RE: Probably gonna stir up a hornets nest... (Full Version)

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aknaton -> RE: Probably gonna stir up a hornets nest... (12/19/2010 8:07:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Templer

When I saw first screens a few months ago of Gary Grigsby's War in the East I was immediately in love. Especially with the UI!
For me, the UI is clear, concise and visually structured. Perhaps a bit cold and impersonal - but I like it that way (so I also like the UI of Command Ops: Battles from the Bulge).



I must agree with Templer on this one. This is the first computer wargame *ever* that I played where the UI felt intuitive and easy to use. I could start palying right away and have fun. The details and the nifty stuff I can delve into as I go along (and read the manual).

What I would have liked though, is that the pdf-manual was more layouted for A4 or letter format of paper and not the "game manual size". I would have been much simplier to print then.

/h



henri51 -> RE: Probably gonna stir up a hornets nest... (12/19/2010 8:35:00 PM)

quote:

Agree and ComradeP mentioned this is being worked on, but for benefit of devs if they read this I want to describe what I find the current process to be and why it's cumbersome. One of the frustrating things I think is the delay in the CR screen functionality. So let's say I want to clear support units out of all rear area Army HQ. Assume I have CR set to show armies on the HQ page.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that a unit can use ANY support unit in ANY of its superior HQs, so I don't see why you would have to clear all support units from HQs in the rear because supposedly they cannot be used - they CAN be used.

As for having to click back and forth between the CR screen and the map to find out where a unit is, hey, they coordinates of the unit are indicated in the column right next to the unit name, so just looking at the coordinates tells you exactly where the unit is, or if you are not very good at visualizing coordinates ("...lemme see, is 150 bigger than 100 and by how much?...")the numbers gives a pretty good idea.

I agree that some parts of the UI could be improved and that some spects take some degree of getting used to, but hey, where were you guys when HOI3 came out with a plethora of bugs that made the game totally unplayable, and complainers were shot down by the fanboys who claimed that the game would be playable in a few years when the player community had modded it enough to make it playable?

I also agree that part of the problem is the manual, where critical information is sometimes dispersed and hard to find.

Henri



Redmarkus5 -> RE: Probably gonna stir up a hornets nest... (12/19/2010 8:36:00 PM)

There's no perfect system, I agree, but the current default is more annoying than the alternatives, IMO. The approach above is pretty standard.



ComradeP -> RE: Probably gonna stir up a hornets nest... (12/19/2010 8:52:42 PM)

quote:

so I don't see why you would have to clear all support units from HQs in the rear because supposedly they cannot be used - they CAN be used.


Having support units in rear area HQ's is in many cases essentially a waste of support units, as they won't contribute much to the war effort when they're hundreds of miles away from the front.



DBeves -> RE: Probably gonna stir up a hornets nest... (12/19/2010 8:58:08 PM)

I agree with everything the op said - but I am inclined to think its not the end of the world and the UI can be got around.

One thing I am a long way from falling in love with at this stage is the air system.

Two things REALLY bother me about this -
1. no control over ground support ... Why? Why ? Why ? you can control every other mission - but we have to rely on a somewhat eccentric AI for this. I just dont understand that decision and its really affacting my enjoyment of the game when there is so much to like I sincereley hope this can change.
2. the simple fact that one mispalced right click wihtout the shift button pressed can result in half your air force not being able to fly ground attack missions. Again - I am baffled by this - you would have to work hard to make it this difficult in my opinion.

Last but not a showstopper is yes - why are all units automatically selected when you click a hex - not a single wargame I have played ever did this and I cant think of a single good reason for this being the default.

I love this game and accept its a monster and a UI might be difficult - but some of these decisions around the air war just leave me completelry non plussed



Wild -> RE: Probably gonna stir up a hornets nest... (12/19/2010 9:08:52 PM)

I absolutely love this game.
I have to say i agree with the OP's comments concerning the UI and the Airwar though.




Adam Parker -> RE: Probably gonna stir up a hornets nest... (12/19/2010 9:10:39 PM)

Just my quick .02. I'm in the Middle of the Minsk scenario right now and easily winning on Normal setting, without yet reading 1 page of rules or tutorial. The best tip re doing things came here in the form of one sentence: "Shift + click to create multi-hex attacks".

Once known, I've just been Shift-clicking, moving and encircling pockets and watching the Soviet AI self-destruct.

