RE: Current Human vs Human 41 campaign games (Full Version)

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abulbulian -> RE: Current Human vs Human 41 campaign games (1/21/2011 8:48:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bwheatley

T39 i'm spending a lot of AP to upgrade all my old I* planes to either migs/yaks/laggs or il2's.

No winter german blitz. It appears my opponent is husbanding his strength until after mud. Good for me time to build forts. Hopefully this will slow the german monster down.

quote:

Don't bother wasting APs on upgrading fighters, the AI can handle that job reasonably well for free. This is why its a pretty good idea to throw in your obsolete fighters into combat and let them get hammered in 1941: it runs down the replacement pool on obsolete models and the automated system w


Lol, well considering I'm your opponent I can tell you that the axis armed forces are in no condition for any offensive actions. After 13 turns of blizzard and constantly attacking sov superhuman units, my army is too depleted and I see no point to risk any senseless attacks as manpower is in short supply. Keep in mind I lost 1.2 million men in Dec41, Jan42, and Feb42. Just the fact that one could think the axis could mount anything in March 42, tells me how much they don't understand the axis issues after the 41-42 blizzard turns. Playing as axis against sov AI will not give you a great perspective on this.

So I have to wait until maybe May to launch any sort of attack. However, I can see the sov lines are already 3-4 hexes deep in all but maybe the far north. So I'll be fighting against a Kursk type line all over (minus the minefields) in spr-sum42. Doesn't look promising as he also has reserves lurking of a shock army and GUARDS units (nice little red guys) to check any break through I might achieve. Where ever I go, I can expect him to react and react quickly in force.
[:(]



Avenger -> RE: Current Human vs Human 41 campaign games (1/22/2011 12:41:39 AM)

Even against the AI the TOE of any Axis unit that was not in a city is horrible after the blizzards. I don't see how anyone can think attacks until summer. Me I just look around the battlefield and hit next turn after the blizzards.



bwheatley -> RE: Current Human vs Human 41 campaign games (1/22/2011 1:25:55 AM)

hehe interesting advice. But yea i'm still getting used to the system since you don't have pilots i guess it doesn't matter if you get your crappy planes killed off since pilots are not separate.

Oh yea i have that coming up for tank corps shortly. This is my first soviet game against a player so i'm learning by the seat of my pants. I remember someone said turn off automatic plane upgrades so thats what i did. I did that with witp i like the manual control of when i move new aircraft out.

It looks like mud is going to come and go peacefully since germany is still licking her winter wounds. Which is good because about 80% of my army is "unready" at the moment. Those lines that were 2-3 deep were all for show with units of 1-2 cv. There are a few 12 division armys further back with 3-4 cv avg though to counter any german advances.



bwheatley -> RE: Current Human vs Human 41 campaign games (1/22/2011 1:50:50 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: abulbulian

quote:

ORIGINAL: bwheatley

T39 i'm spending a lot of AP to upgrade all my old I* planes to either migs/yaks/laggs or il2's.

No winter german blitz. It appears my opponent is husbanding his strength until after mud. Good for me time to build forts. Hopefully this will slow the german monster down.

quote:

Don't bother wasting APs on upgrading fighters, the AI can handle that job reasonably well for free. This is why its a pretty good idea to throw in your obsolete fighters into combat and let them get hammered in 1941: it runs down the replacement pool on obsolete models and the automated system w


Lol, well considering I'm your opponent I can tell you that the axis armed forces are in no condition for any offensive actions. After 13 turns of blizzard and constantly attacking sov superhuman units, my army is too depleted and I see no point to risk any senseless attacks as manpower is in short supply. Keep in mind I lost 1.2 million men in Dec41, Jan42, and Feb42. Just the fact that one could think the axis could mount anything in March 42, tells me how much they don't understand the axis issues after the 41-42 blizzard turns. Playing as axis against sov AI will not give you a great perspective on this.

