I'm tired of 4x (Full Version)

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thiosk -> I'm tired of 4x (2/7/2011 9:55:09 PM)

Distant Worlds is a great game, as I've posted before, and the designers are to be commended.
However, theres something I really want; a niche that has never, to my knowledge, been filled. (note: i havn't had time to play through the expansion yet, waiting for some time then i'm buying it)

Distant worlds falls into one trap that every space-epic game falls into: the colony rush. Honestly, I hate the colony rush. We have discovered FTL travel! OH, um, so have 10 other bloodsucking alien races which happen to live here too. QUICK TAKE ALL THE PLANETS YOU CAN! FASTER! FAAAAASTER!!! DECLARE WAR ON ANYONE WHO GETS TOO CLOSE!!!!! This breeds conflict, and makes for a nice 4x game. But, its not really the space-epic game I want to play.

What I want is more of a management game; a building game. A true Simcity->simSpace. The galactic game we were promised when Spore was announced back in 2006. At its heart, this is what I think DW is; an outer-space economic simulation, that happens to have space battles and a colony rush.

My favorite thing to do in DW? Economic expansion. I love to see the private fleets buzzing around, sucking ore off various planets and transporting it elsewhere. I love to seek out the mineral-rich worlds and plant factories on them, slurping metal and shipping it back to the homeworld for exploitation; drawing gas from the hot cores of gas giants. My problem is, what do you do with all this glorious material? Planets take care of themselves; theres no demand for anything other than luxuries. So you take those materials, stockpile them massively, and you build more ships. And then you take those ships to enemy planets, and you pew pew.

There are so many things to do with material. Dyson spheres. How about artifical planets? ringworlds? Neutron star mining? Towing stars? An empire that spans the cosmos should be able to attain godlike power, and it should require a lot of special projects to get all the way there. OH, none of this fits with a 4x game, you say! You don't need all that when the goal is focused on the 4x's! Well, I say, I'm tired of 4x! I've been 4xing it since I was 7!

So what do I really want? I want the best of Spore merged with the best of DW. How would I envision this happening?

Spore allowed a free-wheeling empire building. Functionally limitless space; there were so many stars and planets that even in a fairly crowded area it felt like enough "space." Second, there was no real "time" axis; you had to go in and fiddle with things to get stuff to happen-- plopping down cities and terraforming and what not. If you wanted to really work on one planet for hours and get it just the way you wanted, great! More or less, mostly everything else will take care of itself, except spore had the terrible "oh help us in 2 minutes or less!" warnings every five seconds that got realllly annoying. But the rest of it, nonlinear time axis, procedural simulation, the way planets appear as you find them rather than uncover preexisting ones-- there is so much potential power for a 4x sim that is squandered for cuteness.


Heres another way to think about what I want: a sort of Dungeon Keeper meets Dwarven Fortress in Spaaaaace.

SO, matrix and codeforce, ball is in your court. You can keep the same game, same races, same system, just retool the idea, focus, and economy of the game, wrap it up, and sell it as a standalone game. Hell, what I want is basically a glorified mod. Look what Stardock is doing with Elemental War of Magic-- they are continuing with expansions for war of magic, but are taking the engine and concept in a totally different direction with Fallen Enchantress-- the expansion pack that isn't.

I'm bored of 4x, i'm ready for SimX.



Data -> RE: I'm tired of 4x (2/7/2011 10:09:39 PM)

That is something that I think we all want....for me it would be kinda Caesar4 in space; that was a truly maginificent game for building an economy, trade and taking care of your subjects.

Also we all dream about "Dyson spheres. How about artifical planets? ringworlds? Neutron star mining? Towing stars?...." and here you indeed want spore or age of empires models: to go from the first warp drive vessel to doing all the godlike power stuff

It's a complex task for even large developer teams and we have only Elliot; but we do have a private sector outside our control and also an universe that makes you feel like you're in space....maybe the rest will come in time

I fully agree with you and want the same things but I'm not yet tired of 4x as it is now and when I want to get the experience you seek I go to Space Rangers 2 for example.



hewwo -> RE: I'm tired of 4x (2/7/2011 10:14:37 PM)

completely agree! This game is very close I think. All we need is better resource & fuel mechanics and this game would be it. Maybe next expansion :)



gwgardner -> RE: I'm tired of 4x (2/7/2011 10:20:31 PM)

Could you achieve what you want by using the largest galaxy, with only one alien race? I haven't played the game, so I'm asking. I too would prefer that kind of mode.



