Timing/Strategy of Moving Factories (Full Version)

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dereck -> Timing/Strategy of Moving Factories (1/3/2011 5:55:01 PM)

When moving Heavy Industry and Armaments Production, is it better to move ALL of it (HI or Arms Production) at once or move in steps so you still have some still producing? I know if the city is in danger of falling it's best to get as much out as possible but if just planning ahead while there's time what's the best?

Also, I'm in turn 1 of the campaign game. Kharkov isn't in danger - yet - but there are a 51 T-34 and 16 Su-2 factory there. Should I move as much as I can of each now and take the production hit up front right so that they will have time to build back up production for when the Soviets are ready to go on the offense or should I wait until Kharkov actually gets in danger of being captured?



SireChaos -> RE: Timing/Strategy of Moving Factories (1/3/2011 6:05:20 PM)

First off, donīt move anything that will stop producing soon, anyway. This means mainly the BA-10 factory in Leningrad (produces until 9/41) and the Su-2 factory in Kharkov (produces until 12/41).

Then, the time to move things is not when a city is in danger of being captured, but when its rail connection is in danger of being cut off - much easier to do with German Panzer units than capturing cities.



ComradeP -> RE: Timing/Strategy of Moving Factories (1/3/2011 7:34:25 PM)

Another, fairly simple, thing to keep in mind is that large factories require more rail capacity to move, so there's something to be said for evacuating factories like the T-34 factory in Kharkov early, also because it will then be able to produce for the winter and expand in the mud/snow turns, instead of being in repair during the winter. The same goes for the KV factory in Leningrad.

Armament and heavy industry production can essentially be moved at your leisure unless the Axis are close. You don't have to move it all at once.



dereck -> RE: Timing/Strategy of Moving Factories (1/3/2011 7:49:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

Another, fairly simple, thing to keep in mind is that large factories require more rail capacity to move, so there's something to be said for evacuating factories like the T-34 factory in Kharkov early, also because it will then be able to produce for the winter and expand in the mud/snow turns, instead of being in repair during the winter. The same goes for the KV factory in Leningrad.



That's sort of what I was wondering. Thanks for confirming what I was thinking.



Grotius -> RE: Timing/Strategy of Moving Factories (1/3/2011 7:53:09 PM)

The rulebook's section on this confuses me. It seems to suggest that it's OK to move some factories piecemeal, but others not. Which can be moved piecemeal, and which can't? Or can they all be moved in tiny bits and pieces?



ComradeP -> RE: Timing/Strategy of Moving Factories (1/3/2011 8:09:49 PM)

Theoretically, they can all be moved "in tiny bits and pieces" but if you move an aircraft/equipment/AFV factory, all the factory points you don't move will be lost. Let's say you move 1 point of a factory with a capacity of 20, the other 19 points will be lost after the move and will in most cases come back when the factory is fully repaired/undamaged and can expand again.



SireChaos -> RE: Timing/Strategy of Moving Factories (1/3/2011 8:42:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

Theoretically, they can all be moved "in tiny bits and pieces" but if you move an aircraft/equipment/AFV factory, all the factory points you don't move will be lost. Let's say you move 1 point of a factory with a capacity of 20, the other 19 points will be lost after the move and will in most cases come back when the factory is fully repaired/undamaged and can expand again.


Thatīs another thing to keep in mind: factories start producing again once damage goes below 50, but they only expand once damage is back to 0 - which happens 16-17 turns after damage hitting 50 for AFV and aircraft factories.

So, if for example you evacuate the T-34 factory in Kharkov, when it is at size 60, by moving 1 piece of it, and letīs it receives 60 damage in the process...

... it would otherwise have been another 15 turns before it hit full size (75).
... however now it will not produce at all for 4 turns (you effectively lose 240 T-34 that donīt get built)
... it will restart production at 1 per week, and stay there for another 16 turns before it begins expanding again (you effectively lose 784 T-34)
... it will then take 59 turns to be back where it was when you evacuated it (you effectively lose ca. 1,750 T-34)
... the expansion from 60 to 75 per week is delayed by 79 turns, or about a year and a half (you effectively lose ca 1,200 T-34)

Whereas, if you evacuate the complete factory and it takes 60 damage in the process...

... youīll still lose 4 weeks of production (240 T-34)
... itīll take another 16 turns until expansion resumes, but this time from 60, not 1, so hitting 75 per week is delayed 16 turns (costing you another 240 T-34)

So, unless my math has deserted me, in this scenario evacuating 1 point of factory costs you ca. 4,000 T-34 that arenīt produced, whereas evacuating the whole factory costs you ca. 480 T-34 that arenīt produced - letīs call it a difference of 3,500 tanks. Conclusion: not evacuating the whole factory is not recommended unless in an extreme emergency.



