Total research vs actual output? (Full Version)

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Liquid5n0w -> Total research vs actual output? (12/25/2010 8:13:16 PM)

So I've built a ton of research bases, but I seem to not be getting any effect from them, why is this? Can you only have 1 base per planet?

My research page says I have total output of almost 1mil in weapons, but actual output of 350k, whats going on here?



Spacecadet -> RE: Total research vs actual output? (12/25/2010 8:18:21 PM)

You have two research lines.

The upper line the current research you can support based on the number and type of research labs (actual capacity).
The bottom line is what your are actually generating based on development and bonuses (current potential).

You want the upper line to be greater in order to benefit from what you are generating - (actual capacity) > (current potential).




Liquid5n0w -> RE: Total research vs actual output? (12/25/2010 8:21:52 PM)

I don't think you are understanding me, my actual output is lower then my total capacity. A lot lower, it's one third the size. This means most of my capacity isn't being used. What gives?



caerr -> RE: Total research vs actual output? (12/25/2010 8:25:46 PM)

Can you post a screenshot of your research screen?



Shark7 -> RE: Total research vs actual output? (12/25/2010 8:26:26 PM)

I believe there is a mechanism in the game mechanics to help limit research so the player can't get too far ahead of the AI (basically, its a balancing mechanism).



Spacecadet -> RE: Total research vs actual output? (12/25/2010 8:26:35 PM)

Ah, research capacity grows over time with development.

The total of the three disciplines should add up to the number on the right middle - Empire Research or something like that.





lordxorn -> RE: Total research vs actual output? (12/25/2010 8:31:10 PM)

The Actual Research is based on your Strategic Value, which will grow as that does. However it will hit a limit where further research will be severly limited to control people like you. [:D]

This is explained in the galactopaedia.



Shark7 -> RE: Total research vs actual output? (12/25/2010 11:26:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: lordxorn

The Actual Research is based on your Strategic Value, which will grow as that does. However it will hit a limit where further research will be severly limited to control people like you. [:D]

This is explained in the galactopaedia.


Just think of it in these terms...all those fat government grants...the researchers start skimming from the funds...next thing you know... [;)]



Nibelung44 -> RE: Total research vs actual output? (12/26/2010 9:40:48 AM)

Although this limit is reached so fast that the extra bonus from special locations is rather useless I find. I prefer to stick 2-3 research bases on my home planet (they are cheap) and have my research maxxed in a secure way than disperse the stations in the space.



Litjan -> RE: Total research vs actual output? (12/26/2010 10:13:13 AM)

I think we all agree that the system with the research cap and the way research in general is generated is very basic and boring from a gameplay perspective. The way it is displayed in the UI is not clear at all and could be improved by a few simple words.

Everyone who understands the display of "potential" and "actual research" just got used to this - it is absolutely not clear to a new user and could be explained by just adding two short sentences to that screen. I.e.   "<--- this is your actual research points generated". And "<--- this is the maximum points you could generate". Well, maybe even relieve the user of the need to pull out the calculator and add all those actual points together. I will go totally wild and even suggest to have the programm form the DIFFERENCE between actual and potential points for us and display that [X(] [X(] . After all, this is a computer game, computers are really good at adding numbers!

Creating research points is just a chore of clicking to build a few bases, there is really no strategic decisions needed. Just ad a couple researchstations to your homeworld - the are built really fast, cost little maintenance and if they get killed at your homeworld the game is lost for you anyway.

I know there are fancy "research locations" all over, but it is hardly worth the effort to build a station there. Even the default labs in the spaceports will create more than enough research-points in almost all games. You can potentially save maintenance costs by using those multipliers, but then you have to manually mod the labs out of the spaceports first (otherwise you will have too many points, anyway). And the "autodesign" will just add them in again for the next iteration of spaceports, anyway.[:'(]

There are several ways I can think of to make this more "interesting" and somewhat "exciting", but I am sure the wishlist-thread is full of ideas and I am also sure Elliot is aware of the rudimentary nature of the researchsystem and will improve upon this in future updates.




ASHBERY76 -> RE: Total research vs actual output? (12/26/2010 11:26:28 AM)

I like the capped research system and the fact you do not have to spam a zillion spacestations ala GC2 thank you very much.One can also change the cost of tech and make it much more expensive too.



forsaken1111 -> RE: Total research vs actual output? (12/26/2010 11:46:39 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Litjan

I think we all agree that the system with the research cap and the way research in general is generated is very basic and boring from a gameplay perspective. The way it is displayed in the UI is not clear at all and could be improved by a few simple words.