ASHBERY76 -> RE: I'm tired of 4x (2/7/2011 10:26:07 PM)

I want a 4x galaxy simulation game too like MOO3 was going to be before it was lobotomized before release.Leaders,government systems,realistic diplomacy,internal factions.Chains of command,ethos..

I would also like Emperor of the fading suns with modern graphics and UI.

I expect neither.



Data -> RE: I'm tired of 4x (2/7/2011 10:32:23 PM)

yes, that would be closer to the experience but still light years away from our dreams; don't forget the pivotal question

"My problem is, what do you do with all this glorious material?"

this problem would still remain. The game thiosk (and I as well) dreams about is a game for explorers, peacefull builders and scientists....I'll bet it's even outside the 4x realm as it is atm; the extermination would need to be kept to a minimal and it would need to be secondary to exploration and expansion.

Hard to see how we would pack all our dreams in one single game...it would be huuuge.



Erik Rutins -> RE: I'm tired of 4x (2/7/2011 11:10:22 PM)

Distant Worlds supports this playstyle to a degree depending on your choices in galactic aggressiveness and race and government types in the galaxy. We'd like to allow it to support this more, along with many other playstyles. There are many, many areas where we can do a lot more. [8D]

Regards,

- Erik



Igard -> RE: I'm tired of 4x (2/7/2011 11:10:29 PM)

I think it's all about creating more options for players. We need more to do and then, maybe we can start thinking about a game where war and colony rushing are only optional ways of playing. Each race should get a unique tech tree that reflects their characteristics. Tractor beams, so we can move valuable asteroids closer to the mining base and move space creatures to safe locations.

One question I've been asking since the games release is, Why do I need to kill all the space creatures I encounter? I've considered that some races might try to harvest the creatures for food (building a Kaltor farm), or they might simply take them to somewhere out of sight where they can live in peace (the starfleet way), or they can still just shoot them (that's probably what the galactic empire would do).

Another point I'd like to bring up is a border system. It's a highly debatable subject, but I'd like to see something put in place. It would probably be best to make it optional as well since I know alot of players like the game the way it is. If we had a border system we could go about our business more freely safe in the knowledge that we have control over our region without another empire moving in next to our home system. However we would need more to do inside our empire if this were the case.



Bingeling -> RE: I'm tired of 4x (2/7/2011 11:48:24 PM)

For me space creature farms would be a waste of time.

When it comes to more control/fun with the private sector, it would be nice with a bit more info about their doings. For instance, where it goes to/from could be printed when you open up details like cargo (or even in the mission statement on the info box when the ship is selected "transporting caslon from xxx to yyy").

When it comes to borders, I am a bit torn. I like the map best when it is "my area", "your area", at the same time placing a distant colony could become too powerful, and something the player surely will outclass the AI at. One could maybe include some exclusion zones around the capital. A fun idea could be that such a zone could be declared, at the expense of lowered reputation and a risk for others to declare war. Another possibility could be a realm of influence. Massive colonies influence systems nearby, making it likely that smaller (or unhappy) colonies there switch side. Such a zone should be visible as long as you are aware of the major colony. The capital could have an influence boost, but something would have to be done to avoid the capital status being moved around.

Edit: Wrong reply button, it was supposed to be for Igard of course.



Igard -> RE: I'm tired of 4x (2/8/2011 12:00:50 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bingeling

For me space creature farms would be a waste of time.



Then don't build them. Like I said, it's about giving more options to the player for things to do in their empire. Once you have your creature farm, you can either begin extracting resources from it, or you could begin performing experiments to enhance your research. To fight the bugs, we must first understand the bugs.

