german 37 vs the rest (Full Version)

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jerrek -> german 37 vs the rest (12/15/2000 11:23:00 AM)

Recently while playing westfront (can't do spwaw all the time) and losing several p3j and p4f2 at 2-3 hexes (250m/hex) to stuarts with 37mm i became rather frustrated at the power of the little guns. Looking up spwaw i saw that the penetration of 2pdr and US 37mm is not far from twice that of german 37mm (39mm vs 75 vs 71). So why is this so.



Captn_Jack -> (12/15/2000 11:54:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by jerrek: Recently while playing westfront (can't do spwaw all the time) and losing several p3j and p4f2 at 2-3 hexes (250m/hex) to stuarts with 37mm i became rather frustrated at the power of the little guns. Looking up spwaw i saw that the penetration of 2pdr and US 37mm is not far from twice that of german 37mm (39mm vs 75 vs 71). So why is this so.
Could it be due the the different ammo types? I don't think the Germans had the APCR or do they? CJ



Grumble -> (12/15/2000 1:41:00 PM)

Higher velocity weapon and better ammunition. US troops had much better supplies of sabot rounds than their German opponents did of APCR.



Bonzo -> (12/15/2000 2:17:00 PM)

Tungsten. The naval blockade of Germany limited their access to this vital metal & the choice was either superior machine tools or superior AP ammo. Tungsten used for machine tools can be resharpened & worn out/broken tools can be recycled. Send it down range at high speed & it's gone. The germans chose machine tools & had to settle for standard AP shot & APCR. ------------------ Robert (Bonzo) Lindsay, Coordinator 28th (North-west) Battalion Headquarters Main http://nwbattalion.tripod.com Mirror http://dreadnaught.home.icq.com E-mail [email]nwbattalion@icqmail.com[/email]



BA Evans -> (12/15/2000 11:05:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by Bonzo: Tungsten. The naval blockade of Germany limited their access to this vital metal & the choice was either superior machine tools or superior AP ammo. Tungsten used for machine tools can be resharpened & worn out/broken tools can be recycled. Send it down range at high speed & it's gone. The germans chose machine tools & had to settle for standard AP shot & APCR.
Hi Bozo, What is the difference between normal APCR ammo and Tungsten APCR? Thanks, BA Evans



Lars Remmen -> (12/15/2000 11:34:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by BA Evans: Hi Bozo, What is the difference between normal APCR ammo and Tungsten APCR? Thanks, BA Evans
As far as I know, tungsten is very hard and quite dense. That means that you can get an equal amount of kinetic energy into equally heavy but smaller caliber projectile. The smaller caliber projectile with the equal energy will provide better penetration as the energy is concentrated on a smaller area of the armour. Furthermore a tungsten projectile, being very hard, will keep its sharp point better than a normal penetrator again providing better penetration. Anyway, that's how I understand it. ------------------ Lars Nec Temere - Nec Timide



Daniel Oskar -> (12/16/2000 12:23:00 AM)

In comparing the performance of the 2pdr, US 37mm M6, and German 3.7cm KwK L46.5 the data for armor penetration most often comes from testing by the producing nation. While it seems to have been standard to quote penetration of a given value of armor at 30 degrees from the vertical, its difficult to find the Brinell or Poldi hardness of the tests. As a result you may not know if your comparing apples to oranges. As for "souped up" tungsten rounds, greater muzzle velocity is usually achieved due to these rounds being 50-60% the weight of a conventional AP round. This makes for a huge increase in short range penetration, but once the range increases the advantage is mostly lost.



Paul Vebber -> (12/16/2000 4:48:00 AM)

The penetration figures are a combination of "book values" and two different equations for "theoretical" performance. In large part it comes down to KE=mv^2 Type of shell (capped or not, APCR, APDS etc) plays a big role, but the following data from ww.wargamer.org gives a good sense of why the German 37mm was so "wimpy". proj mass (kg) Vel (m/s) Ger 37mm .685 745 2lber (capped) 1.22 792 US 37mm .87 884 ------------------



BA Evans -> (12/16/2000 5:04:00 AM)

So the German 37mm was both slower and lighter? No wonder it has less penetration! Thanks for the info guys, BA Evans



jerrek -> (12/16/2000 10:53:00 AM)

my god those germans did it tough at the beginning. How did they destroy anything with those things. The values i was comparing against were normal values i think, not apcr. It can be difficult to get proper results for these things i suspect. In the game tanks the author must have used apcr results for all british guns as they were mighty good, 17pdr better than 88l71 etc.



