RE: Night Bombing Overpowered? (Full Version)

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m10bob -> RE: Night Bombing Overpowered? (1/25/2011 6:38:58 PM)

If time might be considered.....anybody ever heard of Curtis LeMay?




If anybody need evidence of the effectiveness of Pacific theatre pathfinders and night bombing raids, May I refer you to TITANS OF THE SEAS by James and William Belote


MACARTHURS EAGLES by Lex McAulay is another good source of info..



Yakface -> RE: Night Bombing Overpowered? (1/25/2011 6:57:57 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

If time might be considered.....anybody ever heard of Curtis LeMay?




If anybody need evidence of the effectiveness of Pacific theatre pathfinders and night bombing raids, May I refer you to TITANS OF THE SEAS by James and William Belote


MACARTHURS EAGLES by Lex McAulay is another good source of info..


Is there information about attacks on airbases in those books? or is it mainly about strategic bombing. If there are details on the former, it's the sort of information I've been looking for....if not then it's not relevant.

No pathfinders (as far as I can tell) in any of the attacks in either of my games



FatR -> RE: Night Bombing Overpowered? (1/25/2011 7:02:54 PM)

In my experience, any sort of interception screws the nightbombing accuracy enough to make results practically nonexistent, except against highly overstacked airfields or something like that. Bomber advantage in air combat is more problematic and can lead to one-sided destruction of early Japanese fighters. Less of a problem once Ki-45 enters service, though. These can almost always survive bomber fire.



m10bob -> RE: Night Bombing Overpowered? (1/25/2011 7:05:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yakface


quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

If time might be considered.....anybody ever heard of Curtis LeMay?




If anybody need evidence of the effectiveness of Pacific theatre pathfinders and night bombing raids, May I refer you to TITANS OF THE SEAS by James and William Belote


MACARTHURS EAGLES by Lex McAulay is another good source of info..


Is there information about attacks on airbases in those books? or is it mainly about strategic bombing. If there are details on the former, it's the sort of information I've been looking for....if not then it's not relevant.

No pathfinders (as far as I can tell) in any of the attacks in either of my games



Yes, both books, airfields in particular, day and night..


BTW, the figures quoted above referring to the bombings in Europe are useless compared to the Pacific.

The Germans were very adept at creating "fake cities" to bomb at night and thought nothing of torching entire fields for the same reason..

When I lived in Germany, the local stories were that the Nazis intentionally set fire to the old opera house to throw the British bombers off, as they felt it looked similar enough to the Haupbahnhof to throw them off.
The entire neighborhood of Bockenheim suffered, where I lived..
The old opera house was not rebuilt (to a museum) till approx 1975.

The Japanese never went to this extent.



Yakface -> RE: Night Bombing Overpowered? (1/25/2011 7:13:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yakface
3. Any allied player who tried to but couldn't put together this sort of attack is quite frankly incompetent. I've got 350 4E bombers on the map (Jan '43) with at least another 5 groups able to convert (PDU's are on). That number is only going to increase. I could also use 2E bombers at night. The problem is not the 4E bit, but the night bit IMO.



I play the AI, so I'm of course incompetent. I bomb at night in Burma, and am lucky to get 10 RAF bombers onto Mandalay on a good night, moslty from Imphal. The AI normally has at least one fighter unit flying night CAP, as I said, often Nates. My losses are low, as are my results.

Could you give me, for instance, a list of Allied 1943 bases where one can:

A) launch 100+ 4E strikes on multiple nights, and
B) are in range of Japanese bases with the dense populations of grounded planes your results point to.

As you say, we're not in Europe, where airports were thick as fleas. Where in the PTO can you routinely mount these sorts of strikes against these sorts of dense sitting ducks?



As per the proviso in the quote, I would suggest that you have not seriously tried. If you really had put your mind to it and could not get it to happen....then yes incompetent.[:D]

OK - you asked

Calcutta, Ledo, Imphal, Silchar, Chittagong, Comilla, Cox's Bazaar, Dacca, Tennant Creek, Alice Spring, Koumac, Umnack, Adak, Chunking, Nanyang, Changsha. Townsville.

