Influence of OCS games like Case Blue? (Full Version)

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Grotius -> Influence of OCS games like Case Blue? (1/4/2011 4:51:46 PM)

I've been wondering whether the designers of WiTE -- or any of my fellow gamers -- have ever played "Case Blue" or other Operational Combat Series (OCS) boardgames about the Eastern front. Case Blue is 5 miles per hex, down to the battalion level, but it bills itself as "operational" rather than tactical. Other examples include "Baltic Gap" and "Guderian's Blitzkrieg."

Obviously there are substantial differences in style and scope, especially given that WiTE is not a board game; I'm not suggesting in any way that WiTE is derivative of OCS. Indeed, I find it much more playable than the OCS games, which require huge amounts of table space and exclusion of all pets and children from the play area for weeks. As I play WiTE, I keep saying to myself, "At last, an operational game that is playable!" Nonetheless, there are some general similarities in style between the games, so I'm curious whether anyone here (including the designers) have ever played them.

Link to the Case Blue page at Boardgamegeek.com: http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/29285/case-blue

And one shot of the map in action:

[image]local://upfiles/7808/F48FDDF23278454A9EB8490006DC31D9.jpg[/image]



jimkehn -> RE: Influence of OCS games like Case Blue? (1/4/2011 4:53:44 PM)

Mmmmmmm....OCS



Phatguy -> RE: Influence of OCS games like Case Blue? (1/4/2011 4:57:31 PM)

I love Baltic Gap



glvaca -> RE: Influence of OCS games like Case Blue? (1/4/2011 4:59:15 PM)

Yup, playing the complete Case Blue game right now. July '42 and we're in a headlong drive for the oil [:)]
Great game, much better then FiTE/SE. Although I like WiTE much more, at least you can play by yourself and during the week through Pbem.
We're already going for about a year real time on the GC game starting in Oct '41! [X(]



CarnageINC -> RE: Influence of OCS games like Case Blue? (1/4/2011 5:56:19 PM)

THE GAMERS!!!  I love their Standard Combat Series!  There OCS are really good also.  I only have on of the Tactical Combat Series but their all very well made and look fantastic [:)]



Joel Billings -> RE: Influence of OCS games like Case Blue? (1/4/2011 7:02:38 PM)

Gary and I aren't familiar with those games. We both stopped playing and buying board wargames in the early eighties. When I read the post at first I thought you were referring to OSG (Operational Studies Group) which shows you how long ago I was playing boardgames.



amatteucci -> RE: Influence of OCS games like Case Blue? (1/4/2011 7:08:12 PM)

Excellent series!
I always liked the possibility to stockpile supply. Think only of the impact of this in artillery barrages and reduction of pockets...



Crimguy -> RE: Influence of OCS games like Case Blue? (1/4/2011 7:57:14 PM)

Their map is certainly attractive . . .



Grotius -> RE: Influence of OCS games like Case Blue? (1/4/2011 8:23:55 PM)

And the units are beautifully detailed, too. The games are gorgeous to look at. The rules are intricate but not as bad as, say, Advanced Squad Leader.

Joel, that's interesting that neither you nor Gary have played the OCS games. I suppose I shouldn't be surprised; most wargamers I know also have switched to PC games. I myself stopped playing board games in the 80s, but I resumed the hobby about a decade ago. Board games, and wargames in particular, have not stood still -- there are many fabulous choices now.

Anyway, I'm glad to see there are some other OCS gamers here in the forum, in any case. :)



jjdenver -> RE: Influence of OCS games like Case Blue? (1/4/2011 8:39:06 PM)

I'd love to find some gamers in Denver that would play those games. They always looked like lots of fun.



jimkehn -> RE: Influence of OCS games like Case Blue? (1/4/2011 10:32:02 PM)

THey had some mods for some of these games for like aide de camp and another one I cant remember. You can play the games by email with those aides but man it would still be difficult as they are difficult. But Im just happy with WitE.



E -> RE: Influence of OCS games like Case Blue? (1/4/2011 10:35:09 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

Gary and I aren't familiar with those games.


That brings up a question I've been dying to ask for a couple decades... One can read between the lines with the different versions of The Warp Factor, was the same "method" was employed for the other games?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

We both stopped playing and buying board wargames in the early eighties.


