unhappiness - at war with race of colony (Full Version)

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Kayoz -> unhappiness - at war with race of colony (1/21/2011 6:59:13 AM)

Playing humans, early on in the game, I came across and subjugated an independent world of Boskarans. It gave me a nice foothold for a Boskaran border, and allowed me to make use of large number of otherwise useless volcanic planets. Then, as it always happens, I ended up at war with the Boskaran empire.

Poof. 20-odd colonies rebel - about half joining the bugs and half going independent. I retake the critical ones, and I'm left paying outrageous garrison support to keep them! Not to mention the strategic and economic bung that my enemy has suddenly acquired.

I'm not sure, but this seems ridiculous. There's simply NO WAY that I can keep a hold of the colonies. It's too expensive to keep them garrisoned. And to make matters worse, I have to micro-manage my colony ships to make sure that I don't make more Boskara colonies - they just rebel immediately, but if I just right-click on a prospective colony location - the AI doesn't factor in the immediate rebellion that will result once the colonists land. It only looks at the closest colony that can make a colony ship which can accommodate the planet type.

Egads, this is making the game close to unplayable. A dinky little "empire" of two systems declares war on me - and bang - my 40-odd system empire goes into mass revolt.

Am I missing something, or did they dramatically increase the unhappiness penalty for being at war with a colony's race? If so, then how am I expected to counteract it? A base with recreation and hospital doesn't come anywhere NEAR balancing the unhappiness. Garrison each and every one of the planets? That would bankrupt me - and is it really reasonable to have each and every colony ship accompanied with a troop transport of garrison troops?

OK, sorry - this is starting to become a rant. It seems to me that they tweaked the numbers, and made it so using independent races for colonization is VERY dangerous - and provided absolutely NO means of avoiding it, short of micromanagement.



WoodMan -> RE: unhappiness - at war with race of colony (1/21/2011 8:33:16 AM)

Ouch, unlucky mate.  Look on the brightside, that Boskara Empire may now be more of a challenge [:D]

On the more serious side though, I've never since I bought the game had a single colony leave my Empire through rebellion [&:]  The only thing I can think that I did different to you is that I don't invade independant colonies, I usually colonize the friendly ones and ignore the ones of disloyal nasty races.  (I assume Boskara have low loyalty).



Data -> RE: unhappiness - at war with race of colony (1/21/2011 9:26:57 AM)

quote:

A dinky little "empire" of two systems declares war on me - and bang - my 40-odd system empire goes into mass revolt.


This is not the only sufficient prerequisite for revolting, there must have been other factors eating away at the happiness long before that....i used to get into that also until I changed my taxation policy, started buildind medical and recreational facilities at colonies, etc etc...the works



J HG T -> RE: unhappiness - at war with race of colony (1/21/2011 9:30:26 AM)

Also, something I sometimes forget when being in war for long time, war weariness can cause some serious rebellions and fleets changing sides. Has happened to me couple of times when playing with "good" races.



Data -> RE: unhappiness - at war with race of colony (1/21/2011 9:34:01 AM)

yap, but this takes time to build up....Kayoz complains about the fact that it happens immediately after they declare war; as I've said, I've been there too
never will I be again [:D]



Kayoz -> RE: unhappiness - at war with race of colony (1/21/2011 11:26:05 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Data

This is not the only sufficient prerequisite for revolting, there must have been other factors eating away at the happiness long before that....i used to get into that also until I changed my taxation policy, started buildind medical and recreational facilities at colonies, etc etc...the works


Nope, only war I was in till that point - absolutely none before. Additionally, tax at 0% in all cases - that's the default AI tax setting for relatively new, which covers all the Boskara race colonies I had rebel. For the few which I had ports, medical/rec facilities only give +7 total, compared to -27 for being at war with the bugs.

Given what I can see of happiness mechanics, there's no feasible way I can hold onto those colonies - short of dropping economy-killing numbers of troops.


quote:

ORIGINAL: WoodMan

...I don't invade independant colonies, I usually colonize the friendly ones and ignore the ones of disloyal nasty races. (I assume Boskara have low loyalty).


I don't think any race has "low" happiness. Securans and Shandar have happiness bonuses, but no race has a happiness penalty - or that I'm aware of.



