Encirclement Tips (Full Version)

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Krieg -> Encirclement Tips (1/8/2011 8:49:35 PM)

I was wondering if someone could provide some tips on succesfully encircleing Soviet Forces?

It may be a hold over from my days playing the panzer campaign series but i have tried numerous times to form pockets to eliminate Soviet units with all the tactics I know to use (using ZOC, blocking clear terrain and leaving MP consuming terrain open, keep pressure with Inf while mobile forces manuever around). I attempt to block rails and road points and I have even at times completely encircled a hex with a stack of units. Each time and every technique I try the units rout outside of the pocket and I get very few units eliminated. What am I doing wrong?

Reading other posts I think I might be putting to much pressure on units that "pushes" them out of the pocket, but I do not know how not to stop that, any help would be appreciated.




CarnageINC -> RE: Encirclement Tips (1/8/2011 9:09:00 PM)

Are you attacking them after encirclement on the turn you do the encirclement?  You must wait until the next turn before attacking units that are in the pocket.  So first turn encircle, next turn destroy....rinse and repeat as much as you can [:D]

Did that answer your question?



heliodorus04 -> RE: Encirclement Tips (1/8/2011 9:35:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: CarnageINC

Are you attacking them after encirclement on the turn you do the encirclement?  You must wait until the next turn before attacking units that are in the pocket.  So first turn encircle, next turn destroy....rinse and repeat as much as you can [:D]

Did that answer your question?


+1
First you encircle - this changes nothing on the turn that you do it, because during the prior soviet turn, they drew supply.
End turn
When the Soviet turn starts, encircled units cannot draw supply, and suffer all sorts of "Oh-my-god-what-do-we-do-now?" penalties. You will almost always see them TRY to evacuate to friendly-supplied hexes.
End Soviet turn
NOW they are "isolated" and it takes very little to get them to Surrender (which nets about 98% of combat personnel as casualties).

On that 2nd turn, ensure:
You set your Air Doctrines "percent to fly mission" HIGH so that you don't waste planes flying to missions where they're not needed.

You cut off whatever means of retreat to Soviet-held hexes (even those within encircled pockets) your combat opponent has, and where you can't take them, ensure you have a ZOC into them.

Experiment using minimal combat power, and hasty attacks. I've seen Axis regiments take soviet corps once isolated (I've seen that fail, too, mind you).

If you're attacking a unit on the turn you surround it (i.e., it's not yet isolated), you end up with a lot of Route results, which aren't BAD, but it means a lot of combat power can escape back to a manpower pool and be used in a variety of ways still.



Krieg -> RE: Encirclement Tips (1/8/2011 9:45:11 PM)

I will give that a shot. What I had been doing to date (unsuccessfully) is to:

Turn 1 (in this order):
- Create a breakthrough in the defense line wiht Inf.
- move manuever units thruough the gap and into position behind the soviet forces.
- use the rest of the Inf units on line to attack across the front and push fwd
( My thought was that any units that broke or ran would have the MP hindered by the mobile units in the rear and therefore they would not be able to escape on turn 1)


Turn 2 (in this order):
- Move available Inf units which are in postion to relieve the mobile forces on the Eastern edge of the pocket for follow-on movement (thereby maintaining the pocket)
- Use Inf on the line to continue to close the pocket and eliminate Soviet Forces.
- Mobile units continue East (Mot Inf remaining as needed to clean up pocket stragglers which the Inf in step 2 could not contain)

Repeat as I identify other encirclement opportunities.

My first attempt was on the 10 turn Smolensk scenario and at first I was conservative and moved East (with the mobile units) only when I had the pockets sealed (did not begin attacking on the front line till turn 3-4), but found I was stuck no further East then Minsk by turn 8 (needless to say 400K plus dead Soviets and only 18K Ger but still had a maj defeat) so that did not work. I then tried the above tactic but find the Soviets escape or rout out every time and I cant seem to close and eliminate them.

Now I am trying to be more agressive with the untis and adopt an "every turn counts" attitiude and therefore did not want to wait till turn 2 to being eliminating the pocket. I was hoping to complete it in one turn. I guess that wont work based on the posts I have been reading.



2ndACR -> RE: Encirclement Tips (1/8/2011 10:33:35 PM)

You can go for a complete pocket which is surrounded on all sides or do a sweeping pocket that chops off supply. I use a lot of deep sweeping pockets. I do not capture 100% of units, but about 90% when they surrender. See my AAR for a look at how I create pockets that way. They have to be pretty deep or the AI will move back and re-establish supply.