Finding space creatures no longer means killing on sight, but instead is a new opportunity to study a new life form.



thiosk -> RE: I'm tired of 4x (2/8/2011 12:08:00 AM)

For me, the spammyness of the colony rush can be rectified in a simple, but not always fun, way.

Material upkeep.

As a planet develops, it requires large amounts of steel, polymer, carbon fibre, etcetera. Enormous quantities. Putting a colony on a planet should be more than letting population grow and bringing in luxuries; it should require gigatons of strategic resources per point of population and per point of development. How many tons of building material are required to build a small city? Scale that up to 5 billion screaming peasants.

Further, it should require a certain amount of resource "flow" to keep those development levels. In this way, strategic resources will actually require strategy and development, and would need to be monitored and invested in. Question: has ANYONE EVER run out of steel? If not, whats the point of the resource again?

A massive colonization spree would drive demand for simple resources through the roof. Such demand would squelch resources from upkeep, causing development to deteriorate. Too many developed worlds would have too high an upkeep to allow for a rapid pace of colonization, without the industrial and research base to support it. Stars containing only asteroids would suddenly be worth fighting over in a long game, and pirate raids on base resource extractors would suddenly actually hit the pocket.

Would this kind of economy be "fun" in a traditional 4x sense? No, i'm not sure it would be, too complicated to beginners, especially. Is it the kind of thing I want? YES IT TOTALLY IS. A properly balanced system would SOLVE colony spam outright. An epic game would become truly epic.

DO IT. Or, someone, mod it-- i can help with the design principles but I'm no coder :(

Edit: Now take the requirement for constant shipments and upkeep flow, and add that to the fuel extraction and conversion cost, and you have real functional limit to the true range of your colonization. All those freighters carting trillions of tons of metal and carbon to a world require a lot of fuel. You may have to mothball a planet that is too far away to support. And suddenly dumping research and investment into improved cargo holds and extractor rates becomes a real pressing issue for the burgeoning empire.

edit edit: As for kraltor farms, i think thats a fun idea. I'd tame them and use them as autonomous patrol units; maybe a herd of them could wander with a couple ships in system to hunt pirates or other undesirables.



WoodMan -> RE: I'm tired of 4x (2/8/2011 12:37:16 AM)

Anything that slows down the game and makes things more Epic (but not overly and pointlessly complex) gets my vote.  As long as the AI can keep up of course.  This is just a general statement, not solely aimed at Distant Worlds, but all games in general [:)]



Noble713 -> RE: I'm tired of 4x (2/8/2011 2:42:58 AM)

thiosk I really like your material upkeep idea. It adds to the gameplay (creating decision-making points for the player is always a plus) and is realistic.



hal9000 -> RE: I'm tired of 4x (2/8/2011 2:57:54 AM)

kaltor farms, nice... I like the idea of sending my people on space safari :)

I also like the maintenance idea, some system to slow down expansion would be great, maybe new colonies could have a negative income. And a range limit for colonization would be great, I just hate it when the empires left of me send their colony ships across my empire to settle some worlds right of me and the empires on the right vice versa, so I end up with lots of colored trade routes obscuring my empire

As for more uniqueness, it would be great if the tech tree would encourage more specialization. Starships unlimited had a nice system, where researching one type of weapon would make all the other weapon types more expensive. I also liked the space empires approach where you had to research some really expensive techs that would unlock new special paths of research.

the backstory could use a few twists too. would be great if you would never know who will turn out to be the bad guys. so maybe the ancient guardians reveal them as the shakturi or the ancients get reprogrammed and team up with them or one of the weaker empires in the game transforms into them.