Daniel Oskar -> (12/17/2000 3:16:00 AM)

In '44 the brits came up with a quantum leap in ammunition technology, the sabot round. That may explain the awesome performance of their 6 and 17 pdr.



AmmoSgt -> (12/17/2000 9:38:00 AM)

I found an excellant technical discusion of the factors involved with APCR at the following web site http://www.warships1.com/W-tech/tech-055.htm sorry ..i haven't figured out how to put hotlinks in these posts hmmm thats not a hot link that is suposed to be a web address it works if ya type it in i don't know why it became a link it wasn't supposed to be [This message has been edited by AmmoSgt (edited December 17, 2000).]



Igor -> (12/17/2000 12:04:00 PM)

In '44 the brits came up with a quantum leap in ammunition technology, the sabot round. That may explain the awesome performance of their 6 and 17 pdr. You would think so; but not really. Discarding sabot rounds didn't work any better than APCR until after the war; when a way was found to counteract the rifling of the barrel so you could use fin stabilized penetrators.



kao16 -> (12/18/2000 10:08:00 AM)

APDS round had better carry than APCR. The APDS had less air resistance as only the penetrator carried to the target, while in APCR the round was full calibre diameter to contact - which meant that it lost velocity faster and hence penetration dropped off faster than for APDS.



AmmoSgt -> (12/18/2000 11:57:00 AM)

Actually the spin affects HEAT rounds much more than APDS. The centrifical forces messed with the jet formation in any monroe effect (technical term for principle behind HEAT round) weapon , this is why bazookas worked so well . Also velocity has an adverse effect on HEAT in so far as the initiation time in early HEAT was more or less fixed and faster or slower impacts could affect jet formation . APDS works more along the line of weight per square inch of impact area long thin heavy penetrators applying more energy per sq inch than short fat rounds the fins are for stabilization more than anything else and affect accuracy more than anything else . Since the math is Energy = mass times velocity squared speed affect energy in APDS in a positive way and rifling in a rifled tube bleeds off energy thru increased friction and loss of linear energy into spin slowing the round ..you gain energy thru velocity by using a smooth bored weapon and stabilizing thru fins, perferably not canted fins that spin the round due to the drag increase. the heavier and denser the base material for the penetrator the more mass per square inch at inpact: hence depeleted uranium works better for a couple of reasons (the other main reasons being it is about the right hardness that it does not shatter on impact..to hard can be bad, things do shatter ya know .. and that uranium tends to ignite like magnesium when you get your kenetic energy impact conversion to heat effect). There are other factors that go more into art than science while barrel length (the longer the better ) is a norm matching the burn rate and time of the propelant to the barrel as well as the burn characteristics can make a shorter barrel in those sweet coincidences that rarely happen out perform a longer barrel and the pitch of the rifleing can over or underspin a round usually due to manfacturing defects(lack of uniformity of weight distribution of explosive filler usually) can cause shells to spin out of kilter . The French CN series cannon have a Boruele ( that part of the shell the rides the Rifleing) that spins seperate from the round allowing their HEAT to operate more efficently while providing a gyroscopic effect for stabilization that is pretty much uneffected by filler density . The shell still spins somewhat but not as much as a fixed Boruele round like a NATO 105 . Speaking of ammo how come we don't have any HEP ammo thats some preety good stuff especially when you consider it is pretty predictable in behavior over a wide variety of ranges . HEP is basically a big wad of plastic expolsive behind a windscreen that smashes onto the target with an impact fuse at the rear causing tremendous spalling in conventional homegenious armor plate say pre 1990 and it works on a variety of armor thicknesses like from thin APC armor thru thick Main battle tanks ... any way hope this helps



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