Soviet AI Wall/Carpet Defense (Full Version)

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rtb1017 -> Soviet AI Wall/Carpet Defense (1/20/2011 11:14:49 PM)

Itn is summer 42 and am now pushing to capture Moscow with 3 Pz Armies before Mud starts. The Soviet AI seems to be putting a massive wall of units that can be 8-10 units deep. What's more is that it can build these walls with an seemingly endlessl supply of trucks and movement points like magic. My infantry tries to blast a wall but it becomes a lugfest to bash trhu with my panzers. Idf I shift my focus, it builds a new thick wall without any penalties. Units it builds also have high combat values mostly by forming massive coprs and is able to entrench remarkable fast. I thought this carpet defense was only a 1941 issue but I am seeing this in 1942. Any input on this is appreciated?



Muzrub -> RE: Soviet AI Wall/Carpet Defense (1/20/2011 11:20:25 PM)

Dude your totally right + 1,

But don't let the fanboys see this thread- they'll just say your crying about not swallowing enough Soviet units, and that its an historical simulation (though historically and the fanboy version of the games events don't match up! Go figure!).



pompack -> RE: Soviet AI Wall/Carpet Defense (1/20/2011 11:30:30 PM)

I faced it throughout 42 and made some progress but every mile was hard.

Then the AI started building rifle corps. In 43 the front line became super tough and very, very difficult to penetrate. BUT in 43 the lines are only two or at most three layers deep. And when the panzers break through they form ENORMOUS pockets. My GC (normal) is now in mid-July 43 and the Russian total casualties are 11.4 million which is an increase of over three million since the Spring thaw. In 42 supply was never a problem since I was advancing at slightly slower than my rail units were repairing rails. Now the Panzer Corps are lucky when the distance to the rail head is 21 hexes instead of 25.

Bottom line seems to be that the AI uses an ultra deep layered defense only because it has too many units. As soon as larger units can be formed it does so but now cannot find enough units for that defense. It seems counter-intuitive that the AI defends better with weak units than with strong ones.



raizer -> RE: Soviet AI Wall/Carpet Defense (1/21/2011 12:05:10 AM)

complaining about a game against the AI should be filed as lame



rtb1017 -> RE: Soviet AI Wall/Carpet Defense (1/21/2011 12:07:22 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: raizer

complaining about a game against the AI should be filed as lame


Every facet of the game (or anything)is fair game. That's how we get quality.



Baron von Beer -> RE: Soviet AI Wall/Carpet Defense (1/21/2011 12:12:11 AM)

Don't sweat it, every forum has one...



randallw -> RE: Soviet AI Wall/Carpet Defense (1/21/2011 12:20:22 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rtb1017

Itn is summer 42 and am now pushing to capture Moscow with 3 Pz Armies before Mud starts. The Soviet AI seems to be putting a massive wall of units that can be 8-10 units deep. What's more is that it can build these walls with an seemingly endlessl supply of trucks and movement points like magic. My infantry tries to blast a wall but it becomes a lugfest to bash trhu with my panzers. Idf I shift my focus, it builds a new thick wall without any penalties. Units it builds also have high combat values mostly by forming massive coprs and is able to entrench remarkable fast. I thought this carpet defense was only a 1941 issue but I am seeing this in 1942. Any input on this is appreciated?


A massive amount of rifle divisions show up through 1941, and apparently the computer has no limits on APs, so it can keep ordering up units, as long as the infrastructure can bear it. After all, the Germans were know to refer to the Russians as 'hordes'.

Too many Soviet units? They're supposed to.



cyberwop36 -> RE: Soviet AI Wall/Carpet Defense (1/21/2011 1:04:11 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rtb1017

Itn is summer 42 and am now pushing to capture Moscow with 3 Pz Armies before Mud starts. The Soviet AI seems to be putting a massive wall of units that can be 8-10 units deep. What's more is that it can build these walls with an seemingly endlessl supply of trucks and movement points like magic. My infantry tries to blast a wall but it becomes a lugfest to bash trhu with my panzers. Idf I shift my focus, it builds a new thick wall without any penalties. Units it builds also have high combat values mostly by forming massive coprs and is able to entrench remarkable fast. I thought this carpet defense was only a 1941 issue but I am seeing this in 1942. Any input on this is appreciated?

I bet the German General Staff felt the same way. lol



Pawsy -> RE: Soviet AI Wall/Carpet Defense (1/21/2011 7:23:02 AM)

+1 vote against the carpet ZOC defence by AI. Its just using digging in and ZOC to stop the Germans. Its like throwing a damp blanket on a superb game. The reason this seems to be ducking the issue for the AI is that it is so bloody good.

I know the Soviets dug in in depth but a 'shell of a unit' with a couple of thousand men just didnt spend every waking minute digging in. To to achieve say a 'fort level' across a 10 mile by 10 mile zone is just not credible. Units spend most of their time training and organizing themselves. Besides the vast majority of personnel are employed in the logistic tail of units.



randallw -> RE: Soviet AI Wall/Carpet Defense (1/21/2011 7:29:41 AM)

Most of the digging is done by engineers/sappers; other troops contribute a little.  A division of a few thousand men will have a low construction rate; they won't magically increase the fort level of a hex by 1 each turn.



MengJiao -> RE: Soviet AI Wall/Carpet Defense (1/21/2011 1:52:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Muzrub

Dude your totally right + 1,

But don't let the fanboys see this thread- they'll just say your crying about not swallowing enough Soviet units, and that its an historical simulation (though historically and the fanboy version of the games events don't match up! Go figure!).



Too late. I've seen this thread. I'm guessing it would have been pretty hard for the Axis to go after Moscow in 1942. After all the big Soviet mistake in 1942 was to concentrate on defending Moscow while the Axis drove all over the South.

Since I'm playing the Soviets in 1942, I see this AI problem from the other side: The AI retreats a lot and leaves an interesting assortment of Roumanians to wipe out, except in in the AG center front where there are plenty of elite infantry and panzer divisions to encircle.

I'm not sure what AG North is going to do when I finally attack up there.

Yes, I think the AI has trouble defending with stronger units because thinner lines are easier to break through even if the individual units are strong.



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