Igard -> RE: I'm tired of 4x (2/8/2011 3:09:27 AM)

Material Upkeep. Big thumbs up from me. I think along with a little bit more trasparency in terms of where material is and where it's going, this would be truly epic. In terms of modding it, I think it would be a nightmare for someone like me. I can read most code, but writing it is another matter. And I don't think we'll be seeing any source code any time soon either. [:(]

I think taming creatures is a brilliant idea too. I can imagine the Securans doing this and turning them into miners, freighters or whatever (obviously just for interplanetary). I can also imagine the Haakonish setting up resort bases around creature 'safari' zones so they can go hunting. Kiadians would build research bases around them so they can perform perverse experiments. Mortalen or Dhayuut would turn them into ferocious planetary defense monsters. It opens up lots of new features that could be specifically for certain races.



thiosk -> RE: I'm tired of 4x (2/8/2011 5:05:57 AM)

You know, igard, this whole time i thought you were actually employed by Matrix. I think it had to do with the way you did your "modding wishlist" thread



Data -> RE: I'm tired of 4x (2/8/2011 7:09:56 AM)

no, he's not employed by Matrix....only highly effective at what he does [:)]



J HG T -> RE: I'm tired of 4x (2/8/2011 7:26:35 AM)

Material upkeep and creature farms both sound like great ideas. The creatures are part of DW world so it would be great to give them even bigger role gameplay wise.
The only thing that worries me about material upkeep is that it could once again rise the importance of the mighty Homeworld. Also, it would be neat if there would be small icons next to transports, planets and bases showing what materials and how much of them they are holding. This could be toggleable of course so you could check it when you need.



thiosk -> RE: I'm tired of 4x (2/8/2011 8:20:39 AM)

This is how I imagine a game of Thio's Ideal DW would start:

A species doesn't go to space for any reason other than necessity. So, the almighty homeworld, while responsible for all the production and the wealth, should really be in quite a depression when we first step into the stars. Overpopulation, natural resources stretched to the limit, damaged development value, terrible shortages of... everything.

Colony ships are huge, and shouldn't be the first object produced. Ever. I'm anti-colony-rush.

Maybe the slider for starting tech should just have another notch-- dawn of the space age, before even the hyperdrive is in production. The early mining ships should start getting produced, should be a little tough to actually get going. Forget a constructor. You need private corporate mining before you can even start building proper mining stations. Anything to placate the homeworld and get the economy established. Work in the initial star system to get your nugget established, start heading outside the solar system to pick up some material on the outskirts. Hell, maybe you'd even have to build enough really crappy vessels to bonk a couple kraltors guarding a derelict starship, and THATS how you get your hyperdrive.

I'll wait patiently. Someone make me this game.



Data -> RE: I'm tired of 4x (2/8/2011 8:30:21 AM)

you know the Gate series by Frederik Pohl? there were some games made after this where you didn't even discover hyperdrive but hyperdrive capable ships which you'd use; but those games were not 4x
MOO2 on the other hand had the pre-warp setting but it also did not have the other features you desire
I'm more and more convinced that this game you envision will never be a 4x...the expansion rush is too strong in 4x gaming. Can't say I don't like it.



Sabin Stargem -> RE: I'm tired of 4x (2/8/2011 8:55:51 AM)

A pre-warp setting would suit the Solar Drive and commerce concept from awhile back, though I would like to add another element. Unfortunately, it feels a tad iffy to me. I don't think that I have heard of any 4X to try it.

The basic idea is that in addition to not being able to directly manipulate the Private Sector, that sector is actually an Independent faction. Any worlds, mines, stations, and areas it claims is something that it owns. In fact, all of the Private Sectors for each empire owe the barest loyalty to their originating points (though the Loyalty attribute helps in reducing prices and preference), and will try to make as much money as it could and have the Empires buy things from them. The Private Sector easily expands to new solar systems and colonize worlds, and offers to sell them to the highest bidders at some point, or perhaps hiring out solar systems for limited times. To invade an Independent world, or Solar System, means that it is harder to buy things from the Private Sector, including worlds, ships, technology, or information.

The Private Sector has its own techtree, separate from that of the Empires and is generally supposed to be stronger in the early and midgame, only losing dominance as the empires come into their own. People generally colonize places in order to fulfill their desires, be it wealth, Independence, curiosity, or for a new life - Empires can't really supply this early on, because they are rigid and stratified structures, unable to make the dreams of people come true. The Empire has no place in the colony rush, and tries to instead to get what it wants by selectively purchasing certain properties and slowly expanding, not via pure military strength, but from good economic choices and exploration.