SireChaos -> RE: Timing/Strategy of Moving Factories (1/3/2011 8:54:14 PM)

I just made a little spreadsheet to get the numbers right. (The ones in the previous post were just calculated in my head)

If the factory is evacuated in turn 0, the completely evacuated size 60 factory reaches full size of 75 on turn 35, whereas the factory with 1 point evacuated reaches full size on turn 94. Had the factory not been evacuated, it would of course reach full size on turn 15.

From turn 0 to turn 94, the total number of T-34 produced is...

... for a factory that is not evacuated, 7005
... for the fully evacuated factory, 6465 (you lose 540)
... for the minimally evacuated factory, 2925 (you lose 4080)



TulliusDetritus -> RE: Timing/Strategy of Moving Factories (1/3/2011 9:24:14 PM)

Nice tips, SireChaos. Your e-enemy says 'thank you' [sm=00000622.gif]

P.S.: turn almost done [8D]



SireChaos -> RE: Timing/Strategy of Moving Factories (1/3/2011 9:37:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

Nice tips, SireChaos. Your e-enemy says 'thank you' [sm=00000622.gif]

P.S.: turn almost done [8D]


How do you know I didnīt use some completely bogus numbers in a clever scheme to trick you into doing something stupid?



Grotius -> RE: Timing/Strategy of Moving Factories (1/6/2011 1:45:33 AM)

When you move a factory, does the size of the city housing the new factory matter? That is, when I'm picking new factory-homes in the Urals, should I favor big-population cities over little cities? For that matter, should one be careful not to overload even a big city with too many factories?



CarnageINC -> RE: Timing/Strategy of Moving Factories (1/6/2011 1:47:21 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SireChaos


quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

Nice tips, SireChaos. Your e-enemy says 'thank you' [sm=00000622.gif]

P.S.: turn almost done [8D]


How do you know I didnīt use some completely bogus numbers in a clever scheme to trick you into doing something stupid?

[:D]



jimkehn -> RE: Timing/Strategy of Moving Factories (1/6/2011 2:08:52 AM)

hmmm I need to re read. I thought a damaged factory produced fewer AFV's/Planes commensurate with its damage level. Maybe I didnt read your post as well as I should have.



LiquidSky -> RE: Timing/Strategy of Moving Factories (1/6/2011 2:14:14 AM)



The city you rail it to needs to have a railyard (or port, but good luck finding one in siberia). The larger the railyard and manpower, the faster the industry will expand.



jomni -> RE: Timing/Strategy of Moving Factories (1/6/2011 2:52:25 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LiquidSky
The city you rail it to needs to have a railyard (or port, but good luck finding one in siberia). The larger the railyard and manpower, the faster the industry will expand.


Am I screwed if I didn't take these in to consideration? All I did was send them back to a couple of big cities.



Sabre21 -> RE: Timing/Strategy of Moving Factories (1/6/2011 2:53:14 AM)

Section 21.2.1.1 describes factory movement. Basically you can move any factory piecemeal, but any that can rebuild up to a limit will lose any left in the departure location that aren't moved.

Aircraft, armor, and combat vehicles will grow back to the build limit and any left behind are lost. Heavy industry, armaments, and generic vehicles do not rebuild at the destination and can be moved over a period of several turns. But what you have is what you got, so anything that gets overrun is lost for good. As for the others, even getting out a single factory point is all that is needed for them to rebuild. But if you only move say 1 point of of 36 in the departure city, then you will lose 35 of them.



ComradeP -> RE: Timing/Strategy of Moving Factories (1/6/2011 12:48:38 PM)

quote:

The city you rail it to needs to have a railyard (or port, but good luck finding one in siberia). The larger the railyard and manpower, the faster the industry will expand.


That's documented in the manual as a special rule for factories with an expansion rate between 0 and 1, which is indicated as 0. Other factories have fixed expansion and repair rates.



jomni -> RE: Timing/Strategy of Moving Factories (1/7/2011 1:20:31 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

quote:

The city you rail it to needs to have a railyard (or port, but good luck finding one in siberia). The larger the railyard and manpower, the faster the industry will expand.


That's documented in the manual as a special rule for factories with an expansion rate between 0 and 1, which is indicated as 0. Other factories have fixed expansion and repair rates.


Ah so I'm not screwed after all.



kingwanabee -> RE: Timing/Strategy of Moving Factories (1/27/2011 12:22:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Grotius

When you move a factory, does the size of the city housing the new factory matter? That is, when I'm picking new factory-homes in the Urals, should I favor big-population cities over little cities? For that matter, should one be careful not to overload even a big city with too many factories?


This is a great question. I"m wondering this also. Anybody? [&:]



kingwanabee -> RE: Timing/Strategy of Moving Factories (1/29/2011 1:49:24 AM)

*bump* please



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