Correct Soviet Air Doctrine (Full Version)

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matt.buttsworth -> Correct Soviet Air Doctrine (1/2/2011 7:27:39 PM)

I am learning through error to play Soviets in 1941 GC. What in peope's experience are the correct air doctrine Soviets in this first terrible year.

All advise appreciated.

Matthew Buttsworth
Germany



Montbrun -> RE: Correct Soviet Air Doctrine (1/2/2011 7:57:16 PM)

I don't know what the "best" strategy is, but I send all of the Soviet Air Units to the National Reserve after the first several turns of running away, and then reorganize my Air Force around 04/42, when you get Air Armies.



mmarquo -> RE: Correct Soviet Air Doctrine (1/2/2011 8:09:59 PM)

Brad,

In your experience, what is the difference between setting the percent needed to fly over one hundred and putting the air units in the national reserve?



Aurelian -> RE: Correct Soviet Air Doctrine (1/2/2011 10:04:22 PM)

The NR is off map, so they are beyond enemy reach while they refit/reorganize/train what have you.

And the enemy is beyond their reach until they're back on the map.



mmarquo -> RE: Correct Soviet Air Doctrine (1/2/2011 11:27:11 PM)

Well if you set the percentage to fly over 100% on air bases far to the rear, how is that any different?



randallw -> RE: Correct Soviet Air Doctrine (1/3/2011 12:46:30 AM)

I've decided that these crappy pilots shouldn't limit their deaths to pathetic flying accidents while fellow countrymen are having to flee their foxholes every day.

Currently I have air bases a good distance from the front lines, about 20-25 hexes, with an empty airbase in between as the transfer/waypoint.  Fighters stay back as protection, bombers go out every and drop flaming vodka bottles on Germans at night.



randallw -> RE: Correct Soviet Air Doctrine (1/3/2011 12:51:28 AM)

The top line German fighters can't reach my bases too well; the He-111s and Do-17s basically go out on their own.  I take some losses from raids on my airfields but the 111s and 17s don't get away without some payment.



jomni -> RE: Correct Soviet Air Doctrine (1/3/2011 12:55:16 AM)

Actually Soviet losses after the first turn is not so bad.  And having them around is useful for automated recon, air defense, and movement interdiction (quite effective).   I have had little success on direct attacks on units and airbases.  I lose from 1-2 planes per German loss only.

Any other tips to make good use of the Soviet Air Force? 
I also don't know how to drop supplies on the partisans.



randallw -> RE: Correct Soviet Air Doctrine (1/3/2011 1:00:30 AM)

Partisan air supply is semi-automatic.  The computer checks your VVS bases for transports and uses them to automatically fly supply; if those planes aren't there ( or can't reach the partisans ) then it tries other planes/bases.



randallw -> RE: Correct Soviet Air Doctrine (1/3/2011 1:08:31 AM)

There's still the disappointment of seeing only about 10%-20% of bombers actually getting to the target hex on bombing; will have to check the manual to see why.



gradenko2k -> RE: Correct Soviet Air Doctrine (1/3/2011 4:18:15 AM)

I haven't played a GC yet, but I've had some success with the following strategy:
1. At the start of my turn, set the Percentage to Fly at 20% or lower
2. Recon the German airfields until I get DET 10
3. Bomb the airfields repeatedly. I usually just shift-click and send every available plane at them
4. Repeat steps 2-3 for each target airfield
5. Before I end my turn, set the Percentage to Fly at 105% or higher. If no one goes up into the air, the Germans can't shoot me down (although obviously they can still bomb your airfields directly)

I'm usually able to rack a 2:1 loss ratio on each of my Soviet turns. I take some more losses during the German turns obviously, but I think the "empty forward airbase" (good idea!) can mitigate that somewhat - although how do I know if I'm setting my actual full airbases too far back?



Aurelian -> RE: Correct Soviet Air Doctrine (1/3/2011 5:43:36 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marquo

Well if you set the percentage to fly over 100% on air bases far to the rear, how is that any different?


The NR is immune to any and all Axis action. They can't be bombed, attacked, put in an enemy ZOC, or even stared at.



randallw -> RE: Correct Soviet Air Doctrine (1/3/2011 7:11:48 AM)

Each aircraft type has a range, listed in miles; each hex is worth 10 miles, so just divide the range by 10 and that's the maximum amount of hexes the type can reach ( from the forward airbase ).