That isn't to say that Empires can't own worlds, but their efforts should be much more concentrated, while the Private Sector covers everything that the Empires are not focusing on.



Gareth_Bryne -> RE: I'm tired of 4x (2/8/2011 9:34:25 AM)

Okay guys, sorry to go against the flow here, but (IMHO):

Why NOT material upkeep (for planets)?

Any planet of the types used in DW has a sizable amount of resources, which it uses for it's own needs. Take a look at Earth, for example: our planet has huge (and badly wasted, yes) reserves of steel, carbon, the whole table of elements. BUT there are SOME resources lacking, because a) they are unstable, b) they are hard to get or produce, c) they are dangerous to work with and only then d) everyone wants so much of them. The principles of recyclability, reusability and economy should be counted in too. In short: the basic resource upkeep is the (hidden) parameter that defines maximum planet population and the planet's attractiveness (that's why continental is on top of the list[:)]). In my opinion, the DW existing planet-resource system is top-of-the-line and can mostly be polished around.

Where CAN material upkeep be exploited?

Planets can have a surplus of specific rare/basic resources, which are shown on the planet view and form the basis of DW private economy. In my opinion, they could also have a deficit of specific basic resources, shown in red, which will lead to higher prices for the resource on the planet and slower planetary development without it. The deficit can be hard-set or random-event defined.

Ships will need refitting in bases once every 5-10 years. That should mean not only a credit price, but also a resource price based on the ship's total resource price.

As for colony ships, yes, a colony ship carrying 10-15 mil.!!! citizens, even if in cryostasis, needs MUCH MORE resource and logistics support than a 10,000 crew dreadnought. A review of the existing system is basically that a colony ship built using a single planetary docking space requires a LOT of time (and resources) to build. Such ships should be foolproof due to the responsibility for lives. The sheer callousness of my throwing C-ship after C-ship into pirate infested, hostile native, VIP resource planets, well... at the very least should lead to a severe temporary happiness drop on the originating planet (PR, you know). It must be much easier to build multiple constant passenger ships ferrying up to a 100k potential new colonists from the main planets to colony worlds than even a single C-ship. Notwithstanding, for efficient colonization, if you implement the above, a planet would be a) capable of building a C-ship from about 0,5 billion people and b) building those C-ships one by one, around the clock, automatically of necessity, so as to not to fall behind.

Me likes space creatures. Me wants kaltor skin boots and gas giant monster jelly pudding).


P.S. Oh, and one more thing. When a game becomes Epic, the excessive amount of available options radically turn off new players. So, a very thorough, immersive tutorial and most of the options turned OFF by default (until said new player learns how to use them) is the way to go. That's the reason that Dominions 3 didn't become massively popular, but everyone that took a risk and dug into the options, usually stayed forever.



tofudog -> RE: I'm tired of 4x (2/8/2011 10:26:18 AM)

Way to go Gareth[:)],
you just spared me a post.
That, and I like the "deficit" idea you proposed. Very much so.
Now build in something like the potentially crippling terraform costs from SotS and your colony rush is delayed until you can afford it.

@Sabin Stargem - currently DWīs private sector works the other way round: It buys ships out of nationalized shipyards, instead of selling them, privately built, to the empire as our current earth economic model (and your idea) dictates.
Which leads me to the question: What is the underlying economic model of DW? To me it seems a mix of liberal and socialist elements (across the board - the economy works the same regardless of Government).
I would expect more state control over the "private" sector in dictatorships or monarchies (at a nominal cost in efficiency - the bigger the corporation, the more of the much maligned public service mentality creeps in), heck real earth feudal states donīt even acknowledge such a thing as "private property" - ultimately everything belongs to the king and is only borrowed out to others tier by tier. Sure, at the peasant level the king becomes very remote, but if he wanted to go to the trouble, he could direct every moisture farmer and womp-rat hunter in his demesne (and if real earth kings had had access to the almighty space bar of pausing they would have done so, trust me on that!).
I look forward to trying to get a terrifyingly efficient small business economy to support my imperial drive and giving up herding that bag of cats, nationalising them all, shooting the "bugs are people too" protesters before my palace and enjoying some hard earned emperorīs peace (bought with the corrupting influence of a thousand lickspittle goons (oops, ministers)).