Sweeping pockets still require you to wait till next turn to begin killing those units. Turn 3 or so I am on the Dneper with my Armor and usually by turn 6 or 7 everyone is on the line.



henri51 -> RE: Encirclement Tips (1/9/2011 3:33:04 PM)

Problem is that everyone says on turn one to encircle, but no one EVER describes what that means: does it mean 1) encircle them with zones of control (units two hexes apart)? 2)doubled zones of control (units one hex apart)? or 3) every damm hex in the circle occupied by a unit?, in which case it means breaking down units into battalions in most cases.

So far I have been encircling with (1) , and except on the first move, the Russians ALWAYS break out most or all of their units from the pockets.

Even assuming that (1) or (2) encircles the enemy, it seems that all they have to do (correct me if wrong) is stick a unit from outside the pocket into one of the zones of control to create a path out of the pocket. And I suspect that this is not even necessary, given that "ownership" of the hex does not change until after the Soviets move.

This is all very confusing to me...[&:]

Henri



ComradeP -> RE: Encirclement Tips (1/9/2011 3:51:46 PM)

A good encirclement is one where, either through placement of units between the pocket and the possible relieving forces, or hexes you control between the pocket and the relieving force, no contact can be made between enemy forces inside and(/or hexes) outside the pocket. The first approach requires more units, and it can be risky if you have to split units up. For the first turn, I mostly use the second approach.

Generally speaking, the more enemy units are in an area outside of the pocket you want to create, the more units you will need to close a pocket in a way that will prevent the enemy from relieving it. If there are few enemy units, you can rely more on having hexes you control between those units and the pocketed forces, which in turn requires fewer units.



bairdlander2 -> RE: Encirclement Tips (1/9/2011 4:00:51 PM)

Here is screen shot,the x's are pending zoc,as can be seen the unit is pocketed,has little mp's and I will attack once pending becomes zoc,otherwise it might escape,correction those units cant escape,they could retreat withen the zone

[image]local://upfiles/31566/A92EDECCCAFE4C7AB766713415121E6F.jpg[/image]



bairdlander2 -> RE: Encirclement Tips (1/9/2011 4:13:18 PM)

Here is better example,if I attacked those units inside Minsk pocket,they would likely route out,light green is pending zoc,so I will wait till next turn,as can be seen,units I did attack routed

[image]local://upfiles/31566/223E7A8FA3B94FABADC8D618F421AE26.jpg[/image]



Zovs -> RE: Encirclement Tips (1/9/2011 4:39:03 PM)

In both screen shots there are gaps in the 'pocket's' and the AI can easily escape.

If you want to better under stand this, turn off the AI turn for a 'test' set the game to normal and do your first turn, make your 'pockets' you think are 'pockets' and then end your turn. Now as the Soviet player look at your map and see how to escape.

Rinse, repeat and improve your pocket forming techniques for the first turn several times over to get a better understanding of it.

Once you do, flip it back to AI and Challenging or Hard and try again.



bairdlander2 -> RE: Encirclement Tips (1/9/2011 4:48:38 PM)

Yes the 2nd screenshots are "pending" zoc's,as I said,if I attacked the units would rout as some did,so I will wait untill next turn.As can be seen the units I did attack routed.What Im finding though is when I create a pocket of pending zoc's the ai usually creates exits.



bairdlander2 -> RE: Encirclement Tips (1/9/2011 4:51:55 PM)

Where are the "gaps" in the first screenshot?Im talking about the 2 1-1 SU units.They cant escape,the only place they could go would be retreat to their own zoc withen the pocket.



Zovs -> RE: Encirclement Tips (1/9/2011 4:59:31 PM)

Where the Soviet TD and RD are in the pocket the eastern RD can move at least one hex east and theoretically the units west of Rovno can plug the gap before ending their turn so that the pocket is not closed.



bairdlander2 -> RE: Encirclement Tips (1/9/2011 5:04:15 PM)

So how wide in hexes should the surrounding hexes be around the pocket?You are saying the 3-3 Su unit moved 1 hex north the pocket would be open?



bairdlander2 -> RE: Encirclement Tips (1/9/2011 5:17:46 PM)

Next turn start

[image]local://upfiles/31566/7C375438327E4E8E81E68E46B5F30A82.jpg[/image]



bairdlander2 -> RE: Encirclement Tips (1/9/2011 5:20:56 PM)

And the other

[image]local://upfiles/31566/F69170F11BDB4670AE78069239AE10C7.jpg[/image]



gradenko2k -> RE: Encirclement Tips (1/9/2011 5:25:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bairdlander
So how wide in hexes should the surrounding hexes be around the pocket?You are saying the 3-3 Su unit moved 1 hex north the pocket would be open?

In general, you're going to want a unit in every other hex to prevent the enemy from "breaking" your ZOC circle on the inter-turn.