So I have to wait until maybe May to launch any sort of attack. However, I can see the sov lines are already 3-4 hexes deep in all but maybe the far north. So I'll be fighting against a Kursk type line all over (minus the minefields) in spr-sum42. Doesn't look promising as he also has reserves lurking of a shock army and GUARDS units (nice little red guys) to check any break through I might achieve. Where ever I go, I can expect him to react and react quickly in force.
[:(]


When you say 3-4 you mean 2-3 :) i don't have any lines that are 4 deep except where i might have a corner to a line that makes 4 but 90% are 2-3



Redmarkus5 -> RE: Current Human vs Human 41 campaign games (1/22/2011 1:55:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Don't go overboard with airplane upgrades. This is a nearly bottomless pit for APs, and you've got huge expenditures coming in 1942. You should be thinking ahead and trying to bank APs for corps conversions.

The only airplane upgrades I ever do is to shturmoviks from U2Vs and the I15bis bomber groups. Don't bother wasting APs on upgrading fighters, the AI can handle that job reasonably well for free. This is why its a pretty good idea to throw in your obsolete fighters into combat and let them get hammered in 1941: it runs down the replacement pool on obsolete models and the automated system will respond accordingly, switching those groups to newer models gratis. The Luftwaffe is your silent partner here, they need to kill thousands of I16s and whatnot and clear the decks.


Well, I got that part of my strategy 100% wrong then. I should have let the Luftwaffe kill as many of my aircraft and pilots as possible in order for my Air Force to modernize more quickly! Counter-intuitive at least, strange game design option at best...



karonagames -> RE: Current Human vs Human 41 campaign games (1/22/2011 2:12:16 PM)

No, you can spend APs however you like. Flavio likes spending his APs in a specific way, and gets his army organised in a specific way. Having been on the receiving end of the results of his organisation I can verify how effective it is. I am sure you will find out for yourself whether prioritising AP expenditure on the Red Airforce is the way to go.

Everyone is able to develop their own styles of play, only time will tell whether they are successful or not.



abulbulian -> RE: Current Human vs Human 41 campaign games (1/22/2011 6:15:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4


quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Don't go overboard with airplane upgrades. This is a nearly bottomless pit for APs, and you've got huge expenditures coming in 1942. You should be thinking ahead and trying to bank APs for corps conversions.

The only airplane upgrades I ever do is to shturmoviks from U2Vs and the I15bis bomber groups. Don't bother wasting APs on upgrading fighters, the AI can handle that job reasonably well for free. This is why its a pretty good idea to throw in your obsolete fighters into combat and let them get hammered in 1941: it runs down the replacement pool on obsolete models and the automated system will respond accordingly, switching those groups to newer models gratis. The Luftwaffe is your silent partner here, they need to kill thousands of I16s and whatnot and clear the decks.


Well, I got that part of my strategy 100% wrong then. I should have let the Luftwaffe kill as many of my aircraft and pilots as possible in order for my Air Force to modernize more quickly! Counter-intuitive at least, strange game design option at best...


Yes, there are some interesting and sad oddities in the air war. currently I have 600+ FW 190A, which are sitting in my prod pool and no place to put them. Going to be so happy when players have a bit more control on some of these choices, as it stands the 'auto' part to this feature is in need of some changes.

I'm sure the devs are dealing with a lot of air issues and trying to find the best way to solve them. If, not and you're playing with a friend in PBEM you can always use the editor before starting a game. [8D]



abulbulian -> RE: Current Human vs Human 41 campaign games (1/24/2011 4:31:05 AM)

So I haven't seen anybody respond about there pbem human vs human games. I know the ones that are in AAR, but anybody hit blizzard or get past it like our game?



kfmiller41 -> RE: Current Human vs Human 41 campaign games (1/24/2011 4:41:34 AM)

Seeing as you asked, i do have a none AAR game that is about turn 32, and I am doing much better than I expected as the Russians, I will post screens when I get the next turn of the production and casualties in this thread, but based on what I have gotten from my opponent, he thinks I will be in Berlin in 43:-). It is that bad. I have outrun my supply lines in all areas ans have freed Smolensk and am almost halfway to Kiev in the south. Still have 6.5 million men.



abulbulian -> RE: Current Human vs Human 41 campaign games (1/24/2011 4:48:49 AM)

Well, unfortunately, I think that's going to be more of the 'norm' for opponents of equal skill. Soviets having 6.5 million men on turn 32 and with the situation of the front line where it is... well I feel for your opponent. Berlin by 43 might be very possible.