And yet the board wargaming background is readily apparent in WITE (and greatly appreciated by myself, if no one else! *grin*).

And one other question... when are we going to see version 3 of Computer Ambush?





Rickuh -> RE: Influence of OCS games like Case Blue? (1/4/2011 11:54:13 PM)

Love OCS. Playtested DAK, Burma, GB2, & CB, and I own all OCS titles.

I think WitE is the best computer "boardgame" ever. [&o]



Whyalterhistory -> RE: Influence of OCS games like Case Blue? (1/5/2011 12:12:00 AM)

Brings back memories of my days play testing games at Avalon hill in Baltimore. Best time of my life.



CarnageINC -> RE: Influence of OCS games like Case Blue? (1/5/2011 1:01:19 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jjdenver

I'd love to find some gamers in Denver that would play those games. They always looked like lots of fun.


Where were you when I lived there? I could never find anyone who was interested.



Titanwarrior89 -> RE: Influence of OCS games like Case Blue? (1/5/2011 1:11:42 AM)

Loved DAK. I have Case BLue but have not yet played it....Board gaming Twilight Imperium and getting ready to do SPQR once I get the rules down. OCS is a great system.



Grotius -> RE: Influence of OCS games like Case Blue? (1/5/2011 3:39:48 PM)

The only one I've really played is Tunisia, which is a great intro to the OCS system. Now that I'm playing WiTE, I'm itching to play Case Blue or Baltic Gap, which were given to me for Christmas a year ago. :)



BletchleyGeek -> RE: Influence of OCS games like Case Blue? (1/5/2011 4:04:06 PM)

Another big fan of OCS here and proud owner of Burma and Baltic Gap.

I find some striking analogies between OCS and WiTE. For me WiTE is the OCS for computer wargaming. That is: as close as it can get to the real thing.



Joel Billings -> RE: Influence of OCS games like Case Blue? (1/5/2011 5:53:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: E

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

Gary and I aren't familiar with those games.


That brings up a question I've been dying to ask for a couple decades... One can read between the lines with the different versions of The Warp Factor, was the same "method" was employed for the other games?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

We both stopped playing and buying board wargames in the early eighties.


And yet the board wargaming background is readily apparent in WITE (and greatly appreciated by myself, if no one else! *grin*).

And one other question... when are we going to see version 3 of Computer Ambush?



In the early days of SSI there was some heavy borrowing from board games. In three cases SSI paid royalties to the board game company (Computer Bismarck, Warp Factor and Ringside Seat, IIRC). There were other games that some thought were taken from board games which were not. As long time boardgamers we were heavily influenced by boardgames. Gary was one of the early designers that although influenced by boardgames, was doing things very creatively and at times much different from boardgames (his early reliance on actual numbers of weapons instead of a combat factor was a big part of this). With WitE, we wanted to make a game that old boardgamers would appreciate, but my East Front boardgaming stopped with War in the East and Drang Nach Osten.



E -> RE: Influence of OCS games like Case Blue? (1/5/2011 10:02:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

In the early days of SSI there was some heavy borrowing from board games. In three cases SSI paid royalties to the board game company (Computer Bismarck, Warp Factor and Ringside Seat, IIRC).



The Warp Factor surprises me, as I was under the impression that Paramount sqawked about the shapes of the graphics, which ADB had (and has) a perpetual license to use.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings
There were other games that some thought were taken from board games which were not.



It was easy to assume more were... Fifty Mission Crush versus B-17 Queen of the Skies, Computer Air Combat versus Air Force/Dauntless, Computer Ambush versus Ambush (I still want a version 3 of Computer Ambush that lets me play the Germans in solitaire!!! *grin*), etc.

So, does Gary have a fix for the no stacking limits in the Apple version of Kampfgruppe yet? *grin* (seriously, I'd like to have that one, as it was incorporated in Battlegroup...)



