defending the blizzard in 41. (Full Version)

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bloomstombs2 -> defending the blizzard in 41. (2/5/2011 2:07:31 AM)

Just want to know. Do I need to double stack units?

I plan on digging in heavily, and giving them flak guns with 88 mm for defense.

I assume the riverline will not help me, and nor will the marshes since they will be frozen. Is that correct?

Any other input would be appreciated.




2ndACR -> RE: defending the blizzard in 41. (2/5/2011 2:13:00 AM)

Good luck......how is that for advice. LOL

Seriously, double stack is okay, but use every town and city to it's fullest. Cities get 2 units, towns get 1 unit. Try to protect as many units as you can.

Even level 4 forts will not protect you for long. You might stop the first couple attacks, but then he will crush you, and once thru your line, that is all she wrote.



bloomstombs2 -> RE: defending the blizzard in 41. (2/5/2011 2:17:30 AM)

Ok should I defend or marhes and river lines or no, should i prefer light woods to them? Im already planning to use towns and cities. Im considering using reserve units as well.



krieger -> RE: defending the blizzard in 41. (2/5/2011 2:21:20 AM)

I'd like to recomend you reading pages 289 and 290 of the manual. For example:

22.3.5. MITIGATION OF FIRST WINTER RULES IN CITIES
Axis units located in town, city and urban hexes can mitigate the first winter rules regarding damaged ground elements and morale losses to some extent. Any units in an urban hex will not suffer damage to their ground elements or morale losses during the logistics phase. In a city hex, the two units with the highest CV’s will not be impacted. In a town hex, one unit with the highest CV is eligible to avoid the penalty, but only if die(4) is less than or equal to the population value of the town.
Game Play Tip: Axis Allies will suffer greatly from first winter effects due to their normally low experience and morale. Place them on garrison duty in town, city and urban hexes if possible to mitigate the effects of “General Winter.”

I got crazy checking each town's populations (is there an easy way?), initially try to use 1 unit until that position is threteaned, and try to get towns with a population of 4 (cause 1 unit can spend the whole winter in one of these) or at least 3, 2 or 1. Never settle too much in towns with a 0 population as it's like being in the open in regards to firtst winter rules for the axis player.



2ndACR -> RE: defending the blizzard in 41. (2/5/2011 2:25:00 AM)

Try for the shortest line you can. Rivers offer no help. They freeze over, watch out for those lakes, I think they become passable after a few turns of blizzard.

Mountains are always good too because well they are rough hexes and they are rough to take. LOL

Marshes are bugged so right now they offer some serious advantages, will change with new patch.

And do not depend on your allies except Finns and mountain troops. Get all allied into towns and forts (non mountain that is). They take forever to rebuild and the blizzard will literally destroy them.



bloomstombs2 -> RE: defending the blizzard in 41. (2/5/2011 2:28:37 AM)

Its july , Im forming my defensive line now :)




2ndACR -> RE: defending the blizzard in 41. (2/5/2011 2:31:04 AM)

LOL, getting a big head start. Key is to get a nice sized buffer zone. Then fall back and force him to burn a few turns advancing to your defense line. Only works good in the Center and south. South the best.



PeeDeeAitch -> RE: defending the blizzard in 41. (2/5/2011 2:59:21 AM)

Some tips I have learned (the hard way), not necessarily the best advice, just what comes to me so far:

1 - As mentioned above, keep in mind the population of the towns, any "4" is gold, it will hold a unit nice and snug. Build your line to have as many towns as you can, and man (to raise the fortifications) of fall-back towns.
2 - Have backup troops to rotate into your line, troops out in the open (never mind the fortifications, I mean outside of cities and towns)will be hit hard and will need to recuperate on railheads.
3 - Mobile troops should be in garrisons in cities (2 units) or urban (all 3 units), but these CAN help out if close to the line. Use them as strike and pull back fire brigades, but note they need to end their turn back in the city or urban (or town if one is there). This can help limit breakthroughs, blunt attacks, or even perhaps rescue a unit.
4 - Give ground.  Pulling back your line slowly in front of the Soviets does not allow them to massively attack, it takes the bite out of the first month (at least) of the winter, which is the harshest month.
5 - Your mountain troops are gold. While not supermen, and they will wear down, a mountain division split into regiments can hold a fair width of front and keep off a lot of attacks. If there are prepared defenses for them to fall back to, they are even more effective. Even the three Romanian mountain brigades are worth their weight in gold.
6 - Try and keep a line, or at least what might pass for a line, along your front. This will make infiltrating Soviet cavalry troops less able to cut off your units.