Now go ahead and implement THAT Mr. Rutins - but to have a chance of finishing within our lifetimes clone yourself a few thousand-fold beforehand.
So actually yes, it will be a while before DW runs out of things to expand to.

Thanks for giving us a game that stirs these desires[&o][&o][&o]



Data -> RE: I'm tired of 4x (2/8/2011 10:36:50 AM)

just a minor correction, Erik is with Matrix...Elliot Gibs is the developer from CodeForce; aside from that, I agree that we should clone both these guys [:)]



Sabin Stargem -> RE: I'm tired of 4x (2/8/2011 11:02:51 AM)

Yah, knew about the Empire selling ships to the Private Sector. It might actually be an interesting way to separate The Way of Light and Way of Darkness extremes, by having the more "Open" governments possess a stronger Private Sector, while "Closed" Governments have more control, but has an weaker economy for it, in terms of expansion and how income is gained.


Open Governments:
+Buys various goods from Independent sources for excellent prices.
+Has a better reputation with Free governments.
+Gains the most income through tourism and promoting trade.
+Private Sector expands quickly in regions surrounding Open Empires.
+Increases maximum amount of Free Trade percentage.
+Private Sector performs research at an accelerated rate.
+The collection and trade of Luxuries is emphasized.
+Obtaining a large amount of a race will significantly increase the volume and value of trade with Empires and Independent worlds that have that race. A multi-racial empire becomes stronger.
+May license technology developed by the Private Sector for use, but pays fees per licensed component. Developing the technology afterwards will remove the fee.
-Doesn't make many sales through constructing ships for the Private Sector
-Weak influence on Private Sector ship designs, which often goes for what is cheap or the highest quality vessels in the galaxy.
-Invading worlds will really damage this government's ability to deal with Independent sources.
-Private Sector can't readily enter Closed Empire regions, especially for colonization purposes - they are apt to be blown to smithereens.
-Negotiating with pirates would cost more and hiring them as privateers will incur a greater penalty.
-Pirates will manifest along trade routes.


Closed Empires
+Tightly controls the ship market, so there are increased sales of starships within their region, and the designs more closely match what is mandated by the Empire.
+Private Sector is very slow to expand, which gives more time for the Empire to colonize worlds and solar systems without having to deal with Private Sector.
+Obtains more taxes from colonies, and has a higher maximum cap for taxation. (100% for Way of Darkness?)
+Impressive migration rates, within the region.
+Ships are more durable and perform better than that of Open Empires, due to the best materials being reserved for Empire vessels.
+Invading worlds has little effect on interactions with Private Sector markets, due to pre-existing hostility.
+Purchasing black-market materials smuggled from other empires is possible, dependent on Pirates occupying such areas. This includes technology, rare resources, maps, and so on.
+Promoted Privateer activity doesn't particularly concern citizens, they already got other things on their plate, so they can't be concerned about what happens to other people.
+Armies on each world provides a morale bonus.
+Receives extra money from each convoy inspected within their territory - escorts and frigates will intercept convoys, board them, and retrieve what is deemed contraband.
+The fewer races integrated with your Empire, the happier and more productive your primary race would be. Worlds will start becoming segregated, with minorities being shunted to worlds your race doesn't like.
+Boosted research ability for Military Sector.
+Collection and trade of Strategic Resources is focused upon.
-Increased corruption.
-Low tourism levels.
-Little incoming migration from regions outside of the Empire's. Most of the migration is outwards, most likely that of people who don't want to be in the Empire.
-Larger amount of pirates, especially around low-morale worlds.
-Worlds without armies have lower morale. Systems with little or no navies have lower morale.



Igard -> RE: I'm tired of 4x (2/8/2011 1:31:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thiosk

You know, igard, this whole time i thought you were actually employed by Matrix. I think it had to do with