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Sardaukar -> RE: Totenkopf SS Division (12/26/2010 9:46:16 PM)

Also, as minor trivia, when Totenkopf surrendered to US forces, personnel of Totenkopf SS Division was transferred to gentle hands of Soviets (since they fought from 1941 on exclusively on Eastern Front). One can imagine their fate, not that I feel any excessive pity towards them... Divisions like LAH & Das Reich, OTOH were able to surrender to Western Allies and were not deported to Soviet Union.




raizer -> RE: Totenkopf SS Division (12/26/2010 10:35:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

Also, as minor trivia, when Totenkopf surrendered to US forces, personnel of Totenkopf SS Division was transferred to gentle hands of Soviets (since they fought from 1941 on exclusively on Eastern Front). One can imagine their fate, not that I feel any excessive pity towards them... Divisions like LAH & Das Reich, OTOH were able to surrender to Western Allies and were not deported to Soviet Union.

not totally true...SS Haupststurmfuher Fritz Knochlein (commander of 3rd Kompanie that machine gunned a 100 brits from the Royal Norfolk Regiment outside of La Paradis) was hung by the brits in 1949




Titanwarrior89 -> RE: Totenkopf SS Division (12/26/2010 10:41:20 PM)

How were the men for the Totenkopf SS Division selected for the unit?




Adam Parker -> RE: Totenkopf SS Division (12/26/2010 10:50:37 PM)

And for Titan, here's the prime books on the 3rd SS (there are others but imo not as inclusive as these):

1. Soldiers of Desruction - as already mentioned here, the most scholarly coverage of the unit with a no holds barred expose of its operations.

2. Like a Cliff in the Ocean - a darned expensive "autobiography" of the unit, heavily supported by gloss pictorials, color situational maps, OOB's and eye-witness action reports throughout. It's a large-sized tome of quality gloss paper stock. This is a Fedorowicz publication and may soon be out of print, hence the cost - but it is a quality publication.

Being an autobiography of the unit though, it is heavy on the "apologetsia" - a desire to paint the unit with an honorable legacy. To this end, the introduction writes; that in addition to wishing to furnish an accurate combat history of the unit:

"This work is not an attempt at justification... We also trust that history will show more justice to the Waffen-SS".

It then goes on to explain that widows of the unit, should not need to feel the urge to take pictures of their husbands off the wall when their grandchildren visit. This is then followed by a lengthy discussion of how many other units in history, have worn the death's head into battle.

Any discussion of the SS is bound bring passionate debate. Here so far, things have been of the scholastic-curious type which I love. Nonetheless, when talking about any single Waffen-SS unit, the 3rd Totenkopf is bound to bring up controversy and as well, imo it should.

Below is a highly reduced pic from "Like a Cliff in the Ocean". If you can afford it and keep a library on military units, I highly recommend this book - but it's best viewed in balance with a resource such as Sydnor's.


[image]local://upfiles/6105/013B762AC8264CCC8C71AE0A0BF575AB.jpg[/image]




bairdlander2 -> RE: Totenkopf SS Division (12/26/2010 11:13:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Titanwarrior89

How were the men for the Totenkopf SS Division selected for the unit?

Most likely from prisons and mental institutions[:D]Seriously though it is interesting an American from Kentucky I beleive joined the Waffen SS before the war and fought on the Eastern front,in fact several Americans volunteerd for service in German armed forces.Goddamed traitors.




bairdlander2 -> RE: Totenkopf SS Division (12/26/2010 11:45:28 PM)

"Additionally, there were SS units and entire SS 'Foreign Legions' consisting primarily of American, Indian, Arabs, Tartars/Cossacks amongst others. In fact, there was even units, such as SS Sturmbrigade Dirlewanger that accepted persecuted peoples such as Homosexuals, Gypsies and political prisoners. Ultimately, a significant majority (~60%) of men who volunteered and fought with the Waffen SS over the course of the war were not ethnic Germans. The Waffen SS even made allowances for religious traditions and beliefs with specialised uniforms and insignias, as well as providing spiritual guidance and service in non-Christian religions."quote from Wikipedia,not sure about accuracy as those articles can be written by anybody.





Titanwarrior89 -> RE: Totenkopf SS Division (12/27/2010 12:01:29 AM)

Thanks for the info Adam.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Adam Parker

And for Titan, here's the prime books on the 3rd SS (there are others but imo not as inclusive as these):

1. Soldiers of Desruction - as already mentioned here, the most scholarly coverage of the unit with a no holds barred expose of its operations.