CarnageINC -> RE: defending the blizzard in 41. (2/5/2011 5:21:55 AM)

My advice from my pbem game is that digging in deep deep does you nothing.  In one turn he can push you out of most of your defensive positions forcing you to fall back or face encirclement for the ones he couldn't.  I spent a lot of AP building fortified positions in depth for a lot of my southern lines and I feel that they didn't really help at all.  Once he cracks part of your line and penetrates...poof...you must pull back and all that AP spent on a well dug in position gone because you don't want to be encircled. 

The only good winter defense is depth, be mobile not tied to a defensive line.  Don't do full on attacks in the snow but prepare your lines for the Soviet offensive.  Shorten up where you can and pull all your mobile units back to use as reserves, because your going to need them all along the front sooner or later.  The only attacks I would make in the snow is spoiling attacks on as many enemy units as you can.  Some people will suggest you keep attacking with your mobile units in the snow but IMO it just exposes them to enemy attacks and the blizzard to soon therefore wasting away their valuable CV that you will definitely need for fire brigade duties. 



Flaviusx -> RE: defending the blizzard in 41. (2/5/2011 5:25:58 AM)

Carnage, the forts do help. They force the Soviet to concentrate his attacks. Once the German is out in the open, they can disperse and launch more attacks...and even hasty attacks. Cavalry really comes into its own at this point if properly used.

It's particularly annoying as a Soviet having to waste the first and best month of blizzard clearing out a strong fortline. You would have felt those attacks a lot more deeply in the open.




Klydon -> RE: defending the blizzard in 41. (2/5/2011 5:28:16 AM)

Putting 88's in your units won't necessarily help you as the tank brigades are really not your biggest concern, but rather the infantry will do the heavy lifting for the Russians in 1941 and the cav is far more dangerous in attacking and outflanking, etc.

Several have suggested putting stug support units with the mountain troops as they will be protected by the mountain units from the weather.

Fortified hexes in the rough are brutal for the Russians to dig you out of and should be built up as key defensive points after your urban areas. Swamp/river lines mean zip with the freezing. Woods doesn't seem to offer much to the defense. Heavy woods are another matter, but there is not usually much of them where the Germans are in 1941 typically.



2ndACR -> RE: defending the blizzard in 41. (2/5/2011 5:28:37 AM)

Yes, forts help. Just don't trust them to hold all winter. Be ready to break and run for hopefully the next defense line.



CarnageINC -> RE: defending the blizzard in 41. (2/5/2011 5:32:48 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Carnage, the forts do help. They force the Soviet to concentrate his attacks. Once the German is out in the open, they can disperse and launch more attacks...and even hasty attacks. Cavalry really comes into its own at this point if properly used.

It's particularly annoying as a Soviet having to waste the first and best month of blizzard clearing out a strong fortline. You would have felt those attacks a lot more deeply in the open.



I feel that the primary defensive line was a good thing, but once the Soviets have you moving a secondary defensive line feels like it does nothing IMO. If you were to have a secondary one it must be a solid one, not a checker board like I did. A smart opponent would use the unfortified opening and force you back out of the fortified one to avoid encirclement. My next game I'm not going to expend AP's on fortified zones and see what happens. I'm just not sold on a dug in defense for secondary positions.



CarnageINC -> RE: defending the blizzard in 41. (2/5/2011 5:39:07 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Klydon

Putting 88's in your units won't necessarily help you as the tank brigades are really not your biggest concern, but rather the infantry will do the heavy lifting for the Russians in 1941 and the cav is far more dangerous in attacking and outflanking, etc.

