A difficult choice (Full Version)

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madgamer2 -> A difficult choice (1/18/2011 10:25:24 PM)

I had no idea my innocent post on the weather thing would create such a lively discussion. One that I hope the developers will listen to at lest in part.I think that for me as much as i love much of this game there is just enough of things that are missing from other games Bu Gary.
I don't like the attempted hardcore approach that prevails in this game, perhaps much more than his other games, but it lacks what ifs, and not much the player can adjust for himself. It sounds like even if you took your troops back to Poland before the blizzard the loss of something like over a million men after 12 turns of Blizzard(like 3 months(?) of real. time just does not seem real.
The amount of information you know both about your side and the other side is not real. There is no way that that much information should be available. The games lacks that kind of free swinging go for broke attitude because ..get ready here comes that Blizzard. You know there was just as much chance that winter would not have happened when it did or be as bad as it was.
The game tries to be Historical and if players play the way the original battle went the result should be close to the same. If that is what you want then there are many other things brought out that should be hard coded than just that darn blizzard and a few(ANY?) other things/
I see the hard core doing the same to this game as with WitP and bringing out an even more difficult an micromanaged
game which we call go out and pay another 80-90 bucks for. I am not against games for the hard core but it is just as easy to put in some player controls for some of us who do not have the time to spend on games as difficult as this on server with another person.
it would have been possible to put in player controlled things to create a fun fast flowing but maybe (God forbid0 a game that does not reflect what happened at all. What is the sad thing for me is i scraped and scrimped for months to get the money to buy this game but I just can't do its just like not buying the AE game. Like AE a friend of mine will loan me his WitE after about a month or two and I can try it out.
You all can laugh and call me a wimp but I waited so long for this game and find myself almost in tears that It just does not feel right for me. I will wait to see it and how it develops and if I am lucky a chance to play it for a couple of weeks this summer when my friend is gone on vacation.

I do congratulate Gary Grigsby on a fine effort it just does not seem the one for me. So a refund is in progress as I type this as there was a total screw up on the download order(partly my fault) the game gets here around the 21-25
of this month it will be hard to return but I will... for now. Except for a new version of this game I do not see anyone else attempting a game of this scale. Its kind of like I buy this one or none at all.

Madgamer2



Gandalf -> RE: A difficult choice (1/19/2011 12:44:42 AM)

Agree the game needs some "what if's" to greatly increase replayability. I'm keeping mine however, since eventually it will be enhanced just like WITP.



jomni -> RE: A difficult choice (1/19/2011 12:49:28 AM)

The Historical Purists will just whine and create house rules to prevent what-ifs.



Gandalf -> RE: A difficult choice (1/19/2011 12:52:57 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jomni

The Historical Purists will just whine and create house rules to prevent what-ifs.


I fail to see why optional "what-ifs" would have any impact on Grigsby's development as long as the default main game is already historical. This is done by most software developers to increase the appeal to player/gamers other than the small handful of purist/grognards.



madgamer2 -> RE: A difficult choice (1/19/2011 1:31:07 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gandalf

Agree the game needs some "what if's" to greatly increase replayability. I'm keeping mine however, since eventually it will be enhanced just like WITP.

i do not doubt what you say I fear it. I have my doubts about how "historical" it is but I think it will end up like the WitP/AE thing with a new more expensive version. I just feel that its not quite together and that certain "Historical" actions are being forced on the players. It is not like any of his other games in many ways. I will wait and watch...well that is what I say but when the UPS man gets here and the game is in my hands.....I honestly do not know what to do. Even though I have grave misgivings about some of the design features its really the only thing going for east front games. That is why I bought WitP and can't even keep up with the dumb AI. I am terrible as the Russians in any East front game but will I really send it back....stay tuned

Madgamer2



jay102 -> RE: A difficult choice (1/19/2011 3:34:40 AM)

For genuine hardcore historical simulation game, it dosen't bother to add a multiplayer function. There is no sense to play a human opponent when every phase of game is strictly designed to be "historical".



KenchiSulla -> RE: A difficult choice (1/19/2011 6:45:37 AM)

Is it so bad you want to return it? Your loss friend.....



EisenHammer -> RE: A difficult choice (1/19/2011 9:34:45 AM)

So what do you want us to do?
Talk you out of returning it?

So your going to return a game that you like, to prove a point.
If your going to do that then how can you say that you like the game?

