Illogical occurrences in pockets? (Full Version)

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micha1100 -> Illogical occurrences in pockets? (1/29/2011 7:37:50 PM)

I'm playing with the latest official patch and noticed some strange incidents. I'm sorry if things like these have been discussed before, unfortunately I currently don't have the time to browse this forum.

1. City populations seem to relocate even when the cities have been surrounded for more than one turn - how do the civilists get through the frontlines?

2. When a unit routs or surrenders, they first retreat one hex (if they can). If this move brings them adjacent to an HQ or airbase, those make a relocation move as if they were in danger. Is this realistic?

3. Do routed units surrender? I seems to me that pocketed routed units simply jump out of the pocket with a relocation move. I'm not quite certain about this but when routed units that were in pockets disappear there does not seem to be rise in losses equivalent to a surrender.

4. In September 1941 routed Soviet units have staged a counter-offensive and retaken Bryansk which slowed my drive on Moscow (those units probably were to the Northeast of Bryansk the turn before). Is there any explanation for their heroics?



Rugens -> RE: Illogical occurrences in pockets? (1/29/2011 7:51:28 PM)

If you rout an enemy unit the same turn a pocket is closed it will rout thru your units and go outside the pocket. If you close the pocket on one turn and wait until the following turn to finish the units off, instead of routing out of the pocket they will usually surrender. I assume there must be something like an isolated status that is added at the end of the turn.



micha1100 -> RE: Illogical occurrences in pockets? (1/29/2011 8:55:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Carl Rugenstein

If you rout an enemy unit the same turn a pocket is closed it will rout thru your units and go outside the pocket.

I know this, but this is not what I mean. I was speaking about instances where I surround (but not move adjacent to) an already routed enemy unit. So at the end of my turn there is an isolated routed enemy unit. In my next turn, with the pocket still intact, the routed unit is either gone or disappears when I move one of my units adjacent to it. In both cases no surrender is reported and I believe (but am not sure) that there is no increase in losses euivalent to the surrender that should have happened.


quote:

If you close the pocket on one turn and wait until the following turn to finish the units off, instead of routing out of the pocket they will usually surrender.


Yes, but that is only so if the unit is not routed at the start of the current or the next turn.



CharonJr -> RE: Illogical occurrences in pockets? (1/29/2011 9:27:16 PM)

Yes, I had the same happening to me. I know that some units in pocket will surrender on their own, but I have seen units vanishing without a surrender message or battle indicator and have seen unrouted units vanishing inside pockets when I move a unit next to them, too.

So there might be a bug (it was either with 1.03 beta 1 or 2).

edit: There is another thread about this, seems it is a bug and it is being fixed, savefile would be helpful.



Joel Billings -> RE: Illogical occurrences in pockets? (1/29/2011 10:41:42 PM)

Check this thread for info on AI illegal move bugs: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2708202

HQ's, airbases and depleted units will warp away when you move next to them if they are not stacked with a combat unit with at least 1 CV. If in a pocket, HQ's and airbases will take their rout losses and then reappear outside of the pocket. Depleted units should be destroyed.



micha1100 -> RE: Illogical occurrences in pockets? (1/30/2011 4:15:03 PM)

Okay, thank you.

What about my points 1 and 2?



runyan99 -> RE: Illogical occurrences in pockets? (1/31/2011 8:02:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

Check this thread for info on AI illegal move bugs: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2708202

HQ's, airbases and depleted units will warp away when you move next to them if they are not stacked with a combat unit with at least 1 CV. If in a pocket, HQ's and airbases will take their rout losses and then reappear outside of the pocket. Depleted units should be destroyed.


I believe I'm seeing this bug with rifle divisions. In a game of Road to Leningrad. My opponent has the city surrounded, but routed units are appearing 50 or 60 miles to the east on the outside of the encirclement.



Helpless -> RE: Illogical occurrences in pockets? (1/31/2011 11:04:38 PM)

quote:

1. City populations seem to relocate even when the cities have been surrounded for more than one turn - how do the civilists get through the frontlines?


Population in the cites represent the whole region, not just the one in the city. Also, in game migration mechanics simplified so it is triggered when you attack the city itself and not when you approaching it as it would be historically. Therefore pop migration ignores hex control.




Jakerson -> RE: Illogical occurrences in pockets? (2/1/2011 2:53:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: micha1100
2. When a unit routs or surrenders, they first retreat one hex (if they can). If this move brings them adjacent to an HQ or airbase, those make a relocation move as if they were in danger. Is this realistic?

3. Do routed units surrender? I seems to me that pocketed routed units simply jump out of the pocket with a relocation move. I'm not quite certain about this but when routed units that were in pockets disappear there does not seem to be rise in losses equivalent to a surrender.


Pockets dosent fully close until you end your turn and defender is not able to break out from pocket or establish brigehead to avoid total isolation from logistic system.

I think it is only fair that game works this way as this is turn based game defenders are not allowed to do anything while pockets is formed they just sit passive without doing anything at all historically defender always attempted to avoid getting in the pockets.

Forcing attacker spend at least one turn to clear and form the pocket simulates the time that is needed to use to clear the pocket if game would allow attacker to form pocket and clear it same turn attacker could virtually make pocket and advance same pace than just pushing forward.

Now attacker need to make a choice do I push forward more or do I spend time to clear the pocket witch is more historical than being able to just push forward same pace with pockets or no.



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