What are the axis player's loses at for men, tanks, planes? How big is your sov af?

thanks for this info.



kfmiller41 -> RE: Current Human vs Human 41 campaign games (1/24/2011 7:27:11 AM)

here are the losses and production for the game thru turn 36 German front line strength is pretty bad considering what he is facing.[X(] Blizzard is still going on. I am on the outskirts of Mogilev!





[image]local://upfiles/8844/C4FA516643E74E0F97E40C0B3223B436.jpg[/image]



bwheatley -> RE: Current Human vs Human 41 campaign games (1/24/2011 11:03:26 AM)

It looks like with a little prodding from peeps my opponent will continue the game in the name of science :)



bwheatley -> RE: Current Human vs Human 41 campaign games (1/25/2011 2:57:27 AM)

T40 Losses

[image]local://upfiles/14863/82FC6D16C1D34FEBA6E49553A281D42E.jpg[/image]



bwheatley -> RE: Current Human vs Human 41 campaign games (1/25/2011 2:59:26 AM)

t40 prod

[image]local://upfiles/14863/731956C8EC6242BD80819112A72261A5.jpg[/image]



raizer -> RE: Current Human vs Human 41 campaign games (1/25/2011 4:19:04 AM)

one of the benefits of being soviet in a pbem games, is that the sov player can sir robin to the rear with stuff he wants to save and box car willie all the stuff he does not mind losing, forward, into the swamps.  I find it amazing that I can rail infantry with their HQs into choke point swamps hexes, and get them right in front of axis units,off load them and have them ready to fight.  Not sure how sir robin to the rear and box car to the front can happen simultaneously-I mean is their any congestion rules/variables that could be introduced to make it a bit more hard for the soviet player to flit all over the map on the same rail lines, axes of advances/retreats? 

Im deep into glantz on blau I II III and one the of the concerns Bock had was that the assigning of strategic/operational axes had to be planned in such a manner as to prevent armies/corps from competing for the same approaches to their separate objectives.  Only a limited numbers of roads/rail exist and "becoming neighbors" with fellow divisions and corps, while providing concentration/mass of effort was a good thing, it was many times outweighed by badness (lol) of competition for rail and roads and bridges.  And this is in summer 42, pretty much the high water mark in terms of organization/coordination for the german army-and they had problems-namely outside millervo, with crowding and congestion and competition for operational avenues of approach.  But in our game, in june/july 41, the soviets can pull off amazing feats of strategic movement and coordination, never suffering any ill effects of moving armies and their corps about the map, and more importantly, right out of the rail cars into fighting  positions in swamps, rough, heavy woods etc.  Seems to me this makes them a real tough out by late 42.

It seems a little off to me, and almost a little too easy, the way the soviets can move masses of men into strategic/operational locations with such ease all the while retreating at the same time.  

(maybe the closer you get to enemy units when moving toward them in rail, the more it costs in strategic movement to come out of rail, and maybe you forfeit all your MPs once you come out of rail/// and make it more expensive to go into rail, initiate rail movement, the closer you are to an enemy division)




MengJiao -> RE: Current Human vs Human 41 campaign games (1/25/2011 1:01:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: raizer

one of the benefits of being soviet in a pbem games, is that the sov player can sir robin to the rear with stuff he wants to save and box car willie all the stuff he does not mind losing, forward, into the swamps.  I find it amazing that I can rail infantry with their HQs into choke point swamps hexes, and get them right in front of axis units,off load them and have them ready to fight.  Not sure how sir robin to the rear and box car to the front can happen simultaneously-I mean is their any congestion rules/variables that could be introduced to make it a bit more hard for the soviet player to flit all over the map on the same rail lines, axes of advances/retreats? 