I myself, think that this is the best operational wargame that I've ever played.
Its better than TOAW III and SSG K-DotD. And both of those games are some the best operational wargames you'll ever find anywhere. If you give up on WitE now, then I think you should just give up on wargaming period.



Muzrub -> RE: A difficult choice (1/19/2011 11:35:32 AM)

I can understand what your saying Madgamer.

The game, should be a game period and the pushing of this term 'historical simulation' is to myself very, very annoying- its almost a dogma around here.
Of course once the first move is made, the term 'historical simulation' goes straight out of the window and the player is left with a very rigid process.






raizer -> RE: A difficult choice (1/19/2011 1:47:07 PM)

not even having a 2-3 week weather variance option, is a fail in my view. I mean the weather every one plays with runs on the schedule of an atomic clock. It allows both sides to plan x because of w. And the weather, rightfully so, is such a force multiplier and to have this force multiplier run to such exactness is a mistake. The other option, of random weather, is just to much of an extreme in the other direction.
A middle ground, a 2-3 week weather variant based on historical weather would be ideal and provide just enough unknown to prevent either side from taking advantage of clockwork force multipliers-throw it off a week or two or maybe not Small what ifs would provide much tension in pbem games

[image]local://upfiles/36764/5CF2FEFFBD96470580B53A20BB398064.jpg[/image]



XAAL. -> RE: A difficult choice (1/19/2011 2:13:44 PM)

+1
I might add : right away stop playing games on PC because it seems that your problem comes from elsewhere....lol
Usually people return games when they are too buggy, or are crap. I think WITE doesnt deserve this....
Myself I really want to see more control on production but this feature is missing, I hardly see myself returning the game because of it [8|]

quote:

ORIGINAL: EisenHammer

If you give up on WitE now, then I think you should just give up on wargaming period.





Toby42 -> RE: A difficult choice (1/19/2011 2:57:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: XAAL.

+1
I might add : right away stop playing games on PC because it seems that your problem comes from elsewhere....lol
Usually people return games when they are too buggy, or are crap. I think WITE doesnt deserve this....
Myself I really want to see more control on production but this feature is missing, I hardly see myself returning the game because of it [8|]

quote:

ORIGINAL: EisenHammer

If you give up on WitE now, then I think you should just give up on wargaming period.





Now as for me, production doesn't interest me in the least. I want to replay the battle(s) in as close to historical mode as possible. My objective is to do better than the historical result....



MrLongleg -> RE: A difficult choice (1/19/2011 3:15:01 PM)

This game is a hardcore simulation of the German Russian war and I think it does a pretty good job of simulating it. Of course there are many points that need some adjustment - like the super hard blizzard rules etc.

But if you want to play what-ifs you have to look at other games like Advanced Tactics or even HOI 3. There you have full control of production, unit composition etc..



gradenko2k -> RE: A difficult choice (1/19/2011 3:16:15 PM)

quote:

The Historical Purists will just whine and create house rules to prevent what-ifs.


I actually don't get the point of trying to get the engine/mechanics to allow the historical scenario to be created, when we all know that the historical Soviet player played his side extremely badly.

I suppose one compromise would be to create more GC scenarios as snapshots of the war other than the ones we already have. K

ind of like how WITP had a December 8 start, we could maybe work on getting like a post-Kiev-pocket start, so we don't have to keep chasing the re-creation of the first turn pockets. Or how about a 1942 start earlier than just before Fall Blau?



bwheatley -> RE: A difficult choice (1/19/2011 3:40:13 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Muzrub

I can understand what your saying Madgamer.

The game, should be a game period and the pushing of this term 'historical simulation' is to myself very, very annoying- its almost a dogma around here.
Of course once the first move is made, the term 'historical simulation' goes straight out of the window and the player is left with a very rigid process.






+1



MengJiao -> RE: A difficult choice (1/19/2011 3:40:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: madgamer2

I had no idea my innocent post on the weather thing would create such a lively discussion. One that I hope the developers will listen to at lest in part.I think that for me as much as i love much of this game there is just enough of things that are missing from other games Bu Gary.
I don't like the attempted hardcore approach that prevails in this game, perhaps much more than his other games, but it lacks what ifs, and not much the player can adjust for himself. It sounds like even if you took your troops back to Poland before the blizzard the loss of something like over a million men after 12 turns of Blizzard(like 3 months(?) of real. time just does not seem real.