2. Like a Cliff in the Ocean - a darned expensive "autobiography" of the unit, heavily supported by gloss pictorials, color situational maps, OOB's and eye-witness action reports throughout. It's a large-sized tome of quality gloss paper stock. This is a Fedorowicz publication and may soon be out of print, hence the cost - but it is a quality publication.

Being an autobiography of the unit though, it is heavy on the "apologetsia" - a desire to paint the unit with an honorable legacy. To this end, the introduction writes; that in addition to wishing to furnish an accurate combat history of the unit:

"This work is not an attempt at justification... We also trust that history will show more justice to the Waffen-SS".

It then goes on to explain that widows of the unit, should not need to feel the urge to take pictures of their husbands off the wall when their grandchildren visit. This is then followed by a lengthy discussion of how many other units in history, have worn the death's head into battle.

Any discussion of the SS is bound bring passionate debate. Here so far, things have been of the scholastic-curious type which I love. Nonetheless, when talking about any single Waffen-SS unit, the 3rd Totenkopf is bound to bring up controversy and as well, imo it should.

Below is a highly reduced pic from "Like a Cliff in the Ocean". If you can afford it and keep a library on military units, I highly recommend this book - but it's best viewed in balance with a resource such as Sydnor's.


[image]local://upfiles/6105/013B762AC8264CCC8C71AE0A0BF575AB.jpg[/image]





Steelers708 -> RE: Totenkopf SS Division (12/27/2010 12:46:26 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: bairdlander

"Additionally, there were SS units and entire SS 'Foreign Legions' consisting primarily of American, Indian, Arabs, Tartars/Cossacks amongst others.


There was no Waffen SS unit made up primarily of Americans, I know of 8 who fought with various units of the Waffen SS, if you're thinking of the so called George Washington Legion, you're thinking of a totally fictitious unit.

You will also find that the units of Indians, Arabs, & Tartars/Cossacks were Heer units and not Waffen SS.

Regarding the Britisches Freikorps, late in 1945 the British made up the crew of one of the Halftracks in the SS Panzer Aufklarungs Abteilung 11 of the 11th SS Freiwilligen PanzerGrenadier Division "Nordland".




Steelers708 -> RE: Totenkopf SS Division (12/27/2010 1:10:00 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Adam Parker

And for Titan, here's the prime books on the 3rd SS (there are others but imo not as inclusive as these):

2. Like a Cliff in the Ocean - a darned expensive "autobiography" of the unit, heavily supported by gloss pictorials, color situational maps, OOB's and eye-witness action reports throughout. It's a large-sized tome of quality gloss paper stock. This is a Fedorowicz publication and may soon be out of print, hence the cost - but it is a quality publication.



Like a Cliff in the Ocean is an English translation of the original Wie Ein Fels im Meer by Karl Ullrich, it was originally in two volumes, the 2nd volume being the "im Bild" (in pictures) volume and is an excellent book for those interested in pictures/photos of the Totenkopf.

French publisher Histoire & collections have recently brought out 'SS Totenkopf France 1940'. It is a photo book but is interesting in that it is:

" a faithful reproduction of a rare and valuable work - a collection of photographs of the SS Totenkopf Division in 1940: armoured columns, troops in action, river crossings, scenes of everyday life, French and British soldiers surrendering. The original Damals (which translates as ""back then"") was a remembrance book of ""The Great Days of the SS-Totenkopf Division battling through France in 1940"" by SS war correspondents Ege, Bauer and Bonda, and printed for the SS Fuhrungshauptamt in Berlin in 1941."

http://www.amazon.co.uk/SS-Totenkopf-France-Eric-Lefevre/dp/2352501156/ref=sr_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1293411833&sr=1-4


Heimdal have also recently produced an excellent book on the Totenkopf by author Charles Trang

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Totenkopf-Charles-Trang/dp/2840481715/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1293412093&sr=1-2




bairdlander2 -> RE: Totenkopf SS Division (12/27/2010 1:27:42 AM)

None of this matters they were scumbags and lowlife pure and simple and if I was back there and captured anyone of them I would execute them on the spot




Adam Parker -> RE: Totenkopf SS Division (12/27/2010 2:44:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Steelers708

French publisher Histoire & collections have recently brought out 'SS Totenkopf France 1940'.


