A $90 computer wargame?

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jeffward -> A $90 computer wargame? (12/30/2010 6:44:28 PM)
First I want to stipulate that I love Matrix Games, have quite a few of their titles, and tried to email this concern directly to the Matrix powers that be. There was no such email address. I am intrigued by the latest version of War in the East as I would be with any Gary Grigsby title. But $90 for a PC wargame? Yikes! HPS games are equally, if not more involved, and they never go for more than 50 bucks. "So don't buy it!" you say. You're right! That's always the customer's option, but that kind of pricing makes me far less likely to ever buy another Matrix title. There's a "you gotta be kidding" factor that drops Matrix down a few levels in prestige. My reticence to buy that or any other product certainly won't put Matrix out of business, but we all are entitled to offer our opinions. Thanks! Jeff Ward

junk2drive -> RE: A $90 computer wargame? (12/30/2010 6:48:04 PM)
My opinion is that if a really good game came along for $30 and you didn't buy it just to be stubborn, it is your loss. Like saying that because GM prices a Cadillac really high you are never going to buy a GM product.

Hertston -> RE: A $90 computer wargame? (12/30/2010 6:57:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jeffward My reticence to buy that or any other product certainly won't put Matrix out of business, but we all are entitled to offer our opinions. True, and the WitE 'pricing' thread went on a while, but... quote: HPS games are equally, if not more involved, Opinions need to be informed to be valuable. I own many HPS games, have enjoyed most of them, and still play the WW3 stuff from time to time - and I can tell you that comment is complete BS. No offence. quote: There's a "you gotta be kidding" factor that drops Matrix down a few levels in prestige. Only if WitE didn't deliver. It does. I wouldn't trade it for a dozen of Tiller's games, and I like Tiller's games.

jeffward -> RE: A $90 computer wargame? (12/30/2010 7:01:26 PM)
Your analogy is off. What I'm semi-saying is, if you're gonna gouge me I'll take my business elsewhere.

V22 Osprey -> RE: A $90 computer wargame? (12/30/2010 7:12:54 PM)
Keep in mind the resources it takes to make these PC Wargames. The manpower and historical research. The amount of labor that went into game is worth the price. 90 bucks is 90 bucks. It's alot. But IMO it's like going to Rolls Royce and complaining about the price. The price of a Rolls Royce is too high for some, but that doesn't mean it isn't worth it, does it? This game is hand crafted, it just doesn't seem that way because it's pixels. I would be more than happy if you provided a link to a wargame that's anywhere on caliber of War in the East that's less than $90

Lützow -> RE: A $90 computer wargame? (12/30/2010 7:16:47 PM)
PzC offsprings are just mods. Tiller releases another OOB every 8 weeks and call that a new game. If he added a decent editor to his "games", people could create their own scenarios and nobody would purchase his products anymore. Can't really compare that with Grigsby titles.

warspite1 -> RE: A $90 computer wargame? (12/30/2010 7:22:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jeffward First I want to stipulate that I love Matrix Games, have quite a few of their titles, and tried to email this concern directly to the Matrix powers that be. There was no such email address. I am intrigued by the latest version of War in the East as I would be with any Gary Grigsby title. But $90 for a PC wargame? Yikes! HPS games are equally, if not more involved, and they never go for more than 50 bucks. "So don't buy it!" you say. You're right! That's always the customer's option, but that kind of pricing makes me far less likely to ever buy another Matrix title. There's a "you gotta be kidding" factor that drops Matrix down a few levels in prestige. My reticence to buy that or any other product certainly won't put Matrix out of business, but we all are entitled to offer our opinions. Thanks! Jeff Ward Warspite1 I would comment as follows: Matrix provides niche war games for a niche market. They are a commercial enterprise; they exist to make money for the stakeholders of the company. If they achieve that whilst at the same time treating customers fairly, then they stay in business, Get either wrong and they won't be.... The niche status of the market they operate in, means that their titles are never likely to appeal to the "mass market" and therefore they have to allow for this when developing a title and fixing the price. Is it right that they charge $90 for a game? Well as far as I know, they are charging what they believe to be the right amount in order to achieve the vital balance of sales and profit - as opposed to a gratuitous hike in price in order to take the mickey out of their customer base. I think that so long as any game is of the quality as WITE or WITPAE, and that it receives the constant support and updates required, then I am more than happy to pay this level of charge. Frankly, if World In Flames can be brought to market, stable, bug free (or near as damn it and then supported with regular patches) then I would be willing to pay appreciably more than $90. Compare the retail price of HMS/GRD's Total War or the board version of World In Flames; what Matrix charge is not bad value.... My 2 pennies.