You could try playing the Soviets.



karonagames -> RE: A difficult choice (1/19/2011 4:12:49 PM)

Or the 1943 campaign - it is a hell of a lot of fun.



molchomor -> RE: A difficult choice (1/19/2011 4:23:50 PM)

+1 for optional production control for added "what-if" replayability. This game has added a lot of micromanagement on stuff like railroad conversion, fortification, garrisoning, army restructuring and hierarchy, supply etc., and why not, can be fun to play around with now and then.

Let me just say that I believe more people (aka customers) are fascinated by and wanting to micromanage WW2 hardware than that stuff ! Heck, even the big dictators had their nose deep into production decisions (at least the moustache guy) so why can't we?




Jakerson -> RE: A difficult choice (1/19/2011 10:40:00 PM)

I play these games as it is fact is that Germans had no winter clothes or proper number of snow blowing engines to keep roads open in snow storm and most of the German troops had no skills, training or experience to fight in the winter conditions. Result was that at least 10% of their whole men power died because of this just in the first winter. Germans had no same skill level than Soviet to fight in the winter conditions and this is what really needs to be simulated some way.

If you break the historical accuracy by giving Germans same level of skill for winter combat then you have to give Soviet something too. Like better Soviet generals (maybe they never purged most of generals just before the war) and maybe Soviet had better trained army and better starting experience and moral.

Maybe Soviet deployed majority of their air force out of reach of Luftwaffe surprise attack witch allowed German to destroy majority of Soviet air planes at turn one.





Aurelian -> RE: A difficult choice (1/19/2011 11:17:53 PM)

There was a long thread about why there is no production.

This is my own take.

German production, like Allied production in WitP, would make no sense, as both have fronts that are not in the game to deal with.

Russian production? Playing Second Front et al, I built only KV-85s, SU-85s. IL-4s, and Yaks.

I think the game is very replayable.




madgamer2 -> RE: The game Stays! (1/20/2011 12:18:00 AM)

I was going to make this a new post but I think I will slip it in here. The game arrived today and is sitting on the table here beside me...send it back?......Keep it? For me after I bought WitP and had so much trouble even keeping up with the dumb AI(I can now at least keep slightly ahead but major events have not happened yet)I did not want to have to struggle that hard again to learn a game again ....unless.....its the East Front...well then it would appear that the game will stay.
I being a bit different will install it to 1.02 (I NEVER install Beta's out of personal preference) and spend much time on the manual. I will play some of the shorter games to get my feet wet but the amount of information is staggering!
I am learning a bit about the game by reading the forum. I do not think that as the basic hard core game will become more so that putting in some player adjustable things for those of us who are not hard core is a good idea. Odd perhaps but the most interesting and scary comment was the one about the hard core testers could get through that firs winter but the new or casual testers 9 out of 10 would drop out or restart. I am one of the later group. I like playing games like this game(with reservations) and I do not mind playing against the AI. Many of the gamers in the WitP forum left because of the hard core players comments about PBEM is the ONLY! WAY! to go. Some of us have lives to live and things to do and as much as I love to play I do not want to make playing a game like this the ONLY thing in my life. I do not know how some of them manage unless they lack kids and a wife.
The other reveling comment came tonight when one player stated that to have a chance to survive that first winter you have to kill or capture a lot of Russians. The unstated truth is to do that you have to fight like the Germans DID AND GO LIKE CRAZY BUT STILL MANAGE TO TRY TO READY YOURSELF FOR LOSSES OF AT LEAST 100,000 PER BLIZZARD TURN.
YOU THEN COULD FIND YOURSELF ON THE SAME LIMB BEING SAWED OFF BY THE RUSSIAN WITH A SMILE AND A SAW lol. SO i WILL TAKE MORE TIME TRYING TOM UNDERSTAND THE RULES AND ABSORB SOME OF THE GOOD ADVICE GIVEN HERE. Well enough ranting. I just feel I am about to step into a very deep hole and come out worse than with WitP but have no one to blame but me.

Wish me luck
A slightly Dazed Madgamer2



madgamer2 -> RE: A difficult choice (1/20/2011 12:30:01 AM)

my first reaction was "OH no another hard core dude who does not understand what I am trying to say" Then I began to see what your saying is perhaps a bitter truth for me to swallow but You have never been in a situation where you are trying to learn a game on a period of WW2 that you love and have read a lot about but just can't seem to get a handle on the game?
I am an old guy but I think you are right if I give up now and don't get back in there perhaps I should quit. There is some truth to you hard words. Consider yourself lucky that you never fall into the situation I had with WitP. All those hours, all that time ,frustration,and finally seeing that I was not going to reach a good enough level to play another human. So although I find your words harsh there is truth in what you say so thanks fo your honest words.