You may need more if there's a lot of potential enemy intervention in the non-pocketed areas, or less if you can cast a "wide" enough ZOC coverage that the enemy wouldn't be able to walk out of.



bairdlander2 -> RE: Encirclement Tips (1/9/2011 5:35:22 PM)

Wrong shot,here is other

[image]local://upfiles/31566/CF7126A3CCF946C597445879B2B76908.jpg[/image]



ComradeP -> RE: Encirclement Tips (1/9/2011 6:50:31 PM)

quote:

So how wide in hexes should the surrounding hexes be around the pocket?You are saying the 3-3 Su unit moved 1 hex north the pocket would be open?


Considering that units can always move 1 hex: preferably at least 3 hexes, all in your ZOC.



henri51 -> RE: Encirclement Tips (1/10/2011 2:00:42 PM)

Hehe...considering the confusion of this "explanation", I think there is a need for a tutorial explaining encirclements with examples of good and bad cases and general rules. Trying out our own encirclements by playing both sides is not a bad idea, but this could apply to any part of the game.

Part of the problem is that some of the play is under the hood, for example I don't know exactly at what point the ownership of the hex changes and whether it is the same for the Soviets and for the Germans. I would guess that it is at the beginning of the next move IF it is pending for the side that did not own it, but immediately for the side that did own it. Soif I capture a hex, it becomes pending until the start of my next move, but immediately reverts to Soviet ownership if the Soviets move adjacent to it?

Another example: suppose that I leave one hex between the encircling units; if the Soviets move a unit from outside the pocket between two of my units to a hex that is pending for the Germans, does it immediately become a Soviet-owned hex and the pocketed units can run right through it? If so, how many mp will they pay since the hex is in 2 German ZOCs and one Soviet ZOC, but the hex is Soviet-owned?

I am still as confused as ever...[&:]

Henri



FredSanford3 -> RE: Encirclement Tips (1/10/2011 3:11:01 PM)

Lots of depth with regard to the 'pending' friendly (green) ZOC hexes helps. If you only have a single row of pending hexes, due to nearby enemy units, then that's probably too thin.



Zovs -> RE: Encirclement Tips (1/10/2011 3:16:25 PM)

All answers directly from the manual in normal print.

quote:

I don't know exactly at what point the ownership of the hex changes?

Hexes are either friendly (controlled by the phasing player), enemy (controlled by the non-phasing player), or pending friendly, which are hexes that have been taken during the current turn and will switch ownership at the end of the phasing players turn.

quote:

Is it the same for the Soviets and for the Germans?

Yes.

quote:

So if I capture a hex, it becomes pending until the start of my next move


All combat units convert the hex they enter as they move into a pending friendly hex. Division and Corps sized combat units convert the hex they enter, and any unoccupied adjacent hexes in their ZOC unless the unoccupied hex is also in the ZOC of an enemy combat unit.

quote:

Another example: suppose that I leave one hex between the encircling units; if the Soviets move a unit from outside the pocket between two of my units to a hex that is pending for the Germans, does it immediately become a Soviet-owned hex and the pocketed units can run right through it? If so, how many mp will they pay since the hex is in 2 German ZOCs and one Soviet ZOC, but the hex is Soviet-owned?


See above. But essentially per your example yes to the pocket question on hex control. For the MP costs this varies, it depends on the unit type, morale and its' base MP calculations.

Essentially if you have say a morale of 50 it would cost 9 MP to enter an enemy hex (except for cavalry which is one less or 8 MP). If you have a 80 morale unit it would only cost 7 MP (if cavalry it would cost 6). If the hex was friendly controlled at the start of your turn then it would be one less or in the above examples, 8 (7) and 6 (5).



Commanderski -> RE: Encirclement Tips (1/10/2011 5:59:03 PM)

quote:

Another example: suppose that I leave one hex between the encircling units; if the Soviets move a unit from outside the pocket between two of my units to a hex that is pending for the Germans, does it immediately become a Soviet-owned hex and the pocketed units can run right through it? If so, how many mp will they pay since the hex is in 2 German ZOCs and one Soviet ZOC, but the hex is Soviet-owned?


I think it depends on the scenario and the amount of enemy troops in the area. I'm playing Operation Typhoon and encircled over 30 divisions and about a half dozen tank Brigades near Vyazma. I left every other hex open on the Eastern side. After the turn I saw they were definitely cut off and isolated. I thought I would be smart and wait another turn before I attacked to finish them off and was also wondering why they weren't trying to break out. The next turn I got my answer. Several relief columns came through my open hexes and encircled most of the 4th Panzer Group, one really masive, and I spent the next 4 turns trying to save them, which I eventually did. The AI is really tough in the mud.

