RE: Wargaming Doomed? (Full Version)

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Lützow -> RE: Wargaming Doomed? (1/13/2011 7:26:56 PM)

Here is another doomsayer.
http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2011/01/11/pc-is-dead-ces-tablets-smartphone/

Did you know the PC is dead?



TonyE -> RE: Wargaming Doomed? (1/13/2011 7:38:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sterckxe


When I went to wargame conventions in my thirties, there was nothing but guys just slightly older than I was

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx



Where do I find these "wargame conventions"? I went to Origins one year but it would be a far stretch to call it a wargame convention. Though it was great to meet the guys from Matrix and Larry Bond [:)]



Jeffrey H. -> RE: Wargaming Doomed? (1/13/2011 7:47:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sterckxe

quote:

ORIGINAL: Les_the_Sarge_9_1
Wargaming still has a few years in it left guys.


When I went to wargame conventions as a teenager, there was nothing but really old 40+ geezers.

When I went to wargame conventions in my twenties, there was nothing but 40-year old mature guys

When I went to wargame conventions in my thirties, there was nothing but guys just slightly older than I was

When I go to a wargame convention these days, *everyone* is my age

Here's my prediction : when I go to a wargame convention in 30 years time, it'll be filled with 40-year old kids

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx




Most conventions I attended back in the late 1970's/early 1980's were being overwhelmed with D&D. Then later it started to be Axis and Allies all the kids were playing. Then and to some extent still, there were hordes of kids playing that dumb @ssed card game, Magic the Gathering. (Said exactly like a rotten old man says things about 'these kids today').

Then it was Warhammer 40k. Then came console games, which really appeal to a different crowd but still have some of the same elements we see in our end of the hobby.

Some of those kids are going to crossover to the more serious and involved stuff, most are not.

The hobby is still open at the lower end and I'd say thriving, especially when you consider console games.








Fallschirmjager -> RE: Wargaming Doomed? (1/13/2011 9:06:22 PM)

Boardgaming may be non existent among young people but strategy games are not. I went to a fairly large public university but we had several tabletop gaming groups that were very active.
I was never a hardcore D&D player but I did play some. I was very active in Warhammer 40k and Battlefleet Gothic.

They were active enough that you could get together and build/paint or play any night of the week that you wanted. There were also enough players that even the lesser known armies would have scores of players.

Those games are every bit as detailed and board wargames. Just require different tastes.



Lützow -> RE: Wargaming Doomed? (1/13/2011 9:20:58 PM)

In my opinion D&D is still easier to grasp than WiF.



Lützow -> RE: Wargaming Doomed? (1/13/2011 10:17:53 PM)

Here is another article about the future of simulations.
http://www.simhq.com/_commentary/all_106a.html



ilovestrategy -> RE: Wargaming Doomed? (1/13/2011 11:05:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: E


quote:

ORIGINAL: Les_the_Sarge_9_1

There is little incentive to re invent War in the Pacific.


And yet Grigsby keeps doing it.. from his War in the South Pacific, to his Pacifc War, to his War in the Pacific.


And Bethesda has made Daggerfall, Morrowind and Oblivion with another Elder Scrolls game coming this Fall. They are all the same and they still have a large fan base.



E -> RE: Wargaming Doomed? (1/13/2011 11:46:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Les_the_Sarge_9_1
quote:

ORIGINAL: E
quote:

ORIGINAL: Les_the_Sarge_9_1
There is little incentive to re invent War in the Pacific.

And yet Grigsby keeps doing it.. from his War in the South Pacific, to his Pacifc War, to his War in the Pacific.


In the context of my comment, they are all the same game, same developer and only divided by evolution of the game, which is still the same game to some extent.


Tomatoe, Tomahto. Should I throw in Grigsby's Guadalcanal Campaign and his Carrier Strike? My point is that he keeps doing the theater/game. Although I can understand your point of view on them being the same game. In one essence they are. In another they are not (although I do not kid myself into believing he re-researched all the unit data for each game *grin*). Now your point about aging and where that leads is sadly right on the money.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Les_the_Sarge_9_1
The only real difference between Watchtower, WitP and WitP AE is one has more layers added on to it. I consider it all the same game. Pacific War is the same game as WitP in the same way Squad Leader and ASL are the same game.


Now I never got into ASL, but I know that it is not the same as SL. One is apparently a way of life, while the other is a dying game. *grin*

But let's be honest and put this all in perspective... how many of you* could play every board and pc wargame you own, before you die? And if you did run out, did you like any enough to play them a second time? And after you've worn yourself out from all the wargames you have, can you still get someone to wheel your chair to the gaming table? Can you still see the gaming table? And do you even realize the game on it is not dinner with a cardboard taste? Do you know your grandchildren and/or their children's names? *grin*

* -I know there is at least one younger one here, but he doesn't seem to play board wargames.

However, if you really want to get some new blood in the board wargaming industry, think "power outages." ...Long ones. *grin*



SLAAKMAN -> RE: Wargaming Doomed? (1/14/2011 12:10:39 AM)

quote:

In my opinion D&D is still easier to grasp than WiF.