CarnageINC -> RE: Influence of OCS games like Case Blue? (1/6/2011 1:17:10 AM)

I recently purchased, a few years ago...lol, Avalanche Press "World at War" series.  Third Reich and The Great Pacific War.  They are very well done games and are very easy to pickup yet have a realistic feel to them.  Has anyone else played these?



jimkehn -> RE: Influence of OCS games like Case Blue? (1/6/2011 1:52:28 AM)

I think we all neeed to take a deep breath. This game is NOT OCS...as good as OCS is....they arent even close. OCS is like 1 or 2 miles to the hex and WITE is 10. Yeh OCS Inf XXsbreak down to three regiments, and the names of the towns are the same and in the same locations, but thats about where the likenesses end. OCS has many batallions running around and maybe even companies in DAK??? CAnt remember for sure. OCS had air patrol operations and WITE doesnt. Not needed. Do your dogfighting inside the mission. I love OCS and I LOVE EUROPA and I LOVE WITE. And personally I see more resemblance to Europa than I do OCS. And even that cant compare. Europa is 16 miles to a hex. But forget about thinking this is a computer version of either. Its not. IMO its much better. The attention to detail concerning even the number of men it takes to man a HMG is staggering. The intricate leadership rules. The way fatigue works even for just being adjacent simulating friction between opposing units.....where do u find THAT in a board game. Well you all understand my point Im sure. I know there have been a few complaints about some of the aspects of the airwar and some of the Russian escapees etc etc but I have faith that the boys at 2by3 will get it tweaked. In the meantime, I dont know about yall......but I am sure enjoying the game even as it is so far. If it never got touched I would still play this game for years. I just am thinking how great this will be when it DOES get tweaked. I hate to use the term "fixed" cuz that implies its not functional as is. It definitely is. Just needs a lil refinement. Anyway....thats my 2 cents worth. <Jim gets off his soapbox>



Grotius -> RE: Influence of OCS games like Case Blue? (1/6/2011 2:07:25 AM)

Hey Jim, thanks for your comment. Good points, but one quibble -- I'm pretty sure Case Blue is 5 miles per hex, which puts it in the same ballpark as WiTE. I might be wrong, though.



jimkehn -> RE: Influence of OCS games like Case Blue? (1/6/2011 2:16:14 AM)

OK sir if it is then I stand corrected. I didnt dig out the rulebook to see what the scale is but it might be. ANd maybe Case Blau is at a diff scale than EatG and DAK and the rest. But yeh, man those were the ultimate games for my taste. FInally someone combined realistic, slick game play with gorgeous graphics. Maybe some day....in wargamer heaven, Grotius.....we can sit down to a match of Case Blau. Playin that scenario in WITE right now as the Russians. It has been wayy fun. One turn to go. Think I will get a victory on Normal but not sure how high of one. I wasnt all that agressive but was pleased with the way the German AI handled himself. Probly not as good as a human woulda....but pretty dam good for a computer AI.



Grotius -> RE: Influence of OCS games like Case Blue? (1/6/2011 4:25:29 AM)

I agree about the AI -- pretty impressive for a wargame as complicated as this. I'm winning in my campaign game as the Sovs, but the Germans have advanced to the gates of Moscow and Leningrad, just as I hoped they would.

Man, I'd love to play Case Blue some day, maybe even before Wargaming Heaven, lol. The screenshot in my first post is mouth-watering -- all that yummy detail on the units and the map.



Blind Sniper -> RE: Influence of OCS games like Case Blue? (1/6/2011 12:12:41 PM)

quote:

Their map is certainly attractive . . .


The maps are very very good.

quote:

I suppose I shouldn't be surprised; most wargamers I know also have switched to PC games. I myself stopped playing board games in the 80s, but I resumed the hobby about a decade ago.


Good choice, some board wargames are still very funny, moreover you can talk about your hobby drinking a beer [:)]

quote:

Anyway, I'm glad to see there are some other OCS gamers here in the forum, in any case. :)


+1

quote:

Man, I'd love to play Case Blue some day, maybe even before Wargaming Heaven, lol.


I played only the small scenarios and they are very good but I believe that I won't play the big ones.
The game with these supply rules becames pretty boring and slow especially when you have tons of units. This is a perfect task for a computer not for a human [:'(]
Moreover I don't like how the combat system is handle.
Anyhow I think it is a great game but only with few units involved (e.g. Tunisia is perfect).

Back to the topic, I think that all programmers have been influenced by old board wargames maybe indirectly (about this kind of games of course).
WitE is really awesome, I'm spending a lot of hours playing it [:)]
When the game will be improved (especially airwar) I believe will became the best pc game so far (better than WitP IMHO).



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