Though O/T for this game, the author of that book is also responsible for the brilliant English language Panzers in Normandy Then and Now

A great book for WitE's West Front game when it comes out [;)]




Steelers708 -> RE: Totenkopf SS Division (12/27/2010 2:57:27 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Adam Parker

quote:

ORIGINAL: Steelers708

French publisher Histoire & collections have recently brought out 'SS Totenkopf France 1940'.


Though O/T for this game, the author of that book is also responsible for the brilliant English language Panzers in Normandy Then and Now

A great book for WitE's West Front game when it comes out [;)]



I remember when I first bought that book years ago and thinking it was the best book on the subject, but I have to say if you want information on the Panzer Divisions from 1943-45 then there is only one book to have in your library:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Fire-Brigades-Panzer-Divisions-1943-1945/dp/0921991924/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1293418211&sr=8-1

Whilst I wait with eager anticipation for WitE's West Front game(no pressure honestly) it's the joining of the 2 together that I really look forward too. And no, I don't care if it takes a month to do a single turn either, I plan on living a long, long time.




turska -> RE: Totenkopf SS Division (12/27/2010 7:51:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Titanwarrior89

How were the men for the Totenkopf SS Division selected for the unit?


Initially you had to volunteer for the Waffen-SS as well as to be "aryan". And you had to be tall (different height requirements for different units) and you had to be "model aryan" for the LAH: no filled teeth etc. As the war went on these restrictions got looser and from -43 men were also conscripted unvoluntary into Waffen-SS as there werent enough volunteers to cover up the losses.




randallw -> RE: Totenkopf SS Division (12/27/2010 8:13:43 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: bairdlander


quote:

ORIGINAL: Titanwarrior89

How were the men for the Totenkopf SS Division selected for the unit?

Most likely from prisons and mental institutions[:D]Seriously though it is interesting an American from Kentucky I beleive joined the Waffen SS before the war and fought on the Eastern front,in fact several Americans volunteerd for service in German armed forces.Goddamed traitors.


I'm guessing they may have been German lineage.




vinnie71 -> RE: Totenkopf SS Division (12/27/2010 9:34:44 AM)

The SS from '43 onwards also took the cream of recruits from the Reich, especially since Himmler also became leader fo the Reserve army which was the recruitment body of the armed forces. In essence they took first priority, which is also why the SS continued to expand it formations and fill their ranks, while the Heer's OOB stayed stable and then shrank with losses.

As a side note, the death's head emblem is an old one in German armies. Remember the Death's Head Hussars of Prussia? I'm not aware of an original unit that created it but once I read somewhere that it may have been the emblem of the Forlorn Hope units of swordsmen in late medieval times. In essence the death's head of the SS division was both an attempt to distinguish this particular unit but also the continuation of an ancient tradition.




Iron Duke -> RE: Totenkopf SS Division (12/27/2010 10:23:36 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: bairdlander

None of this matters they were scumbags and lowlife pure and simple and if I was back there and captured anyone of them I would execute them on the spot


Isn't that what made them 'scumbags and lowlifes' ,executing POW's out of hand is wrong , were better than them and should act like it.




KenchiSulla -> RE: Totenkopf SS Division (12/27/2010 10:27:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: dwesolick


quote:

ORIGINAL: Puhis

All that reminds me of this Mitchell & Webb sketch. They are SS soldiers wondering "why skulls???"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEle_DLDg9Y




That is a hilarious video! This one is pretty good too...Heil Doenitz!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHnyQXyuTGY&feature=related

quote:

That is a hilarious video! This one is pretty good too...Heil Doenitz


I laughed out loud.. hehehe




raizer -> RE: Totenkopf SS Division (12/27/2010 12:59:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Adam Parker

quote:

ORIGINAL: Steelers708

French publisher Histoire & collections have recently brought out 'SS Totenkopf France 1940'.