Welcome to my Dojo little fly! [:D]



NefariousKoel -> RE: Wargaming Doomed? (1/14/2011 4:50:52 AM)

I'd just like to take this time to tha....


DOOOOOMMM!!!!111

The End Is Nigh!!!


[:'(]



sterckxe -> RE: Wargaming Doomed? (1/14/2011 8:41:23 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TonyE
Where do I find these "wargame conventions"? I went to Origins one year but it would be a far stretch to call it a wargame convention. Though it was great to meet the guys from Matrix and Larry Bond [:)]


In the US or in Europe ?

In the US there's Historicon - 4 days, 4000 wargamers and numerous smaller conventions - buy an issue of Wargames Illustrated to get all the places and dates or go to their website.

In Britain there's a wargame convention almost every week - no kidding - and even over here in Flanders there are 3 rather well attended ones with the top one, Crisis in Antwerp, getting 1500 wargamers - and growing. Over the years I went to over 10 of those conventions to demo Matrix games so I think I've got a good feel for how lively the wargame scene is.

Even a regular gaming convention like Spiel in Essen has a solid wargame component and the guys from Slitherine/Matrix were there manning a booth last year.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx



sterckxe -> RE: Wargaming Doomed? (1/14/2011 10:13:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7
Yep, you seem to have hit on the thing that keeps wargaming alive...we don't get new young blood, we get new mature players. It's almost as if we are programmed to look for more depth out of our games the older we get.


Yup - and selling to that 40+ niche is actually an excellent niche to sell to from a company's pov. Kids are grown up, the mortgage is paid off, the career has advanced up to a point where money is not an issue anymore. 40+ guys have money to spend on their favourite hobby, witness the killing Harley Davidson is making selling their bikes to this category.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx



Anthropoid -> RE: Wargaming Doomed? (1/14/2011 6:14:02 PM)

Wow, that is a nice list, Thanks sterckxe

quote:

ORIGINAL: sterckxe

quote:

ORIGINAL: Slick Wilhelm
Wargaming will not die, only the wargamers themselves will change. Right now it's our turn to support wargame developers, and we will eventually pass the baton down to the younger generation.


Another point I'd like to annoy doomsayers with - any guesses how many pc wargames got released last year ?

47

That's about one every week and also about 5 times the number of releases of 20 years ago.

Here's the 2010 list :

Panzer General Forever
HistWar : Les Grognards
Hearts of Iron II - Arsenal of Democracy
Napoleon : Total War
Silent Hunter V
Panzer Campaigns - Sealion
Naval Campaigns - Midway
Strategic Command 2 - Global Conflict
Field of Glory - Rise of Rome
Achtung Panzer : Kharkov 1943
Theatre of War 2 - Kursk 1943
Rise of Prussia - Frederick the Great
Us and Them
Scourge of War : Gettysburg
Across the Dnepr - Second Edition
Field of Glory - Storm of Arrows
Ancient Warfare Series - Greek Wars
World War One - Gold edition
Ironclads : Schleswig War 1864
Day of the Spears II
Battles from the Bulge
First world War Campaigns - France '14
Squad Battles - Red Victory
Hearts of Iron III - Semper Fi expansion
Storm over the Pacific
WWII (outflankstrategywargames.com)
Making History 2 - The War of the World
Close Combat : Last Stand at Arnhem
Field of Glory - Immortal Fire
Hegemony : Philip of Macedon
PGX3 - European Theatre of Operations
BBC Battlefield Academy
Decisive Campaigns: The Blitzkrieg from Warsaw to Paris
Combat Mission : Afghanistan
Hannibal : Rome and Carthage
Ironclads: Chincha island war 1866
Theatre of War 2 - Battle for Caean expansion
Middle East 1948-2006
Revolution under Siege
World Supremacy
PT Boats : South Gambit
Theatre of War 2 - Battle for Caean expansion
Fields of Glory: Swords and Scimitars
Panzer Campaigns : Kharkov '43
Gary Grigsby's War in the East
Battlefield Academy - Blitzkrieg France
Squad Battles - Modern War

Wargames are doomed - my rear lower backside.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx





Obsolete -> RE: Wargaming Doomed? (1/14/2011 6:42:00 PM)

quote:


That's about one every week and also about 5 times the number of releases of 20 years ago.


20 years ago, the number of computer gamers may have been much smaller than 1/5 though?




Zakhal -> RE: Wargaming Doomed? (1/14/2011 6:47:41 PM)

There are wargamers and boargamers in my town. They just dont make lots of noise about their hobby. You kinda have to look for them to find them. But if you do youll bump into them eventually. 



Jeffrey H. -> RE: Wargaming Doomed? (1/14/2011 7:38:13 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sterckxe

quote:

ORIGINAL: TonyE
Where do I find these "wargame conventions"? I went to Origins one year but it would be a far stretch to call it a wargame convention. Though it was great to meet the guys from Matrix and Larry Bond [:)]


In the US or in Europe ?

In the US there's Historicon - 4 days, 4000 wargamers and numerous smaller conventions - buy an issue of Wargames Illustrated to get all the places and dates or go to their website.

