Totenkopf SS Division (Full Version)

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Titanwarrior89 -> Totenkopf SS Division (12/25/2010 2:22:37 AM)

What does- Totenkopf-mean?



Mifune -> RE: Totenkopf SS Division (12/25/2010 2:23:12 AM)

Deaths Head



Adam Parker -> RE: Totenkopf SS Division (12/25/2010 2:38:54 AM)

Identifiable by their wearing the deaths head on their lapels rather than SS runes.

The unit also provided the guard manpower for the Concentration Camps.



Titanwarrior89 -> RE: Totenkopf SS Division (12/25/2010 2:48:30 AM)

Thanks guys.[:)]



turska -> RE: Totenkopf SS Division (12/25/2010 6:18:48 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Adam Parker

Identifiable by their wearing the deaths head on their lapels rather than SS runes.

The unit also provided the guard manpower for the Concentration Camps.


I think it was so that Totenkopf division was formed from SS-Totenkopfverbände wich provided manpower to concentration camps. Also wounded men from the division were used as a camp guards for lighter duty until recovered for front line duty.



kfmiller41 -> RE: Totenkopf SS Division (12/25/2010 8:20:28 AM)

Now there is a light duty assignment you don't see every day[:-]



hgilmer3 -> RE: Totenkopf SS Division (12/25/2010 2:21:29 PM)

Does anyone have a picture of one of them in their uniform?  Would like to see how it looked.



Terminus -> RE: Totenkopf SS Division (12/25/2010 3:16:03 PM)

Nothing different about their uniforms from other Waffen SS units, aside from the death's head replacing the SS runes:


[image]local://upfiles/16369/34BECEA9DE044D4AB4F3DC22AC064D6A.jpg[/image]



Titanwarrior89 -> RE: Totenkopf SS Division (12/25/2010 3:31:44 PM)

What is the breast plate on the soldier to the top left?
quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Nothing different about their uniforms from other Waffen SS units, aside from the death's head replacing the SS runes:


[image]local://upfiles/16369/34BECEA9DE044D4AB4F3DC22AC064D6A.jpg[/image]




Montbrun -> RE: Totenkopf SS Division (12/25/2010 3:40:43 PM)

Feldgendarmerie - Military Police - also known as "Chained Dogs" because of the gorget that they wear.



Cerion -> RE: Totenkopf SS Division (12/25/2010 3:41:13 PM)


Is from the Feldgendarmerie (Military Police).



Titanwarrior89 -> RE: Totenkopf SS Division (12/25/2010 3:50:30 PM)

Ive spent most of my gaming time over the years with the Pacific-Civilwar-Scifi. I am going to have to get on line and study the german military rank structure.



hgilmer3 -> RE: Totenkopf SS Division (12/25/2010 5:22:38 PM)

This is a great informative thread. Thanks.



raizer -> RE: Totenkopf SS Division (12/25/2010 7:04:18 PM)

Well totenkoph was formed from men that worked the camps.  Its first commander, pappa Eicke (the guy who put a bullet in Ersnts Rohms head) was the original commander at Dachau and later  became the inspector of the entire camp system....so other big wigs in the SS were forming waffen units-Das Riech and LAH were formed up prior to Totenkoph and Toten's noobness showed in France.  They were average at best...in fact there are numerous reports of them refusing to fight, cowering to french/brit fire.  In any case they were terribly ill trained at first,  below average troops who were an undisciplined lot.  Totenkoph was responsible for 2 massacres of british soldiers who surrendered after running out of ammo.  The brits inflicted heavy causalities and after they gave up, Totenkoph lined them up against the farm walls and Mg'd 200 of them.  After the war the regimental commander was hung by the brits.  So dont let anyone try to tell you that the Eastern front was responsible for hardening the Waffen SS...they were committing atrocities in France '40.