Im deep into glantz on blau I II III and one the of the concerns Bock had was that the assigning of strategic/operational axes had to be planned in such a manner as to prevent armies/corps from competing for the same approaches to their separate objectives.  Only a limited numbers of roads/rail exist and "becoming neighbors" with fellow divisions and corps, while providing concentration/mass of effort was a good thing, it was many times outweighed by badness (lol) of competition for rail and roads and bridges.  And this is in summer 42, pretty much the high water mark in terms of organization/coordination for the german army-and they had problems-namely outside millervo, with crowding and congestion and competition for operational avenues of approach.  But in our game, in june/july 41, the soviets can pull off amazing feats of strategic movement and coordination, never suffering any ill effects of moving armies and their corps about the map, and more importantly, right out of the rail cars into fighting  positions in swamps, rough, heavy woods etc.  Seems to me this makes them a real tough out by late 42.

It seems a little off to me, and almost a little too easy, the way the soviets can move masses of men into strategic/operational locations with such ease all the while retreating at the same time.  

(maybe the closer you get to enemy units when moving toward them in rail, the more it costs in strategic movement to come out of rail, and maybe you forfeit all your MPs once you come out of rail/// and make it more expensive to go into rail, initiate rail movement, the closer you are to an enemy division)




I agree that a game with road and rail capacities would be interesting, but it would be fundamentally different from this game.



notenome -> RE: Current Human vs Human 41 campaign games (1/25/2011 1:53:07 PM)

Railing Soviets to the front can be adressed at least partialy by some sort of readiness penalty, much like the motorized penalty that ocurs when you reactivate a unit. Railing units out on the other hand is a more complex issue.



bwheatley -> RE: Current Human vs Human 41 campaign games (1/25/2011 4:13:52 PM)

t45 oob

[image]local://upfiles/14863/3E5C025FC5914EBEA4690D9766682227.jpg[/image]



bwheatley -> RE: Current Human vs Human 41 campaign games (1/25/2011 4:14:31 PM)

t45 losses


[image]local://upfiles/14863/02CE739F525A4AB39A5B6872BFF8A689.jpg[/image]



karonagames -> RE: Current Human vs Human 41 campaign games (1/25/2011 5:02:23 PM)

Thanks for posting the OOB numbers. The Axis effectives strength is 200K higher than the benchmark figures we have been using for the start of the 1942 campaign (3,013,936) and they have more 600 more AFVs(2862)and almost exactly the same number of Aircraft(2951). I've misplaced the Soviet numbers but It looks like they with be 1000k higher than the bench mark, their AFV numbers look really low and their aircraft really high.

Edit: any chance of posting the air losses? And did you play any house rules with air operations?



Q-Ball -> RE: Current Human vs Human 41 campaign games (1/25/2011 5:09:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BigAnorak

Thanks for posting the OOB numbers. The Axis effectives strength is 200K higher than the benchmark figures we have been using for the start of the 1942 campaign (3,013,936) and they have more 600 more AFVs(2862)and almost exactly the same number of Aircraft(2951). I've misplaced the Soviet numbers but It looks like they with be 1000k higher than the bench mark, their AFV numbers look really low and their aircraft really high.

Edit: any chance of posting the air losses? And did you play any house rules with air operations?


Interesting benchmarks. Look at his production pools, though, on T-40; I count over 1500 T-34s and KVs alone. Couldn't he quickly reach the benchmark just by creating a pile of Tank units? He certainly has the Tanks to fill them with.



Flaviusx -> RE: Current Human vs Human 41 campaign games (1/25/2011 5:12:53 PM)

Yeah, the Soviet AFV numbers will adjust themselves once tank corps come into play and the Soviet player starts building tank battalions.

In early 1942 there's a tendency for obsolete models to linger in the existing tank brigades even if they are well below TOE, and this can distort the AFV numbers. The situation corrects itself in due course.