Though O/T for this game, the author of that book is also responsible for the brilliant English language Panzers in Normandy Then and Now

A great book for WitE's West Front game when it comes out [;)]


I have that and his other book-blitzkrieg in the west-80.00 bucks but worth every penny (7 pounds heavy and 700 pages of glossy photos of combat then and then the author retraces all the photos and takes current ones-I really love all the Meuse river crossing photos) I highly recommend these "Then and Now books" http://www.amazon.com/Blitzkrieg-West-Then-After-Battle/dp/0900913681




Theng -> RE: Totenkopf SS Division (12/27/2010 3:46:45 PM)

quote:

None of this matters they were scumbags and lowlife pure and simple and if I was back there and captured anyone of them I would execute them on the spot


Which would be a war crime. What you do to others says a lot more about you than about the person you do it to. No matter what these people did, and many if not most did despicable things, does not deprive them of due process. You are putting yourself on the same level as these people if you are as flagrantly disregarding the rule of law and decency as they have done.




Theng -> RE: Totenkopf SS Division (12/27/2010 3:55:05 PM)

quote:

How were the men for the Totenkopf SS Division selected for the unit?


Members of the Totenkopf division were generally speaking volunteers from the concentration and death camps. There was fluid exchange of troops between those them for "reconvalescence." This practice is and was the most damning contradiction for Waffen-SS apologists who proclaim a "clean shield" for the Waffen-SS and that the Waffen-SS was just another arm of the armed force of Nazi-Germany.

Later on the in war (42/43 onwards), the Waffen-SS generally continued to recruit from volunteers in Germany, who preempted their draft notice to the Wehrmacht. In much larger numbers, the Waffen-SS recruited Germans who lived had lived in Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Bulgaria, Rumania, and to a lesser degree the Soviet Union (remember there were tens of millions ethnically German, German-speaking people living in those countries, before and after WW2) that could not be legally drafted by the Wehrmacht, but could be recruited by the Waffen-SS. The non-German recruitment of the Waffen-SS was comparably tiny compared to the ethnically German draft/recruitment. Towards the end of the war (late 44 and 45), many Germans were simply drafted into the Waffen-SS as well.




TulliusDetritus -> RE: Totenkopf SS Division (12/27/2010 4:01:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Xian

quote:

None of this matters they were scumbags and lowlife pure and simple and if I was back there and captured anyone of them I would execute them on the spot


Which would be a war crime. What you do to others says a lot more about you than about the person you do it to. No matter what these people did, and many if not most did despicable things, does not deprive them of due process. You are putting yourself on the same level as these people if you are as flagrantly disregarding the rule of law and decency as they have done.


Normality never existed in the Eastern Front. Hitler clearly said it: the war in Russia would be an EXTERMINATION war. So Russians knew what to expect (slavs -Russians, Poles,etc.- would be the slaves of the Reich). That's why in the western front the Germans could seem -with some exceptions- 'gentlemen' [;)]

If I remember correctly, when the Soviets captured black uniforms they were shot on sight [:D]




hgilmer3 -> RE: Totenkopf SS Division (12/28/2010 4:22:27 AM)

quote:

Most likely from prisons and mental institutionsSeriously though it is interesting an American from Kentucky I beleive joined the Waffen SS before the war and fought on the Eastern front,in fact several Americans volunteerd for service in German armed forces.Goddamed traitors.


This is referenced in one of the episodes of Band of Brothers. In the 2nd or 3rd episode, one of the Americans does a mimic of holding a microphone to a German and says, "And where are you from soldier?" And in perfect English the guy replies, "Eugene Oregon".




Steelers708 -> RE: Totenkopf SS Division (12/28/2010 4:45:59 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: randallw


quote:

ORIGINAL: bairdlander


quote:

ORIGINAL: Titanwarrior89

How were the men for the Totenkopf SS Division selected for the unit?

Most likely from prisons and mental institutions[:D]Seriously though it is interesting an American from Kentucky I beleive joined the Waffen SS before the war and fought on the Eastern front,in fact several Americans volunteerd for service in German armed forces.Goddamed traitors.


I'm guessing they may have been German lineage.


You're right on that one, the eight I mentioned in an earlier post all had surnames of German origin. and don't forget alot of German families that emmigrated to American after WWI and in the 20's went back to Germany after Hitler came to power because the economy had been improved and Hitler was restoring Germany's National pride and influence once again. I dare say a lot of those families had very young children born in the US, but who in effect, were brought up as Germans.




janh -> RE: Totenkopf SS Division (12/28/2010 9:39:25 AM)

quote:

How were the men for the Totenkopf SS Division selected for the unit?