While farther South I have about a half dozen divisions cut off but there weren't any large forces in the area and I was able to eliminate them without any attempts of a break in or out.



henri51 -> RE: Encirclement Tips (1/10/2011 9:03:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: dlazov66

quote:

Another example: suppose that I leave one hex between the encircling units; if the Soviets move a unit from outside the pocket between two of my units to a hex that is pending for the Germans, does it immediately become a Soviet-owned hex and the pocketed units can run right through it? If so, how many mp will they pay since the hex is in 2 German ZOCs and one Soviet ZOC, but the hex is Soviet-owned?


See above. But essentially per your example yes to the pocket question on hex control. For the MP costs this varies, it depends on the unit type, morale and its' base MP calculations.



This looks like a contradiction. According to the manual you quoted, the pending hex becomes owned by the phasing player at the end of his turn, so in my example, the hex (assuming it is not in an enemy ZOC) would become mine at the end of my turn. Then when the |soviet unit moves into it on his turn, it becomes pending for him, but will not revert to Soviet control until the end of turn, so it could not help enemy units to escape until the next Soviet turn. So contrary to your response quoted here, the hex would NOT revert to the enemy until the end of his turn, and therefore pocketed enemy units should not be able to run through it during the enemy turn without paying the high cost for entering and leaving an enemy-owned hex. [&:]

Henri



Zovs -> RE: Encirclement Tips (1/10/2011 9:28:00 PM)

No contradiction, remember all units can move 1 hex no matter what. Once a unit is in a hex it gains ownership, then if the other units have enough MP (from either side of a pocket) then can slip into/out of that hex, finally when that Soviet player ends his turn their is no longer any pocket and supply is not hampered as bad as it could have been.

Think of it this way, a division (or Soviet Corps) gains control of the hex it occupies and any in it's ZOC, not occupied by enemy units. Now with that said go back to post 18 and look at the gap, one hex not controlled and one hex controlled. If the Soviet RD moves one hex west (probably all the MP he would have) and if a Soviet unit could move into that town hex on the east side of the Berezina then no pocket has been formed by the Axis.



bairdlander2 -> RE: Encirclement Tips (1/10/2011 9:35:57 PM)

But wouldnt those hexes become "pending zoc's" for SU?Your saying if they moved into the Axis zoc?



Zovs -> RE: Encirclement Tips (1/10/2011 9:55:43 PM)

If a unit moves into a hex it owns it regardless of hex ownership previously. A hex occupied is owned by the occupier. Empty hexes are a different story.



bairdlander2 -> RE: Encirclement Tips (1/10/2011 10:31:09 PM)

In the example you mean from my screenshot post 18,the SU unit 1-1 west of Brezina river,I dont think that unit has mp's to move 1 hex east as the 2 axis units are exerting zoc movement costs on that hex?



Zovs -> RE: Encirclement Tips (1/10/2011 10:50:23 PM)

Again, all units can move 1 hex. From the manual:

Units that have not moved can always move at least one hex, even if it costs more than their MPs. To make this minimum move, the unit must be the only unit selected.



henri51 -> RE: Encirclement Tips (1/10/2011 11:26:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dlazov66

If a unit moves into a hex it owns it regardless of hex ownership previously. A hex occupied is owned by the occupier. Empty hexes are a different story.


Previously you quoted the manual: "All combat units convert the hex they enter as they move into a PENDING friendly hex". And you said that a pending friendly hex only converts to ownership at the end of the phasing player move. Now you are saying that it becomes friendly to the phasing player IMMEDIATELY. Now i am more confused than ever...[&:]

To go back to my previous question: during an encirclement, two German infantry units leave one hex empty between them, none of the hexes in question being in a Soviet ZOC. From the manual quotation, I understand that this hex becomes German-owned at the end of the German move. During the Soviet move,a soviet unit from outside the pocket moves into the empty hex. According to the manual you quoted, this hex becomes a PENDING Soviet hex during the Soviet move, and therefore remains a German-owned hex for the duration of the Soviet move.

If this is true, the presence of the Soviet unit in no way helps Soviet units to escape during the same move.So a Soviet unit trying to escape fromthe pocket would have to pay the movement cost of entering a German-owned hex in a German ZOC, pay the same for entering the German-owned hex between the 2 German units, pay the same cost a third time to move out of the pocket into a German ZOC, then finally pay the cost of leaving an enemy ZOC.Clearly no early Soviet units would have the MPs to escape a pocket this way, so what am I missing? [&:][&:]

I suspect that what happens is that the hexes in question only become German-owned at the end of the SOVIET move, which contradicts the manual statement that it changes ownership at the end of the phasing player's move.

Henri



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