WoodMan -> RE: unhappiness - at war with race of colony (1/21/2011 11:48:12 AM)

They don't have low happiness, but I think low loyalty means they need less to revolt.  So while they aren't less happy, they revolt at an earlier unhapiness.  I think... as I said I've never had a rebellion, but I think thats what the loyalty stat does (along with them being more likely to backstab their allies).

Edit: Okay, here it is quoted from a very old thread:

· less susceptible to defection from high cultural influence of nearby colonies of other empires

Thats what loyalty does, it doesn't say anything about defection in general and how loyalty affects that, just about cultural influence defection. [&:]



Kayoz -> RE: unhappiness - at war with race of colony (1/21/2011 11:53:33 AM)

I'm not aware of reliable/dependable rating of a race having any influence on happiness or revolt chance. Have you seen something I haven't?

I thought reliability only influenced the "randomness" of their diplomatic interactions.



Kayoz -> RE: unhappiness - at war with race of colony (1/21/2011 12:08:21 PM)

Blah - still comes down to the same problem - mass rebellions once they declare war on me, and from what I can see, I have no recourse but to suck up insane garrison bills and leave troops on all my planets of the race in question. Add to that, the fact that most players will bribe pirates for independent colony locations for a quick population boost - and well, it makes for a very messy situation indeed.

I think I'll have to put this in Tech Support as a bug - unless I've missed something and this is not the intended mechanic.


quote:

ORIGINAL: WoodMan

· less susceptible to defection from high cultural influence of nearby colonies of other empires

Thats what loyalty does, it doesn't say anything about defection in general and how loyalty affects that, just about cultural influence defection.


Nope, cultural defection wasn't the problem - it was the massive happiness hit when I went to war with their race. To me it seems ridiculously high - shouldn't it scale with colony size? And why is the effect immediate and irrevocable, as opposed to scaling with the length and intensity of the war? Seems poorly implemented to me.



Data -> RE: unhappiness - at war with race of colony (1/21/2011 12:19:03 PM)

Kayoz, please confirm as I've seen you put it in another thread....you're on DW 1.0.6.0, correct?
Though I cannot recall seeing something like this even there either but it may be relevant



Kayoz -> RE: unhappiness - at war with race of colony (1/21/2011 12:22:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Data

Kayoz, please confirm as I've seen you put it in another thread....you're on DW 1.0.6.0, correct?
Though I cannot recall seeing something like this even there either but it may be relevant


Nope, I haven't yet - I wanted to see if I was missing something obvious before I tagged it as a bug.

And nope, currently using 1.502.



Setekh -> RE: unhappiness - at war with race of colony (1/21/2011 4:45:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: WoodMan

On the more serious side though, I've never since I bought the game had a single colony leave my Empire through rebellion [&:]  The only thing I can think that I did different to you is that I don't invade independant colonies, I usually colonize the friendly ones and ignore the ones of disloyal nasty races.  (I assume Boskara have low loyalty).



This is exactly what I do too and I also have never had any rebellions since the day I bought the game.



Larsenex -> RE: unhappiness - at war with race of colony (1/21/2011 7:52:28 PM)

Data can you explain how I can build medical and research facilities at my planets? Are you taking a small base and adding those modules to it?

I was thinking of modifying a small base and adding Rec Rooms, Medical facitilies and research to it but I think that would make the cost of my empire go nuts. However I do have ALOT of trade going on which is a considerable offset.



elanaahova -> RE: unhappiness - at war with race of colony (1/21/2011 8:19:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Larsenex

I was thinking of modifying a small base and adding Rec Rooms, Medical facitilies and research to it but I think that would make the cost of my empire go nuts. However I do have ALOT of trade going on which is a considerable offset.

TWO ways to do this. (1) Design a small spacebase, add med and rec fac, and bare bones supporting modules. Build it at the planet. or (2) design a spacebase that is just like the one that is already there, but add the rec, med facilities, and then order the current base to "refit" to the new design - this may be quicker, because i don't think 'refit' replaces modules that are in both the old and the new spacebase.




Larsenex -> RE: unhappiness - at war with race of colony (1/21/2011 8:41:13 PM)

Ooo and I can add scanners and a few more 'loadin dox' for dem space dockworkers to move cargo! Ah Trade, the life blood of my stellar empire!



elanaahova -> RE: unhappiness - at war with race of colony (1/21/2011 8:46:36 PM)

Absolutely, but remember, the bigger the design, the longer it will take to build, and come on line. If the natives "below" tend to be hostile, getting the med, and rec modules built may take priority over building a suitable trading hub... oh, the trade offs. of course, you could build the the smaller one, and then refit it to a trading hub...