Soon to be - Geraldton, Cookstown, Cairns

Couldn't tell you where all his aircraft are, but suffice it to say, I have bases on every front that can launch that sort of attack. If not, any size (5) could be built up to 8 which is sufficient and there is not lack of those anywhere.

Actually the whole thing is irrelevant, for two reasons

1. The 100 plane attack was coordinated from 3 bases - Ledo, Silchar and Comilla
2. My issue is not with the size of the attack, but with the number of base hits per plane - be there 100 or only 9



crsutton -> RE: Night Bombing Overpowered? (1/25/2011 7:13:59 PM)

Viperpol and I have a gentleman's agreement to restrict night bombing to one unit per theater. That keeps it in persepective yet does not eliminate night bombing altogether as it is kind of fun to fool around with. As the Allied player I hardly use it as when I send my bombers in I want to close a base down with maximum hits. As the Japanese player he uses them for nuisance attack that might do a little damage but just as well might not. I think our agreement works well. Considering the growing Allied air strength, it is understandable that he would want to use some of his fragile bombers at night. I should have done it more myself early in the game. We have in addition restricted night naval attacks to two or three dedicated uints. (I forget how many) but that has kept night naval attacks to a reasonable limit. So far he has torpedoed one CVE and one CA or BB (can't remember) but most of the time his night naval attack do nothing but just cost him planes. It seems to work fine with these limits.

Aside from AA it pays to set at least one fighter unit on night CAP. It does not have to be a night fighter unit just any unit. High air skills are a good idea as well. I use P39 squadrons or one of the small Australian or British squdrons. Older fighters work just fine. Usually, the air combat is not too effective but you will on occasion shoot a bomber down and I find that damaged bombers do not do much damage. In addition, since enemy escorts cannot fly at night it is not uncommon for a portion of the unescorted bombers to turn away. Do this and night attack efficiency will drop off.

However, if both you and your oppoent are sending massive night bombing raids then you are both destined to get quite frustrated. Best to negotiate a compromise.



Dixie -> RE: Night Bombing Overpowered? (1/25/2011 7:16:34 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dixie

For what it's worth, Bomber Command in Europe was a vastly different organisation to the RAF operating out of India. For most of the war in India/Burma there just wasn't the support to mount mass raids, not even on the scale you've managed here, for a few reasons.

Navigation over a featureless jungle with (from what I remember) poor maps at 7000 was not (is not) a good idea, and pretty difficult. If they aren't flying over jungle then they're flying over the sea instead, which is just as featureless.

They have navigators who can use the radio systems someone described above, celestial navigation, dead reckoning, landmarks, and whatever else I don't know, all depending on what was available due to weather, etc. I'm not saying it's easy, but the game does not give anywhere near as good results to night bombing as it does to day bombing. Pilots have posted on these forums about what you can see with even little moonlight if the moon is high enough. Again, I'm not saying it's easy, but there is no way that the results the game gives to night bombing is anywhere near as good as it gives to day bombing.

quote:


There just wasn't the number of aircraft available to mount the size of raid we're talking about.
The aircraft were, in the main, tired and overworked. Both factors lead to more u/s aircraft and thus a decrease in available numbers.

Not a night bombing issue.

quote:


Spares and ground crews were lacking, especially compared to Europe, in combination with the tired aircraft you've got more a/c u/s.

Not a night bombing issue.

quote:


For RAF units in particular, long range types were often required to keep some aircraft on standby to search for downed aircrew over the Bay of Bengal.

Not a night bombing issue.

quote:


Weather would curtail ops, no-one would send up 100+ heavy bombers at night in heavy storms to fly at 7000 feet.

Barely a night bombing issue - really a weather issue. The game does account for the effects of weather. As we well know by now, the game engine has a lot of variables and you might get a good outcome in bad weather. This represents breaks in the clouds, openings in the storms, etc. that allow a raid to go in. As we see from many posted combats bad weather is definitely a limiter on combat results as well (and often spawns complaints like "Why don't my planes hit anything?"). The weather displayed in the combat report is the weather over that hex during that phase of the turn, and does not reflect the 'die rolls' built into the game to provide uncertainty about the exact nature of the weather at the time and point of attack (those breaks in the clouds, let-ups in the storms, etc.).