Hertston -> RE: A $90 computer wargame? (12/30/2010 7:26:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jeffward Your analogy is off. What analogy? I didn't offer one. Your comparison with the HPS games, though, makes little sense. He makes his money by selling comparitively low volumes of large numbers of games that need minimal development work other than the necessary research, the base engine being what, now, fifteen years old?. Granting that significant improvements have been made most could still be called legitimately, if a little unfairly, grossly over-priced scenario packs. quote: What I'm semi-saying is, if you're gonna gouge me I'll take my business elsewhere. Fair enough, although obviously the amount of 'gouging' is a matter of opinion. Matrix are a business like any other and, after consulting the developers, set the price that they consider will maximise profits for both parties. I wish you luck in picking up a title comparable to WitE elsewhere. If you find one, could you let us know?

V22 Osprey -> RE: A $90 computer wargame? (12/30/2010 7:34:23 PM)
Deleted, lets stay on topic.

hgilmer3 -> RE: A $90 computer wargame? (12/30/2010 7:42:33 PM)
Jeff, all I can say it is worth the mopney, but we all have to make our own decisions as to what the cost/benefit of anything we buy is for ourselves. I could tell you for 30 days straight the game is worth the money, but for you, it might not be. I'm seeing a lot of new posters that have come out of the woodwork to buy this game. The scope of it is only matched by other Gary Grigsby games. And add to that, even though the scope is tremendous, it is fairly easy to get into the game and actually play it. I did not but BFTB because of the price. That is neither here nor there. But, I do put thought and effort into what I buy. I figure the price - about $90 means it has to be worth two "regular" games to me. For me, it definitely is. You have an editor. You have almost unprecedented support. The testers are beyond anything I have ever seen. Pretty much all of them are available for clarification. You don't get that pretty much anywhere else. But, as I said, it is you and what you believe to be your benefit.

JAMiAM -> RE: A $90 computer wargame? (12/30/2010 7:42:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jeffward Your analogy is off. What I'm semi-saying is, if you're gonna gouge me I'll take my business elsewhere. It's only gouging if you must buy it. Otherwise, it is a discretionary expenditure. It is at the offering company's discretion to charge what price they feel is justified, according to their needs, and it is at yours to buy it, if you feel the enjoyment:cost ratio is sufficiently high enough to warrant the purchase.

Fred98 -> RE: A $90 computer wargame? (12/30/2010 8:43:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jeffward What I'm semi-saying is, if you're gonna gouge me I'll take my business elsewhere. But you can't because there is nothing eqivalent anywhere ! =

Feltan -> RE: A $90 computer wargame? (12/30/2010 8:44:14 PM)
OK, someone's got to say it ----- Ninety bucks for a game like this is a deal! It lasts forever, with almost limitless replay potential. I could spend an easy $90 for a dinner date, and not even get laid! Regards, Feltan

jeffward -> RE: A $90 computer wargame? (12/30/2010 8:52:31 PM)
Yeah guys! And what most (not all) of you are missing is that, while trying not to be nearly as absurdly belligerent as some of you (ain't Internet anonymity grand!), IT'S MY OPINION that $90 crossed the line. IT'S MY PERCEPTION that that price point - even for one game - makes Matrix games less appealing. And before you start with Economics 101 again, I've invented a product I've made a living off that product, I have an online business and have been self employed for the last 25 years. Rest assured I understand what it takes to make a profit. Of course, other OPINIONS are certainly welcome especially those that said, "You're right - it's expensive - but I think it's worth it." Thankfully, there are still sane people on this planet. I'll also challenge some of your Tiller vs. Grigsby comparisons. Again, I love 'em both, it comes down to a matter of opinion and yes, the engine is the same for most HPS games. But while Mr. Grigsby has released more than one clunker (War in Russia was abysmal), HPS is incredibly consistent. I'd also like to point out that this is either Mr. Grigsby's third or fourth attempt at the subject (I lose count with him). One does begin to wonder how long it'll take for him to get it right. And the one gentleman is right - I haven't posted here in a long time - but how did that joke go? The kid didn't say a thing for 15 years and finally, one morning at the breakfast table he said "cereal cold!" The flabbergasted mother replied, "Johnny you haven't said anything for 15 years!" The kid responded, "Up to now, everything's been OK." I've been playing wargames since Tactics II. Now that I've pretty much said my piece, that brave plurality of you can commence with the absurd anonymous responses. Jeff