Several have suggested putting stug support units with the mountain troops as they will be protected by the mountain units from the weather.


I quite agree with Klydon about the Soviet armor, not a big issue, the Cav is where you want to watch where they go. Be sure to have some reserves to counter any moves a concentrated Cav force can make.

Putting stug in with your Mnt Troops is an excellent thing to do. It adds that much more to their CV's.



Encircled -> RE: defending the blizzard in 41. (2/5/2011 12:11:19 PM)

I tried with no fortified zones, and though I have survived the blizzard, I got blasted back to a line just outside the axis Narva-Pskov-Mogliev-Gomel-Sumy-lower dniepr. If there had been one more turn of blizzard, Ninth army would have collapsed and Pskov would have fallen.

Level four forts in the North held the enemy outside Leningrad for about a month, but when I got pushed out, my infantry divisons had about 5,000 men each (not attacked at all, just lost due to the weather)

I'm going to try more fortifications next time, and use the towns a lot more as defensive lynch pins, and pull back in front of overwhelming force, but I'm guessing for that to work you have to be a hell of a lot further forward than I managed.

Mountain troops are gold dust

In regards to Pz Corps attacks in the blizzard, they only work attacking from a city hex and against nothing stronger than a rifle division, tank brigade or cavalry.

If you get encircled, you have had it, as you lack the offensive firepower to break through (in my experience!)

And a quick question, how do you find out the populations of towns?



PeeDeeAitch -> RE: defending the blizzard in 41. (2/5/2011 1:02:33 PM)

Finding the population - click on the dot, then click on the town name on the upper right of the game screen.



bloomstombs2 -> RE: defending the blizzard in 41. (2/5/2011 3:56:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeeDeeAitch

Finding the population - click on the dot, then click on the town name on the upper right of the game screen.

quote:

click on the town name on the upper right of the game screen.

_____________________________


Do fortifications protect you from winter attritions like towns do?



cookie monster -> RE: defending the blizzard in 41. (2/5/2011 4:06:46 PM)

nope



bloomstombs2 -> RE: defending the blizzard in 41. (2/5/2011 10:13:35 PM)

Thanks.

I was wondering how I could make them better.

Would stugs be a waste in them? mixed flak battallions with the 88s?

Machine guns?

What can I attach to these guys to stop infantry and something I have alot of.

Kinda the reason I want to put flak on them. I have alot of those. Not very many stugs. I attached most of my stugs to my spearhead panzers.



2ndACR -> RE: defending the blizzard in 41. (2/5/2011 10:35:04 PM)

Just sacrifice a couple goats and say your prayers. Surviving the blizzard is just plain hard. Even without a single attack all blizzard long, my army was wracked with attrition losses that in June I am still trying to recover.



bloomstombs2 -> RE: defending the blizzard in 41. (2/5/2011 10:50:53 PM)

Did you put as many of them in towns and cities as you could? Just wondering if they were still attritted when in towns and cities.



2ndACR -> RE: defending the blizzard in 41. (2/5/2011 11:03:15 PM)

Some places, you just have to suck it up. Cannot protect everyone. My armor came thru at full strength. Still took attrition losses to my infantry in 1 and 0 population towns though. Not nearly enough really good towns to form a line on.

I will say this, any unit outside in the open will end the blizzard with 50% strength. And it takes a long time to rebuild from it. At least in my game it did. I still have units rebuilding strength.



PeeDeeAitch -> RE: defending the blizzard in 41. (2/5/2011 11:14:52 PM)

The only thing I can say is that the more times you face it, the better you can get at it. The first time is "OH CRAP" as your line evaporates, the 4th (for me) is "OH CRAP" as your line doesn't quite evaporate and you are pushed back 150 miles...



bloomstombs2 -> RE: defending the blizzard in 41. (2/5/2011 11:21:05 PM)

Im trying to destroy as many soviets CU as I can before winter sets in. hopefully that will make all the difference.



krieger -> RE: defending the blizzard in 41. (2/5/2011 11:38:02 PM)