Kayoz -> RE: unhappiness - at war with race of colony (1/22/2011 2:28:02 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: elanaahova

TWO ways to do this. (1) Design a small spacebase, add med and rec fac, and bare bones supporting modules. Build it at the planet. or (2) design a spacebase that is just like the one that is already there, but add the rec, med facilities, and then order the current base to "refit" to the new design - this may be quicker, because i don't think 'refit' replaces modules that are in both the old and the new spacebase.


The problem remains, that the happiness penalty for being at war with a colony's race cannot be mitigated no matter what you do or invest in the colony.

War penalty: -27
Rec/Med: +7
= more than enough to make any colony rebel

So until you get points from development or special ruins (or otherwise), there's no way to hold onto colonies short of garrisons constantly fighting down the rebel units that pop up. This really doesn't seem to be "reasonable behaviour" for the game.



elanaahova -> RE: unhappiness - at war with race of colony (1/22/2011 3:38:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kayoz


quote:

ORIGINAL: elanaahova

TWO ways to do this. (1) Design a small spacebase, add med and rec fac, and bare bones supporting modules. Build it at the planet. or (2) design a spacebase that is just like the one that is already there, but add the rec, med facilities, and then order the current base to "refit" to the new design - this may be quicker, because i don't think 'refit' replaces modules that are in both the old and the new spacebase.


The problem remains, that the happiness penalty for being at war with a colony's race cannot be mitigated no matter what you do or invest in the colony.

War penalty: -27
Rec/Med: +7
= more than enough to make any colony rebel

So until you get points from development or special ruins (or otherwise), there's no way to hold onto colonies short of garrisons constantly fighting down the rebel units that pop up. This really doesn't seem to be "reasonable behaviour" for the game.


You are absolutely right. A starbase by itself (hospital/recreation) is not enough, by itself, to address the war penalty. Like so many things in DW, a number of trade offs / factors are relevant to making effective decisions as a player. QUESTION: Do most players feel the war penalty of -27 is too extreme?



Kayoz -> RE: unhappiness - at war with race of colony (1/22/2011 11:54:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: elanaahova

QUESTION: Do most players feel the war penalty of -27 is too extreme?


Too much or too little depends on the intent with which it was introduced.

Was it their intent that you face mass revolt - for which the ONLY option is a massive garrison campaign? Or was it to present an inconvenience, so that you have to be more careful when facing off against different races? Or was it so that you're forced to maintain garrisons on captured worlds?

As usual, the intent of CodeForce's implementation is as transparent as CIA financial records.



WoodMan -> RE: unhappiness - at war with race of colony (1/23/2011 12:34:51 AM)

hmm, haven't played for a while so my memory may be a bit rusty to be honest but I've never had a colony defect because of these reasons (or for any other reason).  My high population colonies, usually have a happiness of 16 and a tax of somewhere between 30 and 40 (if I recall correct, its 26 to begin, then as my rep goes up and the Human history is revealed its 32, or around 40 if I have Securan immigrants).  Reducing tax by 1 increases happiness by 1, this would be enough to offset the -27 easily.

As for small colonies, thats where my memory is rusty, they have 0% tax, and I can't remember the happiness.  If its less than 27, then the colony would revolt like you say.  In fact, I think it is usually around the 20-30 region.

I think its fine and balanced, but obviously something vastly different is taking place in your Empire.  However, as I said before, I don't invade hostile races independent colonies, this is for RP reasons, not practical reasons though.





Kayoz -> RE: unhappiness - at war with race of colony (1/23/2011 11:12:02 AM)

Woody -

I didn't have any problem of this sort before - it seems to be a recent change.



Wonder Dog -> RE: unhappiness - at war with race of colony (1/23/2011 1:15:48 PM)

I think its the change introduced with the 1.502 beta for Troops and Invasions
quote:

Increased colony unhappiness factor 'At War With Our Race' so that invading and taking over a large world of an enemy is now more likely to result in a rebelling population

Colony rebellions now raise more militia troops, especially when at war with the dominant race of the colony



Kayoz -> RE: unhappiness - at war with race of colony (1/23/2011 1:50:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wonder Dog

I think its the change introduced with the 1.502 beta for Troops and Invasions
quote:

Increased colony unhappiness factor 'At War With Our Race' so that invading and taking over a large world of an enemy is now more likely to result in a rebelling population

Colony rebellions now raise more militia troops, especially when at war with the dominant race of the colony




Aah, thanks - I poked around for the patch notes, but didn't see it.