The amount of flak I have to face depends on the flight angle, and sometimes the target.  Sometimes there's 30 or 40 88s and maybe 60 or 70 other pieces, other times I face a dozen pieces.  The Axis Allies are weaker of course.

You probably want to avoid having the airbases, with planes, within 20 hexes of the front line; the Bf 109s can reach you then.



Blind Sniper -> RE: Correct Soviet Air Doctrine (1/8/2011 2:24:29 PM)

quote:

I don't know what the "best" strategy is, but I send all of the Soviet Air Units to the National Reserve after the first several turns of running away, and then reorganize my Air Force around 04/42, when you get Air Armies.


I found it a very gamey move and I'm astonished to see several testers do it...

They have to stay in the map except for airgroups that really need this recollocation.
Then the Russian player can place all his aircraft in the borders (and I don't like this move too) but I have some chances to hit them at least (even if very few).

Hide all, repeat all your air force (Nationale Reserve o border) is not tactic.



KenchiSulla -> RE: Correct Soviet Air Doctrine (1/8/2011 3:15:07 PM)

I agree with Blind Sniper, the soviet player should be punished more severely for putting large chunks of its AF into the NR!

Imagine Stalin asking: "where are our planes" with applicable commander chief replying "they are hiding in the Far East sir, all 9000 of them..." I mean, c'mon...
And that is coming from a player who is planning on a PBEM soviet side...



heliodorus04 -> RE: Correct Soviet Air Doctrine (1/8/2011 4:12:44 PM)

As a newb, I agree with the previous two posts.
If I can't rename L Corps to 50th Corps because it's a-historical (how I hate translating Roman numerals in my head!), then gamey psychic strategies like that ought to be disallowed by the game mechanics.



ool -> RE: Correct Soviet Air Doctrine (1/8/2011 4:39:29 PM)

I NR all the frontline units after turn one. Lets face it their morale is in the toilet so what else can you do? As for the rear area bases all I-153 are automatic into the reserve and upgraded ASAP, admin points permitting. SB2's are NR ASAP as well. They are flying clay pigeons.

I tried the all to NR in a few practice games and found it annoying to be without recon or fighter cover for rear echelon areas that weren't hit day one.



Blind Sniper -> RE: Correct Soviet Air Doctrine (1/8/2011 4:50:28 PM)

quote:

then gamey psychic strategies like that ought to be disallowed by the game mechanics.


I think that is only important the "common sense", the National Reserve is a good mechanic per se (and useful for Russian in the early years).

How to do it by code? I don't know, I'm mot a programmer.
How to do it in game? Gentlemen's agreement.
I'm playing a PBEM game with a forum member (Fletcher) and after two or three turns we reached the same conclusion, don't put everything in the Nationale Riserve (or other).
We are playing Road to Leningrad and every turn I receive an air attack at least. We never talked about House Rules, just common sense.

We want to play the '41 Campaign and I'm glad to have found a fair opponent like him [:)]



heliodorus04 -> RE: Correct Soviet Air Doctrine (1/8/2011 4:54:20 PM)

Yeah, sorry to have said "game mechanics" - I'm not a programmer and don't know how hard such a thing is.  I didn't mean to be mean-spirited/critical.  I love the game.
Cost APs beyond a certain threshold of units per turn?  I dunno.
If I could find someone with that same gentleman's agreement mindset, I'd be happy (and I resolve not to do it myself as Soviet).



ComradeP -> RE: Correct Soviet Air Doctrine (1/8/2011 7:09:56 PM)

Air to air combat, air base bombings and AA damage are currently broken to the extend that the VVS bombing Luftwaffe bases will quickly cause significant losses the Luftwaffe can't take whilst the Soviets take minimal losses. notenome and me have agreed not to do so until it's fixed, as it's just too gamey currently.



matt.buttsworth -> RE: Correct Soviet Air Doctrine (1/8/2011 8:48:02 PM)

Very interesting.

The German airforce should reign supreme at least until Citadel in 1943.

MB



kfmiller41 -> RE: Correct Soviet Air Doctrine (1/9/2011 12:27:50 AM)

I am playing as the Soviet in 2 games and I NR all my planes after turn one and then gradually put them back in in various areas, I do minimal damage against the Germans but I need some recon and want to at least contest the air. I have not attacked german bases but I plan to in the winter. If it turns out to be gamey I will dial it back



heliodorus04 -> RE: Correct Soviet Air Doctrine (1/9/2011 12:31:37 AM)

Air base attacks, not counting turn 1, are broken - don't fly those missions - they don't work as intended.