As for the decision process "no-one would send up..." how exactly is that carried out? Based upon the forecast (press the '3' key or the 'K' key)? That is very often wrong. I suggest that the weather as listed (meaning during that phase of the turn in that hex) is not known for any certainty to the (little electronic) commanders that the player delegates to during turn execution at the time they make that decision. The decision to go or no go is (as I see it) two steps. First, the human player either gives the orders or does not give the orders, and has the (highly imprecise) weather forecast at his disposal. Second, during turn execution the little electronic commanders might cancel based upon weather at the launching base (or ship), or based upon other factors built into the engine (morale, fighter escort, etc.).

quote:


Most of those aren't the fault of, or controllable by, the player. Except altitude.




And, what about the pilots skills/experience in the night attacks being cited in this thread?

I see this thread promoting as way, way too little information used - to the exclusion of other information - to call for changes to the game engine.



Maybe I should've been a bit more specific as to the points I was making/answering.  I was mainly throwing some answers out there as to why the Allies didn'  They might not be specifically night bombing mission factors, but they are factors that affected the actual campaign and are factors that are affecting the game.  Factors that impacted on why the real life results don't match what we see and why people might consider the night bombing to be over effective.  Whilst the number of aircraft in the air doesn't necessarily affect the accuracy of a raid it will change the effectiveness of that raid.  2 hits per bomber per mission might be a reasonable score for a raid of a dozen or two dozen bombers, but when you can mass 100+ bombers in the night sky over Burma then it does feel a little skewed to my mind. 

What radio navigation aids were available in South East Asia in 1943?  No H2S/H2X or Oboe out there.  Celestial navigation and dead reckoning aren't that accurate, it might get you somewhere near Rangoon.  Or it might get you 150 miles off-course if the nav gets something wrong and wartime crews frequently did get something wrong.  Pilots might post on here about how much you can see when the moon is high, but if you're below the cloud cover in a blacked out tin can with limited visibility out over potentially hostile territory then navigation is going to be harder than flying in today's skies.  No point in having a bomb-aimer who can drop bombs withing 100yds of an aiming point if your nav can't get you there, no?

In game we order X units to fly a night bombing mission and Y bombers turn up and drop bombs, there's no indication that Z bombers have got lost or turned back which also has an impact on how the effects are viewed.  If planes are flying at night, at low altitiudes, in bad weather, over difficult to navigate terrain then (IMO at least) ops losses should be enough to make players have to decide if it's worth the risk.  I'm not saying the game engine should change, it's not my decision to make after all.



Yakface -> RE: Night Bombing Overpowered? (1/25/2011 7:19:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs


And, what about the pilots skills/experience in the night attacks being cited in this thread?

I see this thread promoting as way, way too little information used - to the exclusion of other information - to call for changes to the game engine.


What other information would you like?

Pilot experience is in the upper 50's, low 60's with ground bombing skill in upper 60's low 70's. The way pilot training works, I've got hundreds of similar pilots.

Here are the most recent attack report - I've got many many more from the past 3 months if you want them.

this was with 3% moonlight

Night Air attack on Katherine , at 76,128

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 98 NM, estimated altitude 6,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 36 minutes


Allied aircraft
Liberator II x 3
B-24D Liberator x 6
B-24D1 Liberator x 15


Allied aircraft losses
Liberator II: 2 damaged
B-24D Liberator: 2 damaged
B-24D1 Liberator: 5 damaged

Japanese ground losses:
5 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled



Airbase hits 2
Runway hits 80

3.4 hits per bomber

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x Liberator II bombing from 6000 feet
Airfield Attack: 8 x 500 lb GP Bomb
9 x B-24D1 Liberator bombing from 6000 feet
Airfield Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
3 x B-24D Liberator bombing from 6000 feet
Airfield Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
3 x B-24D Liberator bombing from 6000 feet
Airfield Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
6 x B-24D1 Liberator bombing from 6000 feet
Airfield Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Katherine , at 76,128

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 93 NM, estimated altitude 9,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 32 minutes


Allied aircraft
B-24D Liberator x 3
B-24D1 Liberator x 6


Allied aircraft losses
B-24D Liberator: 1 damaged
B-24D Liberator: 1 destroyed by flak
B-24D1 Liberator: 1 damaged



Airbase hits 1
Runway hits 43

Near as damn it 5 hits per bomber

Aircraft Attacking:
6 x B-24D1 Liberator bombing from 6000 feet
Airfield Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
3 x B-24D Liberator bombing from 6000 feet
Airfield Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb



Alfred -> RE: Night Bombing Overpowered? (1/25/2011 8:02:57 PM)

You are highlighting the wrong data.