Hrm - well, in that case thy created another problem. It's not just large worlds being taken over that are rebelling - everything is rebelling. Small colonies far away from the front, to freshly invaded worlds. Oh brilliant.

Result of their change:
Use any race other than your own for colonization, you're sc*ewed if you go to war with that race. Any new colony - gone. Any old colony - probably in rebellion as well. Oh, and to make it more fun, you're FORCED to micro-manage your colonization - or else the automation will happily use those populations in colonization if it can.

And to make matters even MORE fun, you have to go through your planets ONE BY ONE to figure out WHICH ONES aren't your own race - since there's NO way of sorting by race.

Great. Just great. Did they actually think this through and test it before implementing this change? Or did they just kludge it into the code?



gmot -> RE: unhappiness - at war with race of colony (1/23/2011 5:35:29 PM)

Well 1.502 beta is a beta, so I'm sure the devs would like your feedback - without sarcasm I'm sure - on this issue if you feel it needs adjustment.



ehsumrell1 -> RE: unhappiness - at war with race of colony (1/23/2011 6:38:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kayoz

Great. Just great. Did they actually think this through and test it before implementing this change? Or did they just kludge it into the code?

I can relate to your frustrations Kayoz, but let me respond.

Understand that it must be a VERY tough position that Elliot takes to listen to the myriad
of FANTASTIC ideas and comments about the game and its gameplay. Especially those mirrored
in the two wishlists and from us testers. Remember the saying that "the needs of the many
outweigh the needs of the few....or the one"? It applies here.

My opinion is that Matrix, Codeforce, Elliot, Erik, and the beta test team (which I'm a proud
member of, amid the flak and flame we get at times) are doing the best possible to please as
many facets as we can. Unfortunately though, there are times that when adding a new, requested
nuance to the game code, it unknowingly tweaks or breaks something else. Usually, the thing
that breaks or tweaks has been well tested and found to function correctly beforehand. But when
it's overlooked and found by hundreds or more of players, then something (or someone) gets flamed
instead of understanding.

I'm TOTALLY happy with this game. Whether I was elected to be a tester or not has nothing to
do with it either. I've been involved with space games since the original StarFlight! Been though
the whole space 4x Hall of Fame. StarFlight II, STARS, Ascendancy, Star Wars: Rebellion, BOTF,
Master Of Orion series, Space Empires, Imperium Galactica II, GalCiv 2 and others. I'm not self-
proclaiming myself as an expert, but I will close my ranting by saying this.

DISTANT WORLDS ROCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [sm=Cool-049.gif]
....and we're STILL working hard to make it BETTER!

Note: To Elliot, Erik and my fellow testers and modders alike, sometimes after reading the forums
and sensing a lack of appreciation, you just have to 'vent'! Thanks for the platform for us all!

[&o]



J HG T -> RE: unhappiness - at war with race of colony (1/23/2011 7:09:45 PM)

We concur ehsumrell1. Well spoken.
I'm quite damn happy with DW (Definetly in my all-time top 10, even top 5) at the moment and I've never been much into nitpicking. DW still has its problems but so does pretty much every other game in the world. In case of DW, and similar games, it would be wise to remember that it's quite complex game so its testing and balancing is complicated and takes time.

Sorry for yet again derailing topic and praising DW. [8|]






elanaahova -> RE: unhappiness - at war with race of colony (1/23/2011 8:52:40 PM)

Yes, I, too, am happy with DW. No game is perfect. I wish DW had the 3-D environment of SotS. I wish DW had more variety in specials on planets. I wish there were many more 'unique' things out there in the big space, weird encounters, perils,etc. But one can't have everything! My suggestion, in light of ehsumrell1's (and others) valid comments is this: more custom-ability.

By this I mean, when the code people add new code to introduce a 'new' feature to the game, make that new feature an option. Allow players to check a box, on creation, to indicate if they wish to implement the new feature, or wish to leave it out. That way, players who strongly dislike the results of the new feature, like the massive rebellions when at war, no way to sort by species when planning colonizing, etc., can opt to not implement that 'new' feature when starting a new game of DW.