In Britain there's a wargame convention almost every week - no kidding - and even over here in Flanders there are 3 rather well attended ones with the top one, Crisis in Antwerp, getting 1500 wargamers - and growing. Over the years I went to over 10 of those conventions to demo Matrix games so I think I've got a good feel for how lively the wargame scene is.

Even a regular gaming convention like Spiel in Essen has a solid wargame component and the guys from Slitherine/Matrix were there manning a booth last year.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx



And don't forget CONSIMWORLD, although it does tend to reenforce the OP about 'dying hobby'.




sterckxe -> RE: Wargaming Doomed? (1/14/2011 10:30:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zakhal
There are wargamers and boargamers in my town. They just dont make lots of noise about their hobby. You kinda have to look for them to find them. But if you do youll bump into them eventually. 


There's this guy at work who's been there about 5 years. A couple of times a week we have work-related contact, did a major project with him etc. so I thought I knew him pretty well. Only last month I found out he was an RPG'er. I dunno, but sometimes I think that gamers don't go advertizing their hobby like sports fans do, but maybe they should - wear a Matrix Games T-shirt on casual friday like the sports guys or something like that

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx




Yogi the Great -> RE: Wargaming Doomed? (1/14/2011 10:40:03 PM)

Maybe because sometimes when we tell someone we play war/strategy games they give us a strange look.

Do they think we're crazy? [&:]

Or is it we really are crazy? [X(]



sterckxe -> RE: Wargaming Doomed? (1/14/2011 10:49:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yogi the Great

Maybe because sometimes when we tell someone we play war/strategy games they give us a strange look.

Do they think we're crazy? [&:]

Or is it we really are crazy? [X(]


I give people who get up at 4 am to go fishing that same look - doesn't stop them from gushing about their hobby ...

Might be the games == kiddie activity == not for grownups thing

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx




KG Erwin -> RE: Wargaming Doomed? (1/14/2011 10:53:45 PM)

Ah, wargaming IS a peculiar hobby, but I've been playing them for over 40 years, and if anyone regards me as eccentric, then so be it. [;)]



bairdlander2 -> RE: Wargaming Doomed? (1/14/2011 11:12:09 PM)

The reply I get is is "Oh,wargames?You mean like Starcraft?"[&:]



Anthropoid -> RE: Wargaming Doomed? (1/15/2011 12:48:32 AM)

I've come to think of gaming and surfing as (sort of) like reading. Granted, it does not involve the wholesale consumption of sentences and presumably of information as does reading, but it involves concentration and active mental adaptation. In fact, it probably involves those more than reading does in many instances. Its sort of like the neurobiological equivalent of weight lifting for brain addicts. My wife calls it mental masturbation, and maybe it is that to a certain extent, but I also think it is a form of meditation and mental training.



Yogi the Great -> RE: Wargaming Doomed? (1/15/2011 12:57:42 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid

My wife calls it mental masturbation,


Well, I suppose that explains why once you start, you just can't stop.



Anthropoid -> RE: Wargaming Doomed? (1/15/2011 1:01:16 AM)

Damn! My arm is sore . . .



junk2drive -> RE: Wargaming Doomed? (1/15/2011 1:13:53 AM)

When people ask casually what I do with my free time or what is my hobby, I tell them I play games on my computer. If they ask for more I tell them wargames. If they don't get it or think of FPS games, I tell them it is more like chess, moving pieces around and stuff.



stuman -> RE: Wargaming Doomed? (1/15/2011 1:22:29 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

Ah, wargaming IS a peculiar hobby, but I've been playing them for over 40 years, and if anyone regards me as eccentric, then so be it. [;)]



+1



ilovestrategy -> RE: Wargaming Doomed? (1/15/2011 10:18:37 AM)

You know, we need to invite the spam bots over to this thread to see what THEY think of the doom of wargaming. They are part of the community too! [:D]



warspite1 -> RE: Wargaming Doomed? (1/15/2011 12:17:13 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: stuman


quote:

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

Ah, wargaming IS a peculiar hobby, but I've been playing them for over 40 years, and if anyone regards me as eccentric, then so be it. [;)]



+1
Warspite1

+ 1

I've always taken the view that I should not be ashamed of my hobby. Since I was at school, and then all through my working life I have always proudly told anyone that would listen (even after they started edging away from me) that I was a wargamer.

Now thirty years on, as I sit here in my basement, playing with my favourite toy soldiers while listening to We'll Meet Again by Vera Lynn, I am still proud of the fact that I am a wargamer. I may be alone and childless, I may have no real friends, but hey, I am proud of what I am.

Mother, she's just a stranger. She's hungry, and it's raining out!



Yogi the Great -> RE: Wargaming Doomed? (1/15/2011 1:25:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

I may be alone and childless, I may have no real friends, but hey, I am proud of what I am.



Welcome to the wargamers group therapy sessions we call discussion forums.



Anthropoid -> RE: Wargaming Doomed? (1/15/2011 3:07:32 PM)

I love children . . . baked, boiled and fried.



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