German AP vs. APCR (Full Version)

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Ivancito -> German AP vs. APCR (12/18/2000 8:55:00 PM)

I've started to get into the game, playing a long German campaign. In the French scenario, expecting lots of tough French tanks, I upgraded some units to PzJg 1b, which turned out to be a wise decision, since my couple of 88s were swamped by hordes of Somuas. The PanzerJaegers had a stellar showing. However, in the next scenario, against the Brits, I noticed a lot of ricochets against the Cruisers. It made me pay attention to the text boxes. I noticed that at least 90% of APCR hits would ricochet, while 90% of AP hits would either penetrate or at least gouge a big hole in the armour (no ricochet, just not penetrated deep enough). I was under the assumption that the APCR ammo was designed in order to ricochet less rather than more. To make things stranger, further on I finally upgraded some wimpy Pz IIIe's into Pz IIIh's. The Pz IIIh APCR round did not show the same behaviour as the PzJg 1b's. So, basically this is my question: Why is the AP ammo for the PzJg 1b gun (I forget which one it is) more efficient than the supposedly more advanced APCR? And why is the PzJg 1b's APCR pinging off British armour when it was dealing fairly well against the French? I don't think SPW@W models face-hardness of armour, individually or by nationality. Am I wrong? And finally, what does APCR stand for anyway? Armour Piercing Capped R-Whatever? [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img]



Paul Vebber -> (12/19/2000 12:30:00 AM)

APCR = Armor piercing composite rigid, a subcaliber hunk of tungston rigidly fixed in the projectile (as opposed to Armor piercing Discarbing Sabot which sheds its "sabot" or sleeve that fills it out to full caliber) APCR takes advantage of the fact that a subcaliber round can achieve higher velocity than a full caliber round, coupled with the higher density of tungston over steel to keep mass up in a smaller volume. The price to pay is that the faster lighter round is eflected more easily by angled armor. It is designed to be more effective aganist "slab sided" vehicles like the Matilda, and KVs and not the heavily angled armor of some types of cruiser tanks or T-34s. The other fact that is still has the cross section of a full caliber round against air resistance means the performance falls off very rapidly with range. So APCR is best used at close range (less than 10 hexes) against targets with poor slope to their armor and at near right angles to the primary face. THe combination of well sloped armor and a 45 degree quarter target angle will result in many richocets. We are always working to refine the physcics the combat model is based on, But the results of that will not be ready until SP:Modern War. Right now APCR rounds of less than 50mm vs heavier armor is best portrayed. APCR against armor less than the round caliber in thickness will tend to richochet a bit too much, maybe by 20% or so. MOdels have to pick a setpoint, and I picked that worked best for German 50mm APCR vs 41-43 Heavy Tank type threats, and it works less well in other situations. Trying expand the model to apply with equal fidelity across all combinations is tough, but improvements will come in time! As it is I put underlying model currently in the game up against any game out there (including CM and TOPS/PITS) for fidelity of the armor/shell interactions. And its only getting better thanks to the help of folks like Paul Lakowski.



Paul Lakowski -> (12/19/2000 1:10:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Ivancito: To make things stranger, further on I finally upgraded some wimpy Pz IIIe's into Pz IIIh's. The Pz IIIh APCR round did not show the same behaviour as the PzJg 1b's. [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img]
Ivancito, ricochet results are primarly controled by striking velocity , the higher the velocity the higher the critical ricochet angle [ angle at which ricochet starts for a give t/d]. Off hand the 50L60 APCR got a Muzzle velocity of ~1200m/s while the 50L42 APCR was ~ 1050m/s. I doubt the 47mm ATG on the JgPz -1 was much more than that. In addition the heavier and longer the round [compared to T/d ] the higher the ricochet angle again.



Ivancito -> (12/19/2000 7:08:00 PM)

Heh! Trust this forum to give you a comprehensive answer! [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] The Cruiser tanks do have pretty well sloped armour, so I guess that answered my question, combined with the description of APCR. I thought it was a version of the Armour Piercing Capped. Man's inventiveness when it comes to kill his fellow man is amazing. You guys are probably having a hell of a time trying to model the sheer amount of AP ammo available... Let's see, AP, APC, APCBC, APCR, APDS, APFSDS, HESH, HEAT... I'm probably not even halfway down the list [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] In any case, thanks a lot. Your explanation was very helpful. The only thing remaining is to teach my gunners no to waste 47 mm APCR on the Cruisers [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img]



Arralen -> (12/19/2000 8:14:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by Ivancito: The only thing remaining is to teach my gunners no to waste 47 mm APCR on the Cruisers [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img]
Easy solution - as APCR range is usually ather limited, simply stay out of APCR range and your tanks use AP happily. Arralen



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