Moscow area is nice with several pop4 towns in which to stablish strongpoints, but you need a buffer zone in the Tula area to retreat through till the line Kaluga-Maloyaroslavets-Naro Fominsk- Podolsk-E Moscow. To the north Dimitrov, Klin and Kalinin are mandatory anchor points imo. If any of the mentioned towns fall, I'd seriously consider evacuating the russian capital then. To the west of Moscow there is vast area with virtually no protection in towns during winter due to their pop is 0 or sometimes 1. Other interesting areas: Briansk, in the area between Kiev-Kursk and Kiev-Kharkov, around Stalino. Shelter in the northern front towns is pityfull, so taking Leningrad in 41 gets even more important. If you get to cross the Don in 41 there are some interesting areas for the winter but I dont think an area so fur ahead is viable in front of the russian counteroffensive, also due to rail convertion issues.



PeeDeeAitch -> RE: defending the blizzard in 41. (2/6/2011 12:21:54 AM)

The south is good territory to go as far you can in - sure you might be TOO far, but when winter hits a screen of units (and this is where your mountain troops usually are) can pull back slowly. The south is wide open, and land lost can be made up in the spring.

I think the key for defense in the south is the Stalino region - there are lots of towns that can be held and the line of cities/urban should be a rock.

The central region actually, from Kharkov to Tula seems to be where I get hit the worst each time - admittedly only in vs AI games as I learn how to play.



catski -> RE: defending the blizzard in 41. (2/24/2011 11:37:24 PM)

Ive survived the blizzard by buliding loads of forts through out the whole front but now all my units have no strenghth left and its 2nd of july with loads of soviets in front of me.



PeeDeeAitch -> RE: defending the blizzard in 41. (2/25/2011 1:35:23 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: catski

Ive survived the blizzard by buliding loads of forts through out the whole front but now all my units have no strenghth left and its 2nd of july with loads of soviets in front of me.



Are you playing the latest beta? Bugs fixing TOE upgrades and replacements have been fixed, units in Beta 6 (the latest) come out of winter with better CVs now.

Also, falling back in winter, perversly, brings the Soviets out of entrenchments and when the snows come again (oh, blessed snow) one can hit them harder.



mmarquo -> RE: defending the blizzard in 41. (2/25/2011 8:18:29 PM)

My thoughts FWIW:

1. Absolutely crush the Soviets in the 1941 summer and fall; yes - this does hurt them
2. Force evacuations of as many HI/armament/population centers as possible
3. Do not get emotionally attached to anything in Russia; come the fall = fall back.
4. Fall back, fall back west to jump off positions for the Spring Offensive 1942.
5. Prepare a nice trap for the advancing Soviets come the spring. The real Barbarossa should begin in the Spring of 1942 - the following winters/blizzards are much easier to handle. Unless you can totally win in 1941 (you can't and won't), then it is not productive to destroy the Wehrmacht in 1941 and then try to rebuild it in early 1942.
6. Take Leningrad in 1941 if only disprupt Soviet production; also free up the Finns. Alternatively throw everything at Moscow but this means not doing much in the South or North.
7. Remember: Barbarossa starts in 1942; 1941 is foreplay.

Marquo [:)]



bevans -> RE: defending the blizzard in 41. (2/25/2011 8:37:47 PM)

I agree with Marquo on 4) and 7); in fact, I agree so strongly that I modded the game to start in Aug '41 so you can have no illusion of great things that can be accomplished before winter. I also have random weather and you will always get a mud turn in the first four or five weeks. Each side starts with an extra 6 weeks of production in their respective pools and some extra APs to reflect the later start. I have upgraded all the Axis TOEs for '42 and beyond and taken 10 infantry divisions out of the reinforcement cycle and replaced them with partially equipped cavalry brigades and two Pz corps (total +/- in everything except tanks is a wash and the motorized/pz divs are at 10% afv strength so will need to be built up out of the pool or new production). The production capacity of both the Axis and SU have been upgraded (10-20%). Twelve turns in and still advancing but slowly due to mud; will soon be falling back and expect won't be far east of the start line come the spring of '42. Then the real Barbarossa will start.



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