I'm actually mildly impressed with the German figures in this particular data set. They are very respectable.



karonagames -> RE: Current Human vs Human 41 campaign games (1/25/2011 5:15:40 PM)

Correction: the German effectives numbers are 200k higher. The Sovs 1100k up on men, 2400 down on AFVs, and nearly 10k up on Aircraft.



karonagames -> RE: Current Human vs Human 41 campaign games (1/25/2011 5:18:46 PM)

The Rumanians are down 50K, the Hungarians are up 50K. the Finns about level.



raizer -> RE: Current Human vs Human 41 campaign games (1/25/2011 5:24:03 PM)

the sov aircraft #'s are insane-getting them all to airbases and just flinging them at the axis might be a game in itself



bwheatley -> RE: Current Human vs Human 41 campaign games (1/25/2011 5:24:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BigAnorak

Thanks for posting the OOB numbers. The Axis effectives strength is 200K higher than the benchmark figures we have been using for the start of the 1942 campaign (3,013,936) and they have more 600 more AFVs(2862)and almost exactly the same number of Aircraft(2951). I've misplaced the Soviet numbers but It looks like they with be 1000k higher than the bench mark, their AFV numbers look really low and their aircraft really high.

Edit: any chance of posting the air losses? And did you play any house rules with air operations?

I will post air for t50 tonight and losses and oob.

For houserules on air we said no strat air since it's broken right now. So we have both been not doing much with air. We both know there are issues with it so we feel it's almost a waste of time for anything besides recon/transport atm.




bwheatley -> RE: Current Human vs Human 41 campaign games (1/25/2011 5:27:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball


quote:

ORIGINAL: BigAnorak

Thanks for posting the OOB numbers. The Axis effectives strength is 200K higher than the benchmark figures we have been using for the start of the 1942 campaign (3,013,936) and they have more 600 more AFVs(2862)and almost exactly the same number of Aircraft(2951). I've misplaced the Soviet numbers but It looks like they with be 1000k higher than the bench mark, their AFV numbers look really low and their aircraft really high.

Edit: any chance of posting the air losses? And did you play any house rules with air operations?


Interesting benchmarks. Look at his production pools, though, on T-40; I count over 1500 T-34s and KVs alone. Couldn't he quickly reach the benchmark just by creating a pile of Tank units? He certainly has the Tanks to fill them with.



Well i just got to 4/42 last night so i've started making tank corps. I don't have enough AP to do them all so it's 1 or 2 a turn. Hoping they will start sucking down my t34's and get them into the loop.

Before winter set in i was at <2000 tanks (iirc) the tanks have just been building up since winter and mud. I'm now finally ahead in tank production. But right now tanks really don't do much for me. I think with tank corps i'll have better luck though i've got some that have 40-50MP with full supply. So i might have a chance to use them to counter wherever ara commits for the 42 attacks.

I've pulled 5 tank corps to be an army in the north. I've got another 5 i'm trying to keep in center and i'll build up another 5 (another 6 months out probably) for south.

I want to use them as a reserve to help counter encircle whatever germany goes after. Also there are some spots where the line is pretty thing. I might use them to kill off a couple german units if i can.



karonagames -> RE: Current Human vs Human 41 campaign games (1/25/2011 5:28:24 PM)

I think the soviet manpower is coming from not capturing the cities they got historically, as the casualty figures are close to or better than our benchmarks.



bwheatley -> RE: Current Human vs Human 41 campaign games (1/25/2011 5:31:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Yeah, the Soviet AFV numbers will adjust themselves once tank corps come into play and the Soviet player starts building tank battalions.

In early 1942 there's a tendency for obsolete models to linger in the existing tank brigades even if they are well below TOE, and this can distort the AFV numbers. The situation corrects itself in due course.

I'm actually mildly impressed with the German figures in this particular data set. They are very respectable.



hehe please tell ara that. He feels it's all doom and gloom. We're really only going to play out to 53 so that you guys can get your numbers. He's still pissed off (and i agree rightly so) about his winter losses from units in good fortifications.

I'm hopeful that he'll start the 42 offensive and smash through my forts and then we'll keep playing. :)



Flaviusx -> RE: Current Human vs Human 41 campaign games (1/25/2011 5:33:04 PM)

The early tank corps are pretty fragile. Use them with some care. The 42a TOE for them is complete crap compared to the later ones. You need to fit them out with attachments to make up for this, including at least 1 tank battalion, they are low in tank strength initially.

They're pretty good against Axis minors and overextended panzers early on. Give them some easy wins to train them up. They'll start off with disappointingly low CVs (3-4) but in a few months you might be able to tease out some 9+ point monsters.




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