The number of hits per bomber is rather meaningless. The useful figure is the number of hits made by 500lb bombs. This is because the damage inflicted is dependent on

(a) the size of the bomb and
(b) the number of bombs dropped on target

The same number of "hits " from Blenheim bombers does not inflict the same level of damage because they carry smaller and fewer bombs per plane.

Alfred



Yakface -> RE: Night Bombing Overpowered? (1/25/2011 8:13:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

You are highlighting the wrong data.

The number of hits per bomber is rather meaningless. The useful figure is the number of hits made by 500lb bombs. This is because the damage inflicted is dependent on

(a) the size of the bomb and
(b) the number of bombs dropped on target

The same number of "hits " from Blenheim bombers does not inflict the same level of damage because they carry smaller and fewer bombs per plane.

Alfred


Sorry - I should have said - these are all 500lb from B17's or B24's and Liberator II's carrying 8 or 10. (Although it is there in the reports).

At a rough estimate 2.5 hits would be somewhere around the 25 to 30% hit rate, depending on the mix.



apbarog -> RE: Night Bombing Overpowered? (1/25/2011 8:29:21 PM)

In my scenario 1 campaign game, my Allied opponent has used night bombing almost every night of the war. We do not have a house rule for this, so I have no problem with it, and will use it in the future when I can. My Japanese expansion stopped in May 1942, when I declined to go to Australia or India. My expansion range was fairly historical, with the extra captures of Noumea and Suva. My opponent started his counterattacking in the summer of 1943. From the beginning of the war, and especially during the year of little activity, he was able to use night bombing on a daily basis, hitting my bases in Burma, Port Moresby, Milne Bay, Rossel Island, and in Timor. Here is my perspective:

1. The Allied player is able to use night bombing as a training mission. This is only possible because the operational losses are at least as low as daylight bombing, maybe lower. You could not fly day after day and gain pilot skills if losses weren't so low.

2. The effect of bombings has generally been minimal. I suspect that the night bombing became more effective over time when the pilot skills increased to a high level. When that happened, bases in Burma started to be able to be shut down with just night bombing.

3. Japanese use of fighters at night is not effective. This is how it should be.

4. Allied heavy bombers shoot down too many Japanese fighters, even at night. Their effectiveness in daylight has been discussed in many other threads. I found that they are just as good at night. I had examples of putting up 30 Tojo's against 30 B24's, at night, losing 5 Tojo's to air-to-air, losing 4 Tojo's to ops losses, and having 0 B24's lost to any cause. I'd expect few, if any, losses for either side at night.

Put all these together, and the Japanese player has to abandon bases in range of Allied heavies. Against highly skilled Allied bomber pilots, they either get bombed on the ground, or shot in the air, at night.

My one suggestion is that the use of any aircraft, at night, for either side, should result in enough ops losses to negate any possibility of training bomber crews with the exclusive use of night bombing.



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Night Bombing Overpowered? (1/25/2011 8:36:11 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yakface


OK - you asked

Calcutta, Ledo, Imphal, Silchar, Chittagong, Comilla, Cox's Bazaar, Dacca, Tennant Creek, Alice Spring, Koumac, Umnack, Adak, Chunking, Nanyang, Changsha. Townsville.

Soon to be - Geraldton, Cookstown, Cairns

Couldn't tell you where all his aircraft are, but suffice it to say, I have bases on every front that can launch that sort of attack. If not, any size (5) could be built up to 8 which is sufficient and there is not lack of those anywhere.