Ametysth -> RE: Correct Soviet Air Doctrine (1/9/2011 3:39:18 AM)

I like to put my Soviet LR bombers on Night Missions (TB-3, DB-3, IL-4) and use them against Axis fighter fields, especially those that are near front or next to some Stuka fields. Then I send my LB types (SB-2, Pe-3 etc.) against Axis front line support airfields, knocking out as many Fighter, TacB and FB fields as I can during day missions. This allows my TacB support to operate relatively un-opposed and I tend to switch most of the I-15/-153's and I-16's to bomber roles to make most of the advantage in tactical air support. They sometimes get lucky and manage to catch some Axis unit moving during German turn and can do a quite a dent even on Pz Divisions.

Any LB units who has missions left go after Axis Recon fields as those type of planes have low build rates, so Germans are bound to run out of Rec types sometimes.

This works both ways, so protecting SB-2(recon) models is one of main tasks as well. If pool runs empty with that particular aircraft model, recon range will drop seriously. I fly as many recon missions as possible with other (R-10, U-2 etc) models, only using SB's when I feel there is something I really need to know.



randallw -> RE: Correct Soviet Air Doctrine (1/9/2011 6:03:44 AM)

Air units, for either side, train up to 40 experience; beyond that they must fly, fly, and fly, to get experience up.  For the Sovs that means earning it the hard way, facing a lot of fighters better than theirs ( unless you can somehow go after the Fins and Axis minors massively ).



heliodorus04 -> RE: Correct Soviet Air Doctrine (1/9/2011 6:05:55 AM)

I'm confused.  I thought several aerial warfare functions of the game were known to be 'buggy', including air-to-air combat and some others?  I thought I read that here, am I mistaken?



randallw -> RE: Correct Soviet Air Doctrine (1/9/2011 6:15:43 AM)

Yes, some people complain how the combat results work out:

Disappointment that airfield attacks don't kill a lot of planes, after the Axis attacks on turn 1

Recon planes are hard to shoot down with fighters

Sometimes too many planes, or too little, show up for ground support



Blind Sniper -> RE: Correct Soviet Air Doctrine (1/9/2011 2:14:19 PM)

quote:

Air to air combat, air base bombings and AA damage are currently broken to the extend that the VVS bombing Luftwaffe bases will quickly cause significant losses the Luftwaffe can't take whilst the Soviets take minimal losses. notenome and me have agreed not to do so until it's fixed, as it's just too gamey currently.


Interesting, what do you think about ground support?

In my last turn I made several attacks with aircrafts in ground support and the enemy losses were very few.
With a German infantry division I attacked a Russian tank unit (another one in reserve joined the battle) and about 60-80 aircrafts (bombers) provided ground support, running the game with Combat Resolution Message Level 4 I noticed that they destroyed/disrupted about 40 men and a couple of tanks. Clear terrain, clear weather, turn 1 Road to Dnepropetrovsk.

Of course I'm not saying nothing, I'm just reporting what I'm seeing playing the game.
Can you give me more details?



Blind Sniper -> RE: Correct Soviet Air Doctrine (1/10/2011 9:42:10 AM)

Sorry to bump but can ComradeP or whoever know how the air system works help me?

I was not able to find other topic correlated to ground support.



BletchleyGeek -> RE: Correct Soviet Air Doctrine (1/10/2011 12:38:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Blind Sniper
Sorry to bump but can ComradeP or whoever know how the air system works help me?

I was not able to find other topic correlated to ground support.


I think ComradeP is referring to air base attacks. There were some thread or other complaining about 1943 scenarios where German armor was being butchered by hordes of Shturmoviks and U-2s, but I can't remember any follow-up to that.

Regarding the topic of retreating the VVS to the "hills" (i.e National Reserve) and leaving them there until one gets the best planes, my opinion that it's not a wise move in the long-term. Morale is bad, very bad actually, but you need the pilots to fly missions - recon, air transport, ground support - and fight it out nonetheless. Soviet air production is huge, so VVS will recover. I usually lose something like 5:1 in fighters against the Luftwaffe in 1941, but that's not so much of a problem, the bulk of the losses I-16s, I-153s and MiG-3s. I've been also prioritizing the allocation of new LaGG-3 and Yak-1 against the Finns and the Romanians and while they get heavy losses they also shoot down some planes.

That 1941 and 1942 air battles should leave you with a cadre of experienced, battle-hardened air formations which will be unvaluable, while inflicting some damage on the Luftwaffe, even if limited.



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