Terminus -> RE: A $90 computer wargame? (12/30/2010 8:57:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jeffward Your analogy is off. What I'm semi-saying is, if you're gonna gouge me I'll take my business elsewhere. That "threat" doesn't mean much when you yourself have admitted that you making it won't affect Matrix's bottom line. Don't buy it if you don't want to, but don't expect those of us who HAVE bought it to care what you think.

warspite1 -> RE: A $90 computer wargame? (12/30/2010 9:00:57 PM)
You started a thread that gave your opinion on something. People responded in an essentially civil fashion, giving their opinion and then you reply with: absurdly belligerent Internet anonymity Economics 101 sane people absurd anonymous responses ...how bizarre.....

JudgeDredd -> RE: A $90 computer wargame? (12/30/2010 9:16:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jeffward .... IT'S MY PERCEPTION that that price point - even for one game - makes Matrix games less appealing. .... Well I've had a few things to say on price in the past, that's for sure...so I understand your thoughts - except the above? How does the price of one game affect your respect for Matrix Games other current and future products?

jeffward -> RE: A $90 computer wargame? (12/30/2010 9:30:27 PM)
Dear Judge, If I feel a company is trying to gouge me - and I think they are in this case - I have a hard time patronizing them for any other reason. Jeff

VicKevlar -> RE: A $90 computer wargame? (12/30/2010 9:33:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jeffward Yeah guys! And what most (not all) of you are missing is that, while trying not to be nearly as absurdly belligerent as some of you (ain't Internet anonymity grand!), IT'S MY OPINION that $90 crossed the line. IT'S MY PERCEPTION that that price point - even for one game - makes Matrix games less appealing. And before you start with Economics 101 again, I've invented a product I've made a living off that product, I have an online business and have been self employed for the last 25 years. Rest assured I understand what it takes to make a profit. Of course, other OPINIONS are certainly welcome especially those that said, "You're right - it's expensive - but I think it's worth it." Thankfully, there are still sane people on this planet. I'll also challenge some of your Tiller vs. Grigsby comparisons. Again, I love 'em both, it comes down to a matter of opinion and yes, the engine is the same for most HPS games. But while Mr. Grigsby has released more than one clunker (War in Russia was abysmal), HPS is incredibly consistent. I'd also like to point out that this is either Mr. Grigsby's third or fourth attempt at the subject (I lose count with him). One does begin to wonder how long it'll take for him to get it right. And the one gentleman is right - I haven't posted here in a long time - but how did that joke go? The kid didn't say a thing for 15 years and finally, one morning at the breakfast table he said "cereal cold!" The flabbergasted mother replied, "Johnny you haven't said anything for 15 years!" The kid responded, "Up to now, everything's been OK." I've been playing wargames since Tactics II. Now that I've pretty much said my piece, that brave plurality of you can commence with the absurd anonymous responses. Jeff [image]http://media.nscdn.com/uploads/cache/images/1246394182-707552-600x405-obvious_troll.jpg[/image]

Terminus -> RE: A $90 computer wargame? (12/30/2010 9:37:15 PM)
BTW, it's not possible to "gouge" somebody on a luxury item like a computer game. If you were being asked to pay $90 for a loaf of bread, then you might have half a leg to stand on.

Chad Harrison -> RE: A $90 computer wargame? (12/30/2010 9:38:16 PM)
I just wanted to throw my 2 bits in here. I have purchaes the last three high priced games from Matrix (War in the Pacific: Admirals Edition, Command Ops: Battles of the Bulge and now War in the East). Each of those game had a very heated, very long debate about the price for those games. I stayed out of those because I dont try to argue with people about thier purchasing decisions, because its their decision. However, the reason that I am more than happy to pay that much for these three games is because I will be playing these games for years and years. They are that good. They are that deep. They are that well researched. Except for BofB, they have PBEM. And better yet, they are all very well supported. Compare that against buying a mediocre $40 game. Or even a $20 game. I will play these mainstream titles for a couple hours over the course of a week or two and then they are shelved. If I buy 3 or 4 of these mainstream clones, I have just spent just as much as any of these wargames. The difference: I will still be playing that wargame for years to come. Obviously its your money and your call, but thats why I as a consumer who has nothing to do with Matrix is more than happy to pay that much for a great game. And not to mention supporting these companies (such as Panther or 2by3) so they continue to make these 'monster' games. Chad

hgilmer3 -> RE: A $90 computer wargame? (12/30/2010 9:58:41 PM)
quote: But while Mr. Grigsby has released more than one clunker (War in Russia was abysmal), This line more than any other makes me think you are trolling. War in Russia is considered a fine game by most wargamers. Hell, I still played it every now and then before WITE came out. WiTE and WiTP-AE pretty much secured Gary Grigsby as being the all time great war game developer for large scale war games.