Now Eicke realized he was embarrassing the SS and had to get his troops some real combat leaders- so by the time the Russian War rolled around, Totenkoph was well trained, well equipped and very well led-made all the difference because it became a true fire brigade-brutal, tireless and a real force multiplier...



Smirfy -> RE: Totenkopf SS Division (12/25/2010 7:12:16 PM)


Soldiers of Destruction: The SS Death's Head Division, 1933-1945 by Charles W. Sydnor

Title is a bit misleading as it is nowhere near as detailed after Eicke's death in 43 as before but still a good read.



Puhis -> RE: Totenkopf SS Division (12/25/2010 7:23:19 PM)

All that reminds me of this Mitchell & Webb sketch. They are SS soldiers wondering "why skulls???"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEle_DLDg9Y



Terminus -> RE: Totenkopf SS Division (12/25/2010 7:26:14 PM)

"Are we the baddies?"[:D][:D][:D]



notenome -> RE: Totenkopf SS Division (12/26/2010 12:32:24 AM)

The only atrocity I know of Das Reich comiting in France is in 44, the destruction of the village during a partisan hunting operation. As far as I know, the only Waffen-SS unit to commit atrocities in 40 was Totenkopf. As for Tontenkopf's performance, they suposedly fought fanatically, suffered incredibly heavy losses, but that is in great part due to them running headlong into Allied tanks that were impervious to their AT weapons (they improvised and used artillery in a direct fire role, foreshadowing what was to come on the eastern front). They did take 16k prisoners at Cambrai, and by the time of the French surrender they had reached the Spanish border, which is fairly impressive. As for panicking, I don't know of a single combat formation that doesn't have reports of soldiers and officers panicking, especially when the division is green. Just part of the deal.



Walloc -> RE: Totenkopf SS Division (12/26/2010 9:39:42 AM)

Just for infomations sake the skulls thing isnt some thing that was "invented" by the SS.

It has been used since Frederick the Great in the prussian military. Most famously by the "deathhead hussars". Also other nations has used it among poles in 1920s and baltic states.

More info on

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Totenkopf

Kind regards,

Rasmus



Terminus -> RE: Totenkopf SS Division (12/26/2010 9:49:13 AM)

Well, duh.



Walloc -> RE: Totenkopf SS Division (12/26/2010 9:50:28 AM)

Termi needs a hug.

/hug Termi

Hope it helps,

Rasmus



Smirfy -> RE: Totenkopf SS Division (12/26/2010 10:14:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: notenome

The only atrocity I know of Das Reich comiting in France is in 44, the destruction of the village during a partisan hunting operation. As far as I know, the only Waffen-SS unit to commit atrocities in 40 was Totenkopf. As for Tontenkopf's performance, they suposedly fought fanatically, suffered incredibly heavy losses, but that is in great part due to them running headlong into Allied tanks that were impervious to their AT weapons (they improvised and used artillery in a direct fire role, foreshadowing what was to come on the eastern front). They did take 16k prisoners at Cambrai, and by the time of the French surrender they had reached the Spanish border, which is fairly impressive. As for panicking, I don't know of a single combat formation that doesn't have reports of soldiers and officers panicking, especially when the division is green. Just part of the deal.


Nope the SS commited atocities from the get go LSAH murdered British troops at Wormhout 1940
.



PDiFolco -> RE: Totenkopf SS Division (12/26/2010 10:38:48 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: notenome

The only atrocity I know of Das Reich comiting in France is in 44, the destruction of the village during a partisan hunting operation. As far as I know, the only Waffen-SS unit to commit atrocities in 40 was Totenkopf. As for Tontenkopf's performance, they suposedly fought fanatically, suffered incredibly heavy losses, but that is in great part due to them running headlong into Allied tanks that were impervious to their AT weapons (they improvised and used artillery in a direct fire role, foreshadowing what was to come on the eastern front). They did take 16k prisoners at Cambrai, and by the time of the French surrender they had reached the Spanish border, which is fairly impressive. As for panicking, I don't know of a single combat formation that doesn't have reports of soldiers and officers panicking, especially when the division is green. Just part of the deal.