What I would benefit from though, is a 3-4 page how to guide: "How do I do this? You do that", type of thing. If they could summarise what needs to be done each turn and what can be done each turn and then quickly show me what to click, then this game will be a real winner on my PC. At the end of that, refer me to another guide for a "how to delve deeper" experience.



henri51 -> RE: Probably gonna stir up a hornets nest... (12/19/2010 9:35:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

quote:

so I don't see why you would have to clear all support units from HQs in the rear because supposedly they cannot be used - they CAN be used.


Having support units in rear area HQ's is in many cases essentially a waste of support units, as they won't contribute much to the war effort when they're hundreds of miles away from the front.


I thought I had read that a combat unit can get support from support units in ANY of the HQs in its superior HQ chain independently of distance (assuming that all HQs in the chain satisfies normal distance requirements). Am I wrong? If so, does it mean that a combat unit can get (automatic) support unit help from units already in its Corps HQ before the attack?

Henri



ComradeP -> RE: Probably gonna stir up a hornets nest... (12/19/2010 9:44:16 PM)

There's a 5 hex limit:

quote:

Construction and labor support units are used to assist in the building of hex fortification levels and the repair of rail lines. All other support units are used to assist combat units in battle, either from an eligible headquarters unit not more than five hexes away from the battle, or from being directly attached to a combat unit participating in the battle (15.4).



jjdenver -> RE: Probably gonna stir up a hornets nest... (12/19/2010 9:57:27 PM)

ComradeP. Does this mean it's almost never worthwhile to leave any combat support units in Front/Army Group or High Command HQ's since they are rarely (I assume) within 5 hexes of any battle?

Also a completely unrelated followup question from another thread entirely: Do you normally disband AA battalions or just sapper battalions as SU?

And last another unrelated question that I know this is somewhere in rules but I can't seem to find it. If you have damaged planes in an air base unit and that air base unit moves several hexes voluntarily using movement points, are the damaged planes destroyed?



ComradeP -> RE: Probably gonna stir up a hornets nest... (12/19/2010 10:10:07 PM)

Keeping combat support units in higher than corps (Axis) or army (Soviet) level HQ's more or less wastes their potential. They are made to be either directly attached to units, or assigned to the lowest level HQ.

I disband AA battalions too as the Soviets, except for those in cities as I'd have to buy those out.

Damaged planes should only be destroyed by displacement, not by on-map or off-map (moving to the national reserve) moves as far as I know.



jjdenver -> RE: Probably gonna stir up a hornets nest... (12/19/2010 10:21:03 PM)

Good info. Sorry to keep beating on this one - but one last clarification - sapper/RR construction units - can they help units dig in only within 5 hexes of the physical HQ location? Thus it doesn't make too much sense to keep allow them at Front/ArmyGroup/High Command level similar to combat units?



Rosseau -> RE: Probably gonna stir up a hornets nest... (12/19/2010 10:26:20 PM)

For me is the "shift" mouseover for deliberate attacks. In a way, it's brilliant. But I find often the attack won't go through and I don't know why and have to de-select and start all over? I still love the game, but very helpful discussion here.



ComradeP -> RE: Probably gonna stir up a hornets nest... (12/19/2010 10:32:09 PM)

Sapper/pioneer units are combat units, so they shouldn't be in higher HQ's. The construction units you place in higher than army HQ's are essentially long range rail repair units as they have a large radius of operation, namely the same radius as the HQ (both sides)/rear area post-partisan attack repair units (Axis only).



Fred98 -> RE: Probably gonna stir up a hornets nest... (12/19/2010 10:42:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: squatter
What this all adds up to for me is a feeling of:

"sheesh, after a day's play I'm pretty sure I'll never get to play an entire campaign from 41 to 45, which is after all what I bought this game for."



I have addressed this before and will follow the same approach as I have in other games:

Play 1 or 2 of the shortest scenarios by PBEM – ask questions

A patch is released – install the patch.

Play one or both of the above again by PBEM ( because the patch will have had an effect on the scenario)

Play another 2 of the slightly longer scenarios by PBEM

Play one of the medium length scenarios by PBEM – ask questions

A patch is released – install the patch.

Play one of the above again by PBEM ( because the patch will have had an effect on that scenario)

Play 1 or 2 of the medium / long scenarios PBEM ( my problem will be that players will only want to play the shortest scenario or the full campaign)

Possible another patch – and play 1 or more scenarios over again.