Actually the whole thing is irrelevant, for two reasons

1. The 100 plane attack was coordinated from 3 bases - Ledo, Silchar and Comilla
2. My issue is not with the size of the attack, but with the number of base hits per plane - be there 100 or only 9


So you answered, sort of (Alice Springs? Really? To operate scores of heavy bombers from?) A, but not B. If he knows you have hundreds of heavy bombers in that range, and he has no AA sufficient to take out many of them at 6000 feet, and he parks his whole air force there with no AA, he deserves it.

That sort of time-on-target coordination, BTW, from THOSE bases at those separations, ought to be what you're complainig about. At night, in storms, from LEDO to COMILLA? Are you freaking kididng me? We'd have great difficulty doing that today, with sat comms and GPS.

As for hits, I'm not that concerned. If they could find the field, at 6000 feet, with those size bomb loads . . . That's the least of your concerns.



Yakface -> RE: Night Bombing Overpowered? (1/25/2011 8:44:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yakface


OK - you asked

Calcutta, Ledo, Imphal, Silchar, Chittagong, Comilla, Cox's Bazaar, Dacca, Tennant Creek, Alice Spring, Koumac, Umnack, Adak, Chunking, Nanyang, Changsha. Townsville.

Soon to be - Geraldton, Cookstown, Cairns

Couldn't tell you where all his aircraft are, but suffice it to say, I have bases on every front that can launch that sort of attack. If not, any size (5) could be built up to 8 which is sufficient and there is not lack of those anywhere.

Actually the whole thing is irrelevant, for two reasons

1. The 100 plane attack was coordinated from 3 bases - Ledo, Silchar and Comilla
2. My issue is not with the size of the attack, but with the number of base hits per plane - be there 100 or only 9


So you answered, sort of (Alice Springs? Really? To operate scores of heavy bombers from?) A, but not B. If he knows you have hundreds of heavy bombers in that range, and he has no AA sufficient to take out many of them at 6000 feet, and he parks his whole air force there with no AA, he deserves it.

That sort of time-on-target coordination, BTW, from THOSE bases at those separations, ought to be what you're complainig about. At night, in storms, from LEDO to COMILLA? Are you freaking kididng me? We'd have great difficulty doing that today, with sat comms and GPS.

As for hits, I'm not that concerned. If they could find the field, at 6000 feet, with those size bomb loads . . . That's the least of your concerns.



Oops sorry, yes Alice is only size 7 - only 88 bombers form there. He's in Daly Waters, so Alice is front line (for 4E's at least)

I agree with you on the coordination thing, however it doesn't matter. Coordination is only important if there is opposition. At night I don't care whether they go in in one group or as single aircraft. Bomb hits per bomber doesn't change so overall damage doesn't.

I think your last point is a good one. These bombers are finding the airfield in thunderstorms from 700 miles away. Never seem to fail to locate and ops losses certainly don't reflect the 'can't find my home base' which must have gone on.



PresterJohn001 -> RE: Night Bombing Overpowered? (1/25/2011 8:48:47 PM)

From my experience i think night bombing is a bit overpowered but a fighter unit on night duty reduces effectiveness considerably. A tweak may be helpful but its not out by much (don't want to make it completely pointless).



Yakface -> RE: Night Bombing Overpowered? (1/25/2011 8:50:57 PM)

OK here's some hard data. Picked a week at random.

27th Feb


Night Air attack on Broome , at 62,127

Weather in hex: Light rain
Raid detected at 74 NM, estimated altitude 8,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 25 minutes

Japanese aircraft
no flights


Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 3
B-17F Fortress x 3

Japanese aircraft losses
No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
B-17E Fortress: 1 damaged
B-17F Fortress: 1 damaged



Airbase hits 5
Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 29

6 bomber, 35 hits


28th Feb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Broome , at 62,127

Weather in hex: Severe storms
Raid spotted at 19 NM, estimated altitude 11,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 6 minutes


Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 3
B-17F Fortress x 4

Allied aircraft losses
B-17F Fortress: 1 damaged



Airbase hits 3
Runway hits 12

7 bombers, 15 hits


1st March


Night Air attack on Katherine , at 76,128

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Raid detected at 107 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 36 minutes


Allied aircraft
Liberator II x 3
B-24D Liberator x 20
B-24D1 Liberator x 15
PB4Y-1 Liberator x 4

Allied aircraft losses
Liberator II: 1 destroyed by flak
B-24D Liberator: 3 damaged
B-24D1 Liberator: 3 damaged