Don't speak for me, I like the research system as it is.



the1sean -> RE: Total research vs actual output? (12/26/2010 3:37:46 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ASHBERY76

I like the capped research system and the fact you do not have to spam a zillion spacestations ala GC2 thank you very much.One can also change the cost of tech and make it much more expensive too.


I agree, the capped research system makes sure that large empires dont get totally out of control compared to smaller ones, a big problem in tons of 4X's. Also, the idea that the screen need more labels is pretty moot since the game features an awesome Galactopedia that explains things pretty dang clearly. However, I dont mind answering questions when people get stumped [;)]


quote:

ORIGINAL: Litjan

I think we all agree that the system with the research cap and the way research in general is generated is very basic and boring from a gameplay perspective. The way it is displayed in the UI is not clear at all and could be improved by a few simple words.


I respectfully disagree. The new research system is light years ahead of the Vanilla DW one, and different in a few simple but important ways:

About the Research Locations, everyone seems to miss the fact that the bonus from those locations INCREASES YOUR RESEARCH AFTER THE TECH CAP. So effectively you get more research beyond your empire's normal cap in exchange for good map control. So any player who wants to max out research should definitely be controlling these points, and by the way they stack, so a +15% weapons location and a +25% weapons location will net you +40% research bonus, that is applied AFTER the math is done to determine your empire's research cap in that area. Racial and Government bonuses to research work the same way as well if i remember correctly.

So the new research location system rewards map control by giving empires that control them a tech research boost that exceeds their normal research capacity. Simple but effective. I find those locations to be hot points of contention in my games...



Shark7 -> RE: Total research vs actual output? (12/26/2010 4:00:05 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: forsaken1111


quote:

ORIGINAL: Litjan

I think we all agree that the system with the research cap and the way research in general is generated is very basic and boring from a gameplay perspective. The way it is displayed in the UI is not clear at all and could be improved by a few simple words.



Don't speak for me, I like the research system as it is.


+1 I love the research system just as it is now.



Shark7 -> RE: Total research vs actual output? (12/26/2010 4:06:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: the1sean


quote:

ORIGINAL: ASHBERY76

I like the capped research system and the fact you do not have to spam a zillion spacestations ala GC2 thank you very much.One can also change the cost of tech and make it much more expensive too.


I agree, the capped research system makes sure that large empires dont get totally out of control compared to smaller ones, a big problem in tons of 4X's. Also, the idea that the screen need more labels is pretty moot since the game features an awesome Galactopedia that explains things pretty dang clearly. However, I dont mind answering questions when people get stumped [;)]


quote:

ORIGINAL: Litjan

I think we all agree that the system with the research cap and the way research in general is generated is very basic and boring from a gameplay perspective. The way it is displayed in the UI is not clear at all and could be improved by a few simple words.


I respectfully disagree. The new research system is light years ahead of the Vanilla DW one, and different in a few simple but important ways:

About the Research Locations, everyone seems to miss the fact that the bonus from those locations INCREASES YOUR RESEARCH AFTER THE TECH CAP. So effectively you get more research beyond your empire's normal cap in exchange for good map control. So any player who wants to max out research should definitely be controlling these points, and by the way they stack, so a +15% weapons location and a +25% weapons location will net you +40% research bonus, that is applied AFTER the math is done to determine your empire's research cap in that area. Racial and Government bonuses to research work the same way as well if i remember correctly.

So the new research location system rewards map control by giving empires that control them a tech research boost that exceeds their normal research capacity. Simple but effective. I find those locations to be hot points of contention in my games...



Another thing people miss about the research as it is...it also affects the trade screen because the cost of research can be heavily adjusted.

I play with research set to max cost (999k):

- No discovery, no matter how big he bonus is, results in an instant new tech.
- Trade costs for the base level items to trade is ~999,000 credits. The higher level tech was running into the hundreds of millions (ie 767,348,262)...
- Because of the costs, it is all but impossible to buy the techs, you have to give the AI some of your tech to get theirs, going a long way to balance and keep me from dominating.
- Research is slow enough that you actually have to use the new tech before the next breakthrough.




lordxorn -> RE: Total research vs actual output? (12/26/2010 4:45:49 PM)

Maybe the planetary research stations on the planet should be very limited, that way the player should be rewarded for going out there and building dangerous research stations next to a black hole. (I mean how far have research labs gotten us here on Earth, we are not even close to what Back to the Future thought we would be at).