The initial cadres were in fact made up from guards units of camps and prisons, which in turn were ideologically selected. Don't remember exactly what criteria they put, but you can imagine that it was nuts. But I recall some British War historian writing that similar to the other frontline divisions of Waffen-SS, things changed after the winter of 1941. Most of the original cadres of the divisions had vanished by then, thanks to the heavy winter battles, and by 1942 these divisions were being filled up by army regular recruits and volunteers. Also (operational) control shifted to Wehrmacht, and the units were left only formal linkage to Himmler and his SS institution by name. The ideological background with the cadres was diminishing, but not so was the high-expectations into the performance of those units, which got instilled into the men. As much as for instance this happened with the not-SS, Wehrmacht elite division Großdeutschland. Obviously war-criminals remained in the Waffen-SS ranks, or perhaps such "extremists" also gathered there as volunteers. But they did so also in other (regular) Wehrmacht formations -- atrocities were committed not solely by Waffen-SS (or solely by Germans).

After the war, there was a big trial in Germany to recognize frontline Waffen-SS formations as regular Wehrmacht combat units (in contrast to the regular/"Camp-" SS), because that guaranteed the soldiers war pensions. They won this legal battle, and it was recognized that there was a distinction between people drafted into Waffen-SS in later war, and the murderer organization of Himmler. But in German public this is little recognized, and --understandably-- just invoking the term "SS" prevents any rational discussion about this. Suppose only war historians and judges make a clearer distinction there.




Titanwarrior89 -> RE: Totenkopf SS Division (12/28/2010 1:32:45 PM)

Interesting...
quote:

ORIGINAL: janh

quote:

How were the men for the Totenkopf SS Division selected for the unit?


The initial cadres were in fact made up from guards units of camps and prisons, which in turn were ideologically selected. Don't remember exactly what criteria they put, but you can imagine that it was nuts. But I recall some British War historian writing that similar to the other frontline divisions of Waffen-SS, things changed after the winter of 1941. Most of the original cadres of the divisions had vanished by then, thanks to the heavy winter battles, and by 1942 these divisions were being filled up by army regular recruits and volunteers. Also (operational) control shifted to Wehrmacht, and the units were left only formal linkage to Himmler and his SS institution by name. The ideological background with the cadres was diminishing, but not so was the high-expectations into the performance of those units, which got instilled into the men. As much as for instance this happened with the not-SS, Wehrmacht elite division Großdeutschland. Obviously war-criminals remained in the Waffen-SS ranks, or perhaps such "extremists" also gathered there as volunteers. But they did so also in other (regular) Wehrmacht formations -- atrocities were committed not solely by Waffen-SS (or solely by Germans).

After the war, there was a big trial in Germany to recognize frontline Waffen-SS formations as regular Wehrmacht combat units (in contrast to the regular/"Camp-" SS), because that guaranteed the soldiers war pensions. They won this legal battle, and it was recognized that there was a distinction between people drafted into Waffen-SS in later war, and the murderer organization of Himmler. But in German public this is little recognized, and --understandably-- just invoking the term "SS" prevents any rational discussion about this. Suppose only war historians and judges make a clearer distinction there.





Theng -> RE: Totenkopf SS Division (12/28/2010 2:26:43 PM)

quote:

Normality never existed in the Eastern Front. Hitler clearly said it: the war in Russia would be an EXTERMINATION war. So Russians knew what to expect (slavs -Russians, Poles,etc.- would be the slaves of the Reich). That's why in the western front the Germans could seem -with some exceptions- 'gentlemen'

If I remember correctly, when the Soviets captured black uniforms they were shot on sight


And there is the Kommissar Order and other extermination orders that required all troops to either kill Soviet Kommissars upon capture and for the Wehrmacht to assist in the extermination and wholesale killing of Jews. The adherence to these orders were mixed throughout the German forces on the East Front. Many followed them, some delayed, some even refused to follow the orders. The very interesting thing is that nobody who refused to follow these orders were every court martialed or had other adverse consequences as documented by the Wehrmacht Exhibitions in Germany over the last 10 years, where many apologists and revisionists tried to keep the honor of the Wehrmacht clean.

Both sides were not "nice to each other". The treatment of Soviet POWs in German capitivity was despicable and the treatment of German POWs by the Soviets was not better. Of the 300,000 German solidiers that were captured by the Soviets in Stalingrad, 5,000 came back after the war. The rest "died."