Airbase hits 6
Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 41

42 bombers, 48 hits

Night Air attack on Katherine , at 76,128

Weather in hex: Overcast

2nd March

Raid detected at 80 NM, estimated altitude 9,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 27 minutes


Allied aircraft
Liberator II x 3
B-24D Liberator x 16
B-24D1 Liberator x 9
PB4Y-1 Liberator x 9

Allied aircraft losses
B-24D Liberator: 2 damaged
B-24D1 Liberator: 1 damaged
B-24D1 Liberator: 1 destroyed by flak
PB4Y-1 Liberator: 1 damaged


Airbase hits 7
Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 121

37 bombers, 129 hits

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Broome , at 62,127

Weather in hex: Moderate rain
Raid detected at 108 NM, estimated altitude 11,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 37 minutes

Japanese aircraft
no flights


Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 3
B-17F Fortress x 10

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-15-II Babs: 1 destroyed on ground

Allied aircraft losses
B-17E Fortress: 1 damaged
B-17F Fortress: 4 damaged



Airbase hits 4
Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 33

13 bombers, 38 hits


3rd March


Night Air attack on Katherine , at 76,128

Weather in hex: Overcast
Raid detected at 78 NM, estimated altitude 9,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 26 minutes


Allied aircraft
Liberator II x 3
B-24D Liberator x 20
B-24D1 Liberator x 9
PB4Y-1 Liberator x 8

Allied aircraft losses
Liberator II: 1 damaged
B-24D Liberator: 5 damaged
B-24D1 Liberator: 1 damaged


Airbase hits 5
Runway hits 59

40 Bombers, 64 hits

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Broome , at 62,127

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud
Raid spotted at 27 NM, estimated altitude 6,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 9 minutes


Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 3
B-17F Fortress x 6

Allied aircraft losses
B-17E Fortress: 1 damaged
B-17F Fortress: 4 damaged



Airbase hits 2
Airbase supply hits 2
Runway hits 30

9 Bombers, 34 hits

4th March


Night Air attack on Katherine , at 76,128

Weather in hex: Heavy rain
Raid detected at 80 NM, estimated altitude 9,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 27 minutes


Allied aircraft
Liberator II x 3
B-24D Liberator x 16
B-24D1 Liberator x 10
PB4Y-1 Liberator x 4

Allied aircraft losses
Liberator II: 1 damaged
B-24D Liberator: 2 damaged
B-24D1 Liberator: 2 damaged
PB4Y-1 Liberator: 1 damaged


Airbase hits 1
Runway hits 39

33 Bombers, 39 hits

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Broome , at 62,127

Weather in hex: Overcast
Raid spotted at 54 NM, estimated altitude 9,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 16 minutes


Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 3

Allied aircraft losses
B-17E Fortress: 1 damaged



Airbase hits 1
Airbase supply hits 2
Runway hits 6

3 Bombers, 9 hits


5th March


Night Air attack on Katherine , at 76,128

Weather in hex: Heavy rain
Raid detected at 109 NM, estimated altitude 7,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 37 minutes


Allied aircraft
Liberator II x 3
B-24D Liberator x 12
B-24D1 Liberator x 3
PB4Y-1 Liberator x 5

Allied aircraft losses
Liberator II: 1 destroyed by flak
B-24D Liberator: 3 damaged
B-24D Liberator: 1 destroyed by flak
B-24D1 Liberator: 2 damaged
PB4Y-1 Liberator: 2 damaged



Airbase hits 8
Runway hits 34

23 Bombers, 42 hits

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Broome , at 62,127

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud
Raid spotted at 27 NM, estimated altitude 8,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 8 minutes


Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 3
B-17F Fortress x 6

Allied aircraft losses
B-17E Fortress: 1 damaged
B-17F Fortress: 1 destroyed by flak



Airbase hits 5
Runway hits 35

9 Bombers, 40 hits


Total bombs dropped: 2016
Total hits: 493
24.5% hit rate

As a general comment, weather was slightly worse this week than average - a number of thunderstorms/sever storms. No 'clear' turns





Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Night Bombing Overpowered? (1/25/2011 8:53:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yakface

I think your last point is a good one. These bombers are finding the airfield in thunderstorms from 700 miles away. Never seem to fail to locate and ops losses certainly don't reflect the 'can't find my home base' which must have gone on.