I liked the old system because it was always the best to design a research station with 9 labs of each field and deploy near a black hole. This was usually all your needed.



PaulP -> RE: Total research vs actual output? (12/26/2010 5:05:32 PM)

I think the research system is quite clear and works fine. I like it.

And the bonuses are applied above and beyond your cap, so they are very useful. In my most recent game I have a site that gives +100% energy research. My total output of energy research is more than my entire empire potential due to it.



Nibelung44 -> RE: Total research vs actual output? (12/26/2010 10:51:28 PM)

Great, did not knew the bonus was after the cap! [:)]



Sithuk -> RE: Total research vs actual output? (12/26/2010 11:08:38 PM)

Nibel: I hadn't twigged that the bonus' were after the cap either. That'll certainly change the way I view those locations. I'm going to to max the research cost too, I like a more epic, slower paced game.



the1sean -> RE: Total research vs actual output? (12/27/2010 12:43:57 AM)

I like to play with 100k as the base tech cost, personally. Optionally I go for 250k for a long game. I like rounder numbers [:D]



Nibelung44 -> RE: Total research vs actual output? (12/27/2010 8:22:44 AM)

Yes, this changes completely the research system. From dull it becomes interesting, huzzah [:'(]



the1sean -> RE: Total research vs actual output? (12/27/2010 6:40:01 PM)

Yeah, it's a simple but effective change. I didnt notice it at first, either [:'(]



Litjan -> RE: Total research vs actual output? (12/27/2010 8:22:42 PM)

Well, I am happy that everyone is happy. I wasnīt really talking about the new tech-tree and so on, I really like that, too. I was more disappointed about how lifeless and just a chore it is to get research-points. Make sure you build enough stations to get to your cap. Done.
I didnīt think that this would hold so much fun and fascination for everyone else [:'(].




forsaken1111 -> RE: Total research vs actual output? (12/27/2010 9:05:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Litjan

Well, I am happy that everyone is happy. I wasnīt really talking about the new tech-tree and so on, I really like that, too. I was more disappointed about how lifeless and just a chore it is to get research-points. Make sure you build enough stations to get to your cap. Done.
I didnīt think that this would hold so much fun and fascination for everyone else [:'(].


Well perhaps next time don't assume your opinion is that of everyone else's. And it isn't just "build stations until cap and done" as we've been trying to tell you. The bonuses are above and beyond the research cap, so even if you are capped it is worth establishing bases at as many points as possible.



Erik Rutins -> RE: Total research vs actual output? (12/27/2010 10:26:06 PM)

Hi Litjan,

You can also get research and tech through trading, through exploration, through disassembling discovered ships at shipyards and repairing them in debris fields (ongoing bonus while they are being repaired) and through expionage. With the more meaningful strategic research locationg in the expansion, I think research is much more interesting now and not just about building labs, though that is certainly a big part of it.

Regards,

- Erik



the1sean -> RE: Total research vs actual output? (12/28/2010 4:01:57 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Hi Litjan,

You can also get research and tech through trading, through exploration, through disassembling discovered ships at shipyards and repairing them in debris fields (ongoing bonus while they are being repaired) and through expionage. With the more meaningful strategic research locationg in the expansion, I think research is much more interesting now and not just about building labs, though that is certainly a big part of it.



Well put, Erik.



Krob -> RE: Total research vs actual output? (12/28/2010 10:20:15 AM)

TLDR:
Total Empire Research Potential/3 = Base output for each field which is then multiplied by all bonuses in turn.
If TERP/3 > Total Research Capacity, build more stations.
Research Bonus locations can provide a significant amount of research.

=================

I might have missed it, but I only saw a negative comment about placing stations at the bonus sites and nothing directly refuting that.

As an example, my first starbase upgrade has 5 of each research lab giving it a base of 100 in each field. Assume I have 2 of these bases, for a Total Capacity of 200. Now assume that, given the state of my empire, my base Output is limited to 180 in each field. Thankfully I'm in an awesome start location and quickly discover a 42% Weapons, a 36% Energy, and 51% High Tech location. Even though I'm capped at 180, my actual output is now 255, 244, and 271 respectively making those bonus locations incredibly useful, if a little bit risky.