By the time that is completed the game will have been out for 18 months / 2 years. I will now be ready to play the full campaign PBEM. At 200 turns will take 500 days. Anybody for a game?



jjdenver -> RE: Probably gonna stir up a hornets nest... (12/19/2010 10:46:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP
Sapper/pioneer units are combat units, so they shouldn't be in higher HQ's. The construction units you place in higher than army HQ's are essentially long range rail repair units as they have a large radius of operation, namely the same radius as the HQ (both sides)/rear area post-partisan attack repair units (Axis only).


I was specifically digging for info about the units that help build fortification level. How about those?



Gandalf -> RE: Probably gonna stir up a hornets nest... (12/19/2010 11:02:09 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DBeves
<snip>

Last but not a showstopper is yes - why are all units automatically selected when you click a hex - not a single wargame I have played ever did this and I cant think of a single good reason for this being the default.

<snip>


There is one single good reason... To reduce the incidents of noob mistake #1. [:D]



jomni -> RE: Probably gonna stir up a hornets nest... (12/19/2010 11:02:46 PM)

Horrible UI eh?
But if you compare it with other monster games like the old War in Russia, War in the Pacific, and The Operational Art of War... the UI of WITE is brilliant and makes playing the war more manageable. The number of clicks is really reduced (because of the automatic selection of all units in the hex).



ComradeP -> RE: Probably gonna stir up a hornets nest... (12/19/2010 11:08:43 PM)

quote:

I was specifically digging for info about the units that help build fortification level. How about those?


Like I said: it would be unwise to place combat units or support combat units in higher than army level HQ's because they're needed at the front. The support units assisting with fort construction should be in a HQ within 5 hexes of the division belonging to that HQ that you want them to help. As such, placing them in rear area HQ's is kind of pointless as the main combat unit type in those is the security division and they can't dig in beyond fort level 1.



squatter -> RE: Probably gonna stir up a hornets nest... (12/19/2010 11:22:18 PM)


Noob mistake #1 is actually another good example of bad design: When attempting to move a combat unit stacked with an HQ that is next to an enemy unit and thus will be displaced if the combat unit moves should provoke a dialogue: "HQ will be displaced, are you sure you want to move this unit?" It's noob design mistake #1 really. Sorry Gary.

Can I also raise how baffled I am about the kind of hidden sequence of play there is in the air engine. Am I right in thinking that if I recon/bomb airfield/bomb unit in the wrong order then I will lose the opportunity to do one or other action? If so, why is there simply not an over sequence of play built in to the engine so we know where we stand?




ComradeP -> RE: Probably gonna stir up a hornets nest... (12/19/2010 11:33:21 PM)

quote:

Noob mistake #1 is actually another good example of bad design: When attempting to move a combat unit stacked with an HQ that is next to an enemy unit and thus will be displaced if the combat unit moves should provoke a dialogue: "HQ will be displaced, are you sure you want to move this unit?" It's noob design mistake #1 really. Sorry Gary.


A pop-up that would appear every time you'd move a combat unit from a hex with a HQ would be rather annoying. Considering that you can clearly see whether there are any non-combat units in a stack that might be displaced after a combat unit moves out, I don't really see the problem. Also: if you're talking about improving the UI, adding pop-ups alerting you whenever you're about to move a combat unit from a hex with non-combat units are not really a good idea.

As to the air missions: aside from certain transport missions and bomb unit missions, air missions can be flown with a mileage remaining smaller than 100%/more than 0% used.



squatter -> RE: Probably gonna stir up a hornets nest... (12/19/2010 11:38:42 PM)

I obviously didnt express myself clearly. I'm talking a pop-up in the rare but vitally important instance that if you do actually move the unit you are about to move, then the HQ left behind will be displaced because it is next to an enemy unit. This can happen to a noob, or a tired expert at 2am. And if it happened at a crucial time during turn 220 in a PBEM grand campaign, thus ruining your grand offensive, you'd be pretty peeved.



DBeves -> RE: Probably gonna stir up a hornets nest... (12/19/2010 11:43:18 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

quote:

Noob mistake #1 is actually another good example of bad design: When attempting to move a combat unit stacked with an HQ that is next to an enemy unit and thus will be displaced if the combat unit moves should provoke a dialogue: "HQ will be displaced, are you sure you want to move this unit?" It's noob design mistake #1 really. Sorry Gary.