Yes, if they can find the base, they have intel on runway lay-outs and 6000 feet is low. Just fly down the heading and let go.

Most of this thread is about flying over jungle, but the game code has to allow night ops over ocean too, and there the visibility is better. You can tell land from sea in low light, so if your dead reckoning is half good and you can see any landmarks (volcanic mountains?) once you find the island, you can line up for an attack. As before, Japanese strikes on Wake from 1000+ miles in a previous thread.

My experience has been that night effectiveness is pretty poor, possibly becasue the AI almost always sends up fighters. I do it to harrass, but it's an open question if it's worth it in supply expenditure for what I get from it in Burma.



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Night Bombing Overpowered? (1/25/2011 8:57:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yakface

OK here's some hard data. Picked a week at random.



Per Alfred's point, a hit isn't necessarily one bomb exploding. "Hits" is tied to formulae that result in supply destruction and damage percentages. If you want to spend some time, you can start a head-to-head mini-game with FOW off, and the combat reports will tell you exactly how many supply points were destroyed in each case. You could then corelate it to bomber model, bomb size, etc. This is a case of simplicity in player feedback covering up a lot of under-the-hood.



khyberbill -> RE: Night Bombing Overpowered? (1/25/2011 9:00:41 PM)

I do some night bombing. At first, I found that an altitude of 5-6k was very effective. Then my foe put some AA in the hex and balloons/blimps. My losses didnt seem so bad, one or two B-17s or B24s a mission. Ooops... I am not making any more B-17s and few B24s. Now I only night bomb at 11k. Still have some losses from AA but no more barrage balloons-I am not sure what their maximum altitude is but for sure it is below 11k. Not nearly as effective bombing anymore. I just do it to keep my foe on his toes.



Nomad -> RE: Night Bombing Overpowered? (1/25/2011 9:17:27 PM)

As far as I can tell, having some fighters up on night CAP will seriously degrade the bombers accuracy. They will not shoot many if any down, they will usually damage a couple but the bombers will have a hard time hitting much.



Yakface -> RE: Night Bombing Overpowered? (1/25/2011 9:44:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yakface

OK here's some hard data. Picked a week at random.



Per Alfred's point, a hit isn't necessarily one bomb exploding. "Hits" is tied to formulae that result in supply destruction and damage percentages.


I'm fairly certain that one hit is one exploding bomb.

That's not actually what Alfred said. His point was A hit rate per bomber takes no account of the number of bombs carried and how big they are. Taking this into account I have changed the calculation to a hit rate per bomb dropped.

The average nightly result was 70 500lb hit delivered by 32 bombers dropping 285 bombs. Those averaged results with a tiny fraction of the airforce over 3 or 4 days are fairly clearly curtains for 1 maybe 2 bases.

I've got 4E's 350 available and god knows how many 2E. Things don't roll out straight line, but realistically IMO I have sufficient bombers and sufficient airfields to close all bases in - for example, the entire Burma theatre using just night bombing.

quote:


If you want to spend some time, you can start a head-to-head mini-game with FOW off, and the combat reports will tell you exactly how many supply points were destroyed in each case. You could then corelate it to bomber model, bomb size, etc. This is a case of simplicity in player feedback covering up a lot of under-the-hood.


Overkill - life's too short.



Yakface -> RE: Night Bombing Overpowered? (1/25/2011 9:47:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nomad

As far as I can tell, having some fighters up on night CAP will seriously degrade the bombers accuracy. They will not shoot many if any down, they will usually damage a couple but the bombers will have a hard time hitting much.


I'll have a go at that. You will see from the second post in this thread I did try night intercepts with 120 fighters. Although they did drop the hit rate to almost nothing my fighters got slaughtered in return. Maybe small numbers of Nicks will be enough to put the bombers off their stride without taking serious losses.



Yakface -> RE: Night Bombing Overpowered? (1/25/2011 9:55:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: khyberbill

I do some night bombing. At first, I found that an altitude of 5-6k was very effective. Then my foe put some AA in the hex and balloons/blimps. My losses didnt seem so bad, one or two B-17s or B24s a mission. Ooops... I am not making any more B-17s and few B24s.