It's also good to point out that the Total Empire Research Potential (TERP) is the sum of the actual output before bonuses or rather, the maximum base output for each field is TERP/3. That is, in the above example, it would be 540 (540/3=180). Based on my calculations, it's also nice to note that multiple bonuses are applied in succession. Add in my Cardia Armaments Installation (+100% to weapons) and you'd get 180*2*1.42=511, which, without the 42% bonus station reduces actual output to 360. I'm not sure how Nibelung44 would consider that 151 points to be "rather useless". In my game, my paltry +17% bonus gives me 145 points (out of 1003 total with that Weapons bonus and my Technocracy bonus).

Lastly, it would appear that the ongoing bonus Erik referred to applies to the TERP.


K



Litjan -> RE: Total research vs actual output? (12/28/2010 1:09:44 PM)

Ok, thanks everyone for replying and explaining - I also never knew how the bonus applies and how research points are calculated in detail. I guess that proves one of my points, i.e. that the way research points are generated, calculated and applied is not totally clear to most users and in fact could be represented a little more clearly.

Erik said you get research through exploration? By repairing ships in debris-fields (ongoing bonus)? I have never heard of that. If so, thatīs great, but I would love to see a message saying: You have just gained 35k researchpoints in hi-tech by discovering ancient ruins, or repairing a derelict ship. If it just "happens" most users will miss it and the cool-factor is lost.

Donīt get me wrong, I love this game. If indeed the way to generate research is as intricate as it seems to be, then we should endevour to make it a little more obvious so it holds more fascination for the average user.

Some suggestions:

UI: Improve the research-points page by clearly showing and labeling research points accumulated by the labs (raw points), the total empire cap, the difference between the two, and the total output after bonuses (and what these boni are).

I would love to be able to see how many research points other empires generate, maybe it could be added to the comparison page? This way you can tell better how you compare.

When stealing research from other races (or they from me), how many "points" do they steal? It should show on the popup.

Just some ideas. I am sure there are many more out there, like having researchlabs on ships in combat or on exploration gain special research-points, research-agreements as diplomatic options, having a spy go into deep cover in an enemy research lab (and draining points from them to you) and so on.

I didnīt mean to alienate anyone with my posts, and should maybe indeed assume less that everyone has the same views as me... [;)]

Jan




Krob -> RE: Total research vs actual output? (12/28/2010 1:17:11 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Litjan
Erik said you get research through exploration? By repairing ships in debris-fields (ongoing bonus)? I have never heard of that. If so, thatīs great, but I would love to see a message saying: You have just gained 35k researchpoints in hi-tech by discovering ancient ruins, or repairing a derelict ship. If it just "happens" most users will miss it and the cool-factor is lost.


Some of the ruins will do exactly that. It doesn't give you the number, but it will tell you that you've found valuable research in x tech.
For each ship in a debris field that you're repairing, it will give you a bonus to your TERP. The exact number is not displayed, however.
You can receive bonuses from repaired/acquired ships if you retire them (not scrap). Again, it doesn't tell you how much, just the tech.


K



the1sean -> RE: Total research vs actual output? (12/29/2010 5:06:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Litjan

Erik said you get research through exploration? By repairing ships in debris-fields (ongoing bonus)? I have never heard of that. If so, thatīs great, but I would love to see a message saying: You have just gained 35k researchpoints in hi-tech by discovering ancient ruins, or repairing a derelict ship. If it just "happens" most users will miss it and the cool-factor is lost.


I am pretty sure that the research page lists that you are getting bonuses while repairing (down on the bottom right?), it just doesnt list the amount (but you can usually see this very easily by looking at the research category screens)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Litjan
I would love to be able to see how many research points other empires generate, maybe it could be added to the comparison page? This way you can tell better how you compare.


This WOULD be a nice addition to the comparison pages, good suggestion for the wish-list. It would also help testers see where the AI might be faltering.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Litjan
When stealing research from other races (or they from me), how many "points" do they steal? It should show on the popup.


Yes, it should. This is a feature that espionage, in general, lacks. That, and missions need to be able to be set to repeat.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Litjan
Just some ideas. I am sure there are many more out there, like having researchlabs on ships in combat or on exploration gain special research-points, research-agreements as diplomatic options, having a spy go into deep cover in an enemy research lab (and draining points from them to you) and so on.


You can definitely find awesome technologies or gain progress in scientific fields through exploration and plot development!




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