All sides in World War Two, Germans, Soviets, Americans, even the British committed war crimes including the killing of Prisoners of War. Just look at the POW numbers that were captured in Normandy. Those were unmotivated, second line, soft troops, the POW rates were extremely low and not because they were such fanatical fighters.... It's just that history is written by the victors and their crimes get conveniently forgotten.

More than 600,000 women committed suicide in Berlin between May and December 1945 after the Soviets occupied Berlin and not because they were heatbroken because the Fuehrer was no longer with them. The wholesale, repeated rape and sexual abuse took its toll. Basically every female between the age of 12 and 80, east of the river Elbe suffered the same fate.

There are no heros in that war. Only shades of gray and some were better than the others, but all sides had black sheep just some had more than others, a lot more than others.




Josh -> RE: Totenkopf SS Division (12/28/2010 2:51:17 PM)

@ Xian, "more than 600,000 women committed suicide"? Are you sure that number is correct? I find that a little hard to believe.




Steelers708 -> RE: Totenkopf SS Division (12/28/2010 4:41:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: janh

quote:

How were the men for the Totenkopf SS Division selected for the unit?


The initial cadres were in fact made up from guards units of camps and prisons, which in turn were ideologically selected.



The original members of the Totenkopf came from a variety of sources, in addition to those men who came from the existing SS-Verfugungstruppe and the Allgemeine-SS there were two other groups. The first of these was the SS Heimwehr Danzig(Danzig Home Defence Force), and this was the divisions first unit that had combat experience. It was battalion sized and had originally been formed under the title of SS-Totenkopf Sturmbann 'Goetze' and had been intended for police type duties. The second group were draft age personnel from the prison guard formations, most of these men came from the SS-Totenkopfverbande which was controlled at the time by Theodor Eicke, the Totenkopf's first commander. Out of a strength of 20,000 men only 6,500 had come from the SS-Totenkopfverbande. If the SS-Totenkopfverbande had not been accepted for assimilation into the Waffen SS then those members of draft age would have had to serve in the Heer(army), as had been the case prior to the start of the war.

The OKW only had 'tactical' control over the units of the Waffen SS, the SS Fuhrungshauptamt still retained administrative and operational control of the Waffen SS units and was responsible for it's organisation, equipment and order of battle. The SS Fuhrungshauptamt was formed in 1940 and was controlled by Himmler until he stepped down in 1943, at which point SS Obergruppenfuhrer Hans Juttner took over the departments management.

Throughout the war officers and men were transferred, both voluntarily and forced, between the army and Waffen SS units just as they were between army units.




Theng -> RE: Totenkopf SS Division (12/29/2010 9:26:42 PM)

quote:

@ Xian, "more than 600,000 women committed suicide"? Are you sure that number is correct? I find that a little hard to believe.


Okay, a high:

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verbrechen_der_Roten_Armee_im_Zweiten_Weltkrieg

Die unten angegebenen Quellen schätzen, dass Angehörige der Roten Armee gegen Ende des Zweiten Weltkrieges und in der Zeit nach Beendigung des Krieges über zwei Millionen deutsche Frauen vergewaltigten,[31][32][33] Mehrfachvergewaltigungen nicht eingerechnet.[34] Davon starben etwa zehn bis zwölf Prozent an Verletzungen, wurden ermordet oder begingen Selbstmord.[35]

35.↑ Bundesarchiv/Militärarchiv Freiburg Akten Fremde Heere Ost, Bestand H3, Bd. 483, 657, 665, 667, 690, Bundesarchiv Koblenz; Ostdokumentensammlung Ost-Dok. 2 Nr. 8, 13, 14; Ost-Dok. 2/51, 2/77, 2/96

So the more conservative estimates are at 200,000 to 240,000 murdered after rape or suicide after rape after being "liberated" by the Red Army. My apologies for the high number.




TulliusDetritus -> RE: Totenkopf SS Division (12/29/2010 10:15:53 PM)

Xian, I agree. Anyway, they Red Army was not "liberating" German civilians. They were invanding the country that er... previously invaded them. These crimes are indeed a fact. Suffice to say that even Pravda was forced to say [the audience: the Soviet soldiers themselves] that not all the Germans were guilty.

But of course, what did these soldiers see on their way to Berlin? Their destroyed and occupied land (and countless stories about atrocities). The fate of their POWs (by the end of 1941 two -out of three- million Soviet POWs had ALREADY died). Treblinka, Auschtwitz... It looks like they wanted revenge, that's indeed another fact.




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