...and then you start building B24D1's, PBY Liberators, British Liberators, B24J's and then some B29's....



Nomad -> RE: Night Bombing Overpowered? (1/25/2011 9:55:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yakface

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nomad

As far as I can tell, having some fighters up on night CAP will seriously degrade the bombers accuracy. They will not shoot many if any down, they will usually damage a couple but the bombers will have a hard time hitting much.


I'll have a go at that. You will see from the second post in this thread I did try night intercepts with 120 fighters. Although they did drop the hit rate to almost nothing my fighters got slaughtered in return. Maybe small numbers of Nicks will be enough to put the bombers off their stride without taking serious losses.


That result does not make my statement true. I said nothing about and losses expected. I wonder if it had to do with using LRCAP? I don't remember seeing that problem using CAP( I have not played any turns as Japan for weeks. )

Maybe one my opponets, Puhis, can shed some light on his losses against my bombers? With FOW I don't want to make any claims of his losses.



EUBanana -> RE: Night Bombing Overpowered? (1/25/2011 11:05:13 PM)

There's some funny business going on with bomber versus night fighters. The night fighters seem to get creamed. The bombers do considerably better at shooting down fighters at night then they do during the day - presumably they wouldn't be able to hit a bean really at night.



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Night Bombing Overpowered? (1/25/2011 11:19:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yakface

Overkill - life's too short.


Your call. I guess it's easier to complain.



Yakface -> RE: Night Bombing Overpowered? (1/25/2011 11:57:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yakface

Overkill - life's too short.


Your call. I guess it's easier to complain.


Lol - I've spent hours working counting the hits 43 days of attacks, Working out the average, Counting the numbers of bombs dropped and the average hit per bomb, formatting the AAR to make things easier to read.

My statement was not an indication that I am unwilling to put the time in to get important features out. Just that what you are suggesting is of no value to the discussion. Working out, how many supply points are lost for a particular bomb size, to be brutal, is beyond pointless. I and most others know what the effect of 70x500lb bombs per night hitting a base.



CV2 -> RE: Night Bombing Overpowered? (1/26/2011 2:19:11 AM)

The basic flaw of this game is it assumes that there is only 1 airfield in a hex. This of course is NOT true, but it is far too easy to "close" a base. Even a tiny island like Iwo Jima had 3 (or at least had 3 in the works).



brian800000 -> RE: Night Bombing Overpowered? (1/26/2011 5:13:06 AM)

I don't have that strong of an opinion on night bombing of airfields, and am not that educated on the topic. But I don't agree with house rules that prevent Japan from being reduced to rubble from night bombing, because that is what happened.



LoBaron -> RE: Night Bombing Overpowered? (1/26/2011 5:16:23 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CV2

The basic flaw of this game is it assumes that there is only 1 airfield in a hex. This of course is NOT true, but it is far too easy to "close" a base. Even a tiny island like Iwo Jima had 3 (or at least had 3 in the works).


Not neccesarily. As far as the game is concerned it is an abstraction of the total air capacity in this hex.
What you make of that is entirely you decision, so if you want to assume you got 3 airfields at Iwo Jima, go ahead. [;)]

Edit: I agree that small bases are too easy to close. I think this was already mentioned some time.
A dust strip with 2 tents usually is very hard to close down.

This does not apply to large airfields which I think are quite right.



HansBolter -> RE: Night Bombing Overpowered? (1/26/2011 12:29:38 PM)

I haven't read every post but have skimmed and gotten the gist. I haven't seen one person comment on altitude. Don't most people use a house rule requiring 4Es to operate at 10k or higher? Could the low altitude be having an impact on the effectiveness?


I have only played through early '43, but my experience with night fighters is that they experience a plethora of mechanical failures. At first I thought it was just becuse Blenhiem 1Fs were worthless planes, but as soon as I assigned some Fulmer IIs to night CAP they started suffering the same oil pressure problems as the Blennies. What is it about night that causes oil pressure to drop? Why is it that no night fighter ever successfully intercepts because it's oil pressure fails?



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