A pop-up that would appear every time you'd move a combat unit from a hex with a HQ would be rather annoying. Considering that you can clearly see whether there are any non-combat units in a stack that might be displaced after a combat unit moves out, I don't really see the problem. Also: if you're talking about improving the UI, adding pop-ups alerting you whenever you're about to move a combat unit from a hex with non-combat units are not really a good idea.

As to the air missions: aside from certain transport missions and bomb unit missions, air missions can be flown with a mileage remaining smaller than 100%/more than 0% used.


Well - thats kind of a strange way of looking at things - since because of this issue my general rule is to deselect everything in a hex once I clicked on it - thats a whole lot more annoying than a pop up that warns me - and in general - given the rules - how many times in a game is a HQ actually next to an enemy unit ? Infinitely les I would have thought than my need not to move all units in a hex to the same place. In essence all that happened is a great annoyance has moved into the game which doesnt solve the problem its supposed to. Seriously - if I leave an HQ in a hex on its own next to an enemy unit thats my problem. I can t remember if the rule is it displaces the instant it is in the hex on its own - but then the rule is the problem - why not leave that till end of turn.



ComradeP -> RE: Probably gonna stir up a hornets nest... (12/19/2010 11:46:09 PM)

Keep in mind that it's not just HQ's that can be dislocated by an enemy unit. Air bases, depleted or routed combat units, FBD/NKPS units and on-map automated construction battalions also dislocate when an enemy combat unit moves next to them.

We've had a short debate about adding such a pop-up on the tester forum and the general consensus was that it would be too much like babysitting the player. A HQ dislocating at a critical time is no less annoying than discovering that the tip of your spearhead will withdraw next turn, that you missed a rail hex along a line with a FBD/NKPS unit or suddenly noticing that your flank is wide open the second after you've clicked on end turn. Human error's also a part of the game.

DBeves: I don't think I understand what you're trying to say. What annoyance and what problem? You're talking about a number of things, so I'm not sure what you're referring to.



squatter -> RE: Probably gonna stir up a hornets nest... (12/19/2010 11:48:17 PM)

It happens instantly. That's the problem.



DBeves -> RE: Probably gonna stir up a hornets nest... (12/20/2010 12:13:56 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

Keep in mind that it's not just HQ's that can be dislocated by an enemy unit. Air bases, depleted or routed combat units, FBD/NKPS units and on-map automated construction battalions also dislocate when an enemy combat unit moves next to them.

We've had a short debate about adding such a pop-up on the tester forum and the general consensus was that it would be too much like babysitting the player. A HQ dislocating at a critical time is no less annoying than discovering that the tip of your spearhead will withdraw next turn, that you missed a rail hex along a line with a FBD/NKPS unit or suddenly noticing that your flank is wide open the second after you've clicked on end turn. Human error's also a part of the game.

DBeves: I don't think I understand what you're trying to say. What annoyance and what problem? You're talking about a number of things, so I'm not sure what you're referring to.


I am talking about the annoyance of having all units in a hex selected when you select the hex - then having to deselect them. I must say I find your answer a bit puzzling - as I believe you said earlier it was coded to do this specifically as an aid to the player to avoid noob mistake one - ie his HQ displacing - how is that not baby sitting a player where as a pop up is ?



ComradeP -> RE: Probably gonna stir up a hornets nest... (12/20/2010 12:17:15 AM)

I don't recall saying anything like that, not in those words in any case.



Sheytan -> RE: Probably gonna stir up a hornets nest... (12/20/2010 12:24:46 AM)

I second that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: comsolut

Actually, I believe these are some very good observations. Many of the issues I have just accepted and work around because of the enjoyment factor.

Possibly some of your ideas can still be worked into the game, but I, for one, appreciate the comments you have posted.




DBeves -> RE: Probably gonna stir up a hornets nest... (12/20/2010 12:26:01 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

I don't recall saying anything like that, not in those words in any case.

quote:

incidents of noob mistake #1.


Sincere apologies Comrade I read back and it wasnt you ...



ComradeP -> RE: Probably gonna stir up a hornets nest... (12/20/2010 12:28:46 AM)

No problem, it's easy to mix up statements when a large number of comments are being made in a short amount of time.



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