parusski -> RE: A $90 computer wargame? (12/30/2010 10:01:03 PM)
[sm=00000939.gif] quote: ORIGINAL: jeffward Your analogy is off. What I'm semi-saying is, if you're gonna gouge me I'll take my business elsewhere. The word "gouge" is so overused and misunderstood. And offensive in this case. Gouging is NOT a matter of opinion. Gouging really has a very narrow meaning. There are laws, federal and state that deal with real price gouging. In the pejorative sense price gouging is when necessities such as food, clothing, shelter...are priced at levels outrageously higher than normal, usually to take advantage of a natural disaster or shortages due to other reasons, such as the 1973-1974 OPEC embargo of oil to the U.S. Even in these instances there are disagreements about whether there should be laws dealing with these issues. You are not being gouged. You just are not, as a consumer, willing to pay the price for an item of entertainment that is fairly, legally and rightfully set by the manufacturer/maker/designers....! And as warspite1 states "Matrix provides niche war games for a niche market.", and that's key. There is not a huge population of gamers like those of us who find $90.00 a bargain. I must again jump on warspite1's bandwagon: "absurdly belligerent Internet anonymity Economics 101 sane people absurd anonymous responses ...how bizarre..... " Those bizarre accusations are, uh, bizarre and should be explained. Not one response was even close to being "absurdly belligerent". This is not "economics 101", it's economics 1, except rarely do people understand even level 1. As for "absurd anonymous responses"?? Well, you just joined. Today. Several of us, like junk2drive, Hertston, JAMiAM, Terminus, JudgeDredd and I have been around from 4-10 years. The other members have been around a little less, but still several years so we are not totally anonymous. We do have a history here and that counts for something. And we are defenitley not sycophants. The game is worth more than $90. I would have paid just about any price(though it might have required a second mortgage).

rich12545 -> RE: A $90 computer wargame? (12/30/2010 10:15:05 PM)
I remember when wargames first came out. Strategic Simulations was the first and only publisher for the first few years starting in 1980 or 81. Games were on 5 1/4 floppies, had horrible graphics and not much to them. Ram and storage space was minimal so what did you expect? Anyhow, they cost $60 in 1980 dollars. How much would that be today? I won't be buying WitE because it's not my kind of game but after paying $60 for several games (you're welcome Joel), $90 is a real bargain imo.

diablo1 -> RE: A $90 computer wargame? (12/30/2010 10:18:10 PM)
quote: I wish you luck in picking up a title comparable to WitE elsewhere. If you find one, could you let us know? Well really there's already been two, SSI's "Second Front" and "War in Russia" and I even have another called "Road to Moscow". I forget what the title of the HPS game is but that's yet another one. Games don't have to be totally identical to be the same. A few tweaks here and there or small additions to the mechanics of how the game plays doesn't change what it represents. Just yet another battle of Barbarossa. This time to cost the gamer $80 to $100

parusski -> RE: A $90 computer wargame? (12/30/2010 10:41:29 PM)
Yeah, great point. I remember paying $35-45.00 for PC games around 1990 which would cost between $58 and $70 in today's prices. And they were crap games.

sprior -> RE: A $90 computer wargame? (12/30/2010 10:45:11 PM)
Buying a wargame is not like death or taxes and can be easily avoided.

junk2drive -> RE: A $90 computer wargame? (12/30/2010 10:47:16 PM)
1998 I paid $79 for Legend of Zelda for N64. Who remembers how much Space Invaders was for Atari?

Toby42 -> RE: A $90 computer wargame? (12/30/2010 10:48:49 PM)
Don't Feed the TROLL!!! Yea Jeff, take your business somewhere else.... This whole thing has been dissed over before. I can't stand people knocking something that they don't own.....

vonRocko -> RE: A $90 computer wargame? (12/30/2010 11:04:04 PM)
Why is he a troll? He just gave his opinion, and because you guys don't agree, he's a troll! For what it's worth, $90 is alot for a game, no matter how you guys rationalize it. For cryin out loud, let people give their opinions!

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