip, bulldoze the ground and then call the planes at the old spot to get airborne and land at the new place.

That's it.

So at the strategic level of the game, I think the airbase model works as it should. Don't forget that when you move your airbases, you will be penalized by being able to fly much less less miles with your planes on that turn to account for the time the airbase trucks are spending plowing through the Russian roads and the planes waiting for them to arrive. Seems realistic enough.




alfonso -> RE: Moving Airbases ??? (12/19/2010 1:18:49 AM)

Nukkxx

Take a look at this...

[image]local://upfiles/4579/66BA28C1CC2C4B6C9AEAB6EBCBD8BDCF.jpg[/image]



randallw -> RE: Moving Airbases ??? (12/19/2010 8:17:45 AM)

I believe in the German planning for the war they estimated that the Soviets had over one thousand airstrips, with something like 150 or so being reasonable quality, and the rest being crude.

I'm not sure if bad weather hurts readiness for planes ( in the game ), but the manual does say that it can cause missions to be aborted.



nukkxx5058 -> RE: Moving Airbases ??? (12/19/2010 9:03:27 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: alfonso

Nukkxx

Take a look at this...

[image]local://upfiles/4579/66BA28C1CC2C4B6C9AEAB6EBCBD8BDCF.jpg[/image]


Thank you all for educating me ! After a little bit of thinking and thanks to the picture posted by alfonso, it starts to make sense now. It's a big relief because the game is great and I would have been very disapointed if such a mistake was committed.

So thank you very much indeed. WITE is great (on of the best in matrixgames' history IMO)and thanks to you I will continue to enjoy it ! Just starting a GC with Axis :-)



CarnageINC -> RE: Moving Airbases ??? (12/19/2010 9:53:09 AM)

Wrong post



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