Madgamer



Joel Billings -> RE: A difficult choice (1/20/2011 12:42:46 AM)

Good luck. In my opinion, WitE is much easier to get into than WitP, and it's much easier to get to a decent play level. On the other hand, the AI may be better, so it will give you more of a battle. On the other hand, the short scenarios are plenty of fun and you can learn a lot and have fun for many hours just playing them. On the other hand... I hope you have fun.



jomni -> RE: A difficult choice (1/20/2011 12:45:49 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

Good luck. In my opinion, WitE is much easier to get into than WitP, and it's much easier to get to a decent play level. On the other hand, the AI may be better, so it will give you more of a battle. On the other hand, the short scenarios are plenty of fun and you can learn a lot and have fun for many hours just playing them. On the other hand... I hope you have fun.


You have lots of hands! WITE is definitely more easy to get into since you have less options to tinker with. Expanding the options like production will just make it more tedious for some players.



madgamer2 -> RE: A difficult choice (1/20/2011 12:46:49 AM)

As a player of a game I am forced by the design to repeat what happened is not only boring but an insult to my intelligence. Now in this game you should if you desire want to fight within the historical bounds to see if you can do better ....Well I have no problem with that but I get the feeling that this game is part simulation and part historical and in time things will be corrected and the game will be even better tan it is even with some things that need to changed.
I kept the game partly because nobody has ever tried to do what Gary is doing with the east front. I think that changes could be made to satisfy both historical and simulation players. I kept it because there is great potential here as with all of Gary's games. I think I knew that it was a keeper but had my doubts about my own abilities. This is not the fault of the designer or the game but of myself. I know I will have fun nomater if I don't ever get off th lowest level of difficulty what ever that is

Madgamer



madgamer2 -> RE: A difficult choice (1/20/2011 12:53:05 AM)

I had HOI 1&2 and found them to hard to control with there so called RT mode. I saw a video of HOI3 and was glad i did not buy it. I am not strong on production and trying to manage two fronts that are going on at the same time with all the pop up messages and managing that production system ....to much for me. There was one variant that I think was called "the super AI bundle that I kind of liked but they were not games for me. I guess not really liking RTS games is just not my thing.

Madgamer



madgamer2 -> RE: A difficult choice (1/20/2011 12:57:42 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BigAnorak

Or the 1943 campaign - it is a hell of a lot of fun.

Yes most history books on the war feel that 43 was the pivotal year. I do thank you for your posts. They have helped me a lot and some I will even save. You strike me as a very intelligent person who is willing to help. If we had more testers like you things would be better.
thanks for the help

Madgamer



madgamer2 -> RE: A difficult choice (1/20/2011 1:01:04 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: molchomor

+1 for optional production control for added "what-if" replayability. This game has added a lot of micromanagement on stuff like railroad conversion, fortification, garrisoning, army restructuring and hierarchy, supply etc., and why not, can be fun to play around with now and then.

Let me just say that I believe more people (aka customers) are fascinated by and wanting to micromanage WW2 hardware than that stuff ! Heck, even the big dictators had their nose deep into production decisions (at least the moustache guy) so why can't we?


Yeah that works for some folks like you but I just do not have a head for production. I can see myself having fun all the while with the Russians in Berlin in 43 LOL!

Madgamer



morganbj -> RE: A difficult choice (1/20/2011 1:26:35 PM)

madgamer2, is there ANY game that you like? It seems like in many game forums on these boards you post a complaint about how the game is too much for you, and at your age, .....

Well, I'm only a little younger than you are (well over 60), and find this game fascinating. Sure there's a lot to learn, but learning is a way to the old brain working. I've never bought a game that I couldn't get to a decent level of proficiency with. Maybe you should just buy games closer to those that you like.

Sorry, but I felt compelled to say this.



MengJiao -> RE: A difficult choice (1/20/2011 1:38:05 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: bjmorgan
Sorry, but I felt compelled to say this.



I think Axis players need some kind of support group just to let them know it is Okay to lose WWII.



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