RE: Home planet invasion too easy solution (Full Version)

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adecoy95 -> RE: Home planet invasion too easy solution (1/23/2011 7:12:16 AM)

sometimes the simplest solution is the best.

if the ai cheats, and pays no upkeep for troops, they can spam them forever on even the lowest of quality worlds.

its kinda lame, but its the simplest and probably the most effective solution. and its probably alot easier to code than alot of these suggestions.

this way, you can either bomb a world to uselessness, or try and take out its 70+ garrison



ASHBERY76 -> RE: Home planet invasion too easy solution (1/23/2011 12:53:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: adecoy95

sometimes the simplest solution is the best.

if the ai cheats, and pays no upkeep for troops, they can spam them forever on even the lowest of quality worlds.

its kinda lame, but its the simplest and probably the most effective solution. and its probably alot easier to code than alot of these suggestions.

this way, you can either bomb a world to uselessness, or try and take out its 70+ garrison


I will stop playing the game if that happended.



Kayoz -> RE: Home planet invasion too easy solution (1/23/2011 1:36:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7


I've suggested a very easy fix for that by increasing the troop module size...that alone will go a long way to alleviate the problem. Even with no other things done, that would severely limit being able to amass hordes of troops for landings.


Your example force indicates 36 troop ships divided between 3 fleets. Looking at your income and maintenance, I can't see how it would make a heck of a difference if you were forced to triple or quadruple your troop ship count. And if so - then have fun taking out an independent world early in the game. No way can you afford the maintenance on a half-dozen troop ships you'd need to take out any independent world, in the early stages of a game.



Shark7 -> RE: Home planet invasion too easy solution (1/23/2011 4:15:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kayoz

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7


I've suggested a very easy fix for that by increasing the troop module size...that alone will go a long way to alleviate the problem. Even with no other things done, that would severely limit being able to amass hordes of troops for landings.


Your example force indicates 36 troop ships divided between 3 fleets. Looking at your income and maintenance, I can't see how it would make a heck of a difference if you were forced to triple or quadruple your troop ship count. And if so - then have fun taking out an independent world early in the game. No way can you afford the maintenance on a half-dozen troop ships you'd need to take out any independent world, in the early stages of a game.


Keep in mind my screen shot was taken AFTER taking those homeworlds. When I started the game, I did it with a fleet of redesigned transports capable of carrying 3 troopers each. I only needed to get 12 troops. And that is the problem. It is far to easy to get troop modules on a ship when they are only size 8. The transports aren't fast, but they don't have to ben if properly escorted (meaning you clear all the defenses first).

Once I get home from work, I will show you what I use at first so you can see the cost and see that it is in fact affordable.



Setekh -> RE: Home planet invasion too easy solution (1/23/2011 4:26:41 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ASHBERY76


quote:

ORIGINAL: adecoy95

sometimes the simplest solution is the best.

if the ai cheats, and pays no upkeep for troops, they can spam them forever on even the lowest of quality worlds.

its kinda lame, but its the simplest and probably the most effective solution. and its probably alot easier to code than alot of these suggestions.

this way, you can either bomb a world to uselessness, or try and take out its 70+ garrison


I will stop playing the game if that happended.

So would I, that's a horrible solution and one I hope that never happens.



Shark7 -> RE: Home planet invasion too easy solution (1/23/2011 4:30:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Setekh


quote:

ORIGINAL: ASHBERY76


quote:

ORIGINAL: adecoy95

sometimes the simplest solution is the best.

if the ai cheats, and pays no upkeep for troops, they can spam them forever on even the lowest of quality worlds.

its kinda lame, but its the simplest and probably the most effective solution. and its probably alot easier to code than alot of these suggestions.

this way, you can either bomb a world to uselessness, or try and take out its 70+ garrison


I will stop playing the game if that happended.

So would I, that's a horrible solution and one I hope that never happens.


I agree with you on this. A unlimited AI troop cheat is not the solution.

Reprogramming the AI so that it keeps a force at its high population colonies that is proportional to the importance of the colony is acceptable.



Shark7 -> I will show you how easy it is..multi-part post (1/23/2011 7:00:41 PM)

OK, since pictures say more than words, I will walk you through how to make a home planet seizing fleet from the start.

First picture, is the opening of the game economy, with only 1 colony, 12 troops, and the starting shipset:

As you can see, its a fairly decent economy, but nothing special.



[image]local://upfiles/25927/DC45E782537F4B699064D8B95F85CB37.jpg[/image]



Shark7 -> RE: I will show you how easy it is..multi-part post (1/23/2011 7:02:13 PM)

Next, the standard troopship design I have as generated by the game. In other words, opening tech, no changes.