DR not only massacred a whole French village, they also repeatedly killed civvies in France. And this village (Oradour) was destroyed just out of death lust, the DR was getting to the front... Read D Day by Beevor.
Overall SS units were routinely guilty of war crimes, in the West too, even if they were no Einsatzgruppen there...



bairdlander2 -> RE: Totenkopf SS Division (12/26/2010 1:21:19 PM)

Here is an interesting shirt,they dont sell the previous one anymore which was pretty much the Deathhead skull

[image]local://upfiles/31566/3DE3D12961574963AC8392FE40CCCF2F.jpg[/image]



Rasputitsa -> RE: Totenkopf SS Division (12/26/2010 1:29:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: notenome
The only atrocity I know of Das Reich comiting in France is in 44, the destruction of the village during a partisan hunting operation.


It was not just the destruction of a village, it was the murder of everyone in, or visiting (including the school children), the village. Herding women and children into a church and setting fire to it, shooting people as they tried to escape the flames. However 'murderous' partisan hunting can be, this was something else.



notenome -> RE: Totenkopf SS Division (12/26/2010 2:59:43 PM)

I seem to have been misunderstood, when I said the destruction of a village, I didn't mean only the physical destruction. I simply didn't want to give a vivid acount as I find people are very over eager to post long gory descriptions and personally I find this disrespectful to the victims (I mean no insult to any poster by this). The massacre of 642 civilians at Oradour was defended by Diekmann as retaliation for the death and mutilation of 40 German soldiers by the Marquis. Diekman's orders had been to take the mayor and 30 hostages in order to exchange them for a captured Das Reich officer. That said Diekmann's interpretation of 'anti-partisan operations' seemed to be a step too far even for the German authorities who wanted to persecute him for Oradour (amongst these was Rommel, the Vichy government, Diekmann's own superior Stadler and several others). An investigation was begun but Diekman died in combat before it concluded, and of course there is no guarantee that any measures would have been taken given the bizantine relation of Waffen-SS men and units with regular army authorities.

Whilst I certaintly agree that what occured at Oradour was a massacre and a war crime, the murder of civilians was unfortunately regarded as a part of anti-partisan activities by the Axis during World War II. One needs only look at Yugoslavia where the diferent ocupying countries established different rules for civilians death. The Germans determined that for every German soldier killed 20 civilians would die. The Italians determined that for every Italian soldier killed, 100 civilians would die.

All of that being said, we seemed to have derailed this thread.



Rasputitsa -> RE: Totenkopf SS Division (12/26/2010 3:16:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: notenome
All of that being said, we seemed to have derailed this thread.


No criticism of your post intended, just a desire to ensure that the history of that period should not be forgotten. This in no way affects our enjoyment of the game and thanks to the way history worked out, to us it is a game, long may it stay that way. [:)]

Back on the tracks.



dwesolick -> RE: Totenkopf SS Division (12/26/2010 3:33:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Puhis

All that reminds me of this Mitchell & Webb sketch. They are SS soldiers wondering "why skulls???"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEle_DLDg9Y



That is a hilarious video! This one is pretty good too...Heil Doenitz!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHnyQXyuTGY&feature=related



turska -> RE: Totenkopf SS Division (12/26/2010 5:28:58 PM)

Pretty good overall books about how the 1st & 2nd SS Corps'es did in battle are from Michael Reynolds:
Steel Inferno: I Panzer Corps in Normandy
Men of Steel: 1st SS Panzer Corps, 1944-45 - The Ardennes and Eastern Front
Sons of the Reich: The History of II SS Panzer Corps
And also
The Devil's Adjutant: Jochen Peiper, Panzer Leader

(Also the war crimes are covered in those)



Speedysteve -> RE: Totenkopf SS Division (12/26/2010 6:41:31 PM)

I also think they're a fine set of books by Reynolds.



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