I'm a big proponent of maximizing customizing game environment upon creation of the playing environment.



Kayoz -> RE: unhappiness - at war with race of colony (1/24/2011 12:36:02 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ehsumrell1

I can relate to your frustrations Kayoz, but let me respond.

Understand that it must be a VERY tough position that Elliot takes to listen to the myriad
of FANTASTIC ideas and comments about the game and its gameplay. Especially those mirrored
in the two wishlists and from us testers. Remember the saying that "the needs of the many
outweigh the needs of the few....or the one"? It applies here.


I disagree that Elliot has to weigh a myriad of "fantastic" ideas. Most are total rubbish - they're poorly thought through and create more problems than they fix. Sorting through the dross for the gems is Elliot's job - it's time consuming, thankless and tedious - but it's his job. I don't b*tch about my job - if I don't like it, I'm at liberty to quit and move on.

Game design is a juggling act - that's the joy and pain of the art. It's inevitable that attempting to balance one thing will upset another. I haven't seen any games free of this problem.

My problem with CodeForce, is the fact that they're implementing changes without any ability to turn them on or off. A simple registry key for example, to turn the adjusted happiness rates on or off - would allow people to test the change in isolation. That's how I usually implemented changes which I didn't have sufficient time to test, but clients asked for - that way, if they're happy with it, they leave it on and continue using it. And if not, they turn it off and still benefit from the other code fixes. But here we're dealing with 1.502 which addresses critical flaws - and it's an "all or nothing" deal - you get ALL the changes, or you roll back to an earlier version - which may or may not be playable.

Put simply - if you don't have time to QA a change - then make sure you have a switch so people can disable the change. That's how MOST companies work.

As for the beta testing team - well, CodeForce is not following industry standards. Beta testers aren't "elected" anywhere I've seen. It's not a popularity contest - it's a question of whether or not the applicants have the necessary skill sets. This is the first time I've ever seen the online popularity of an individual being a factor in their presence or absence from a test team. I'm mystified why testers are elected. I've never ever seen it done this way.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ehsumrell1

Unfortunately though, there are times that when adding a new, requested
nuance to the game code, it unknowingly tweaks or breaks something else. Usually, the thing
that breaks or tweaks has been well tested and found to function correctly beforehand. But when
it's overlooked and found by hundreds or more of players, then something (or someone) gets flamed
instead of understanding.


If I'm flaming something, it's their QA process and lack of flexibility in implementing changes. How hard would it be to recompile and repackage - one with bug-fixes and another which has balance changes? Hrm - change the DLLs in the Orca database - five minutes?

It's not what they've DONE that I'm annoyed with. It's HOW it's done. Their PROCESS is flawed.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ehsumrell1

I'm TOTALLY happy with this game. Whether I was elected to be a tester or not has nothing to
do with it either. I've been involved with space games since the original StarFlight! Been though
the whole space 4x Hall of Fame. StarFlight II, STARS, Ascendancy, Star Wars: Rebellion, BOTF,
Master Of Orion series, Space Empires, Imperium Galactica II, GalCiv 2 and others.


I think you have to exclude MOO3 from the "Master of Orion series" - #3 wasn't a game. It was just Excel with a spiffy GUI.

You're misunderstanding me - DW is quite well done. Compared to other indie games, it's marvellously well done. Kudos to them. But a mistake is still a mistake. Cheering is well and good, but when they've made a mistake, it's all the more important to call it to their attention. What I see right now, is a problem with their QA process and hotfix release/implementation methodology. Fixing it will ease their workload in the long run and improve future development.




elanaahova -> RE: unhappiness - at war with race of colony (1/24/2011 5:47:23 PM)

I agree with kayoz about making each significant 'change' to the game optional in that each user can elect to implement said change in their current galaxy set up, or not, via a check box in one of the set up screens. As I have written before: customization of games is a VERY important 'feature' than can, sometimes prevent an intended 'feature' becoming a 'bug' (for some users). Allow maximization customization easily through the set up screens.



WoodMan -> RE: unhappiness - at war with race of colony (1/24/2011 7:58:53 PM)

quote:

Put simply - if you don't have time to QA a change - then make sure you have a switch so people can disable the change. That's how MOST companies work
.

I've never seen this implemented in any game I've ever played in my,life, that would be in the hundreds [&:]



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