[image]local://upfiles/25927/10046AE5E7B14F16B36EEA0E300D71B9.jpg[/image]



Shark7 -> RE: I will show you how easy it is..multi-part post (1/23/2011 7:03:45 PM)

Now, my slightly modified design. Since I play a mod which gives the mega-density cell, I even removed those and put standard ones back on in their place.

This was extremely easy...drop 1 shield, add 3 troop modules.



[image]local://upfiles/25927/9BE0C6D0887F47D2A0670AC8DDE0E210.jpg[/image]



Shark7 -> RE: I will show you how easy it is..multi-part post (1/23/2011 7:06:09 PM)

Now then, I recruited 20 new troops, unpaused the game, and built enough ships so that I end up with:

12 escort
12 frigate
12 destroyer
4 troopships
4 explorers
2 constructors

Then set the game on 4x speed and let the troops start to laod.

Here's the fleet after enought time to colonize 3 new worlds...~ 10 minutes of playtime at 4x speed.

[image]local://upfiles/25927/2D236B45289343E3BBE1539BA57BC9A8.jpg[/image]



Shark7 -> RE: I will show you how easy it is..multi-part post (1/23/2011 7:07:03 PM)

Pic of a loaded transport. Note it can carry 4 troops.



[image]local://upfiles/25927/82AA4007FD63488CA285F9051759461E.jpg[/image]



Shark7 -> RE: I will show you how easy it is..multi-part post (1/23/2011 7:08:10 PM)

And finally the ending economy with 1 of these 'over-powered' transport fleets:

I can easily afford a second fleet similar to this one, or to simply expand by 4 more transports.



[image]local://upfiles/25927/AE5C9E60794B43A2AFBA4EAE868D95BA.jpg[/image]



Shark7 -> RE: I will show you how easy it is..multi-part post (1/23/2011 7:10:38 PM)

Now then, I hope I have shown the problem. 7 troop modules meaning I only need 4 transports to have a fleet big enough to carry enough troops to invade an early state homeworld. I have enough warships to clear the defenses, and with 6-8 of these transports enough troops to make sure the invasion succeeds. A larger size transport module would mitigate this, and may be all that is needed to do so.

And then once I have that first homeworld, well my economy effectively doubles, and perpetuates the problem.

Two things would really help:

1. Increase the troop module size to 50. At game start 1-2 at most on a ship, and only on transports.
2. More AI troops on the homeplanet at the start would necessitate the transport of more invasion troops...making it harder to knock out an empire within an hour of starting the game.



Data -> RE: I will show you how easy it is..multi-part post (1/23/2011 8:01:09 PM)

great demonstration, Shark, a little aar in itself....preparation for invasion aar



WoodMan -> RE: I will show you how easy it is..multi-part post (1/23/2011 9:38:21 PM)

To be honest the best solution is to make the AI play more like a Human does.  Find out what it is that makes AI homeworlds/colonies easy to take, see what it does different to the typical Human player, adjust accordingly.  Including, perhaps, attacking player homeworlds early on (depending on aggression of the race), that seems to be Human behaviour here anyway.  

Edit: Oops, that sounds like a direct response to Sharks posts, I'm actually just replying in general because this topic is spread over several threads, and this thread was nearest the top of the forum [:D]



Kayoz -> RE: I will show you how easy it is..multi-part post (1/24/2011 2:06:07 AM)

Righto - I was making assumptions on your game which weren't consistent with the situation you were explaining.

Dunno - I think the "homeworld invasion too easy" question has to be approached from multiple angles. But this discussion is spread out over multiple threads involving loads of people. I think it would be more productive for a company rep to post a proposal of changes related to this problem, and let people pick it apart. Otherwise, the discussion is too scattered and chaotic for Elliot and such to make sense of.



solops -> RE: Home planet invasion too easy solution (1/27/2011 11:34:21 AM)

The real problem is being able to invade at all when orbital defenses still exist. This was pointed out the first week DW came out and was to have been addressed. The idea that one can invade while orbital defenses exist is hard enough to swallow, but then to have those defenses flip control over to the invader is ludicrous. If one DOES have uncontested control of the high orbitals, then invasion ought to be "simple." Keeping the planet is another issue entirely.



Shark7 -> RE: Home planet invasion too easy solution (1/27/2011 2:21:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: solops

The real problem is being able to invade at all when orbital defenses still exist. This was pointed out the first week DW came out and was to have been addressed. The idea that one can invade while orbital defenses exist is hard enough to swallow, but then to have those defenses flip control over to the invader is ludicrous. If one DOES have uncontested control of the high orbitals, then invasion ought to be "simple." Keeping the planet is another issue entirely.


Personally I have never tried to invade until I have eliminated the defense bases and starports, so its a moot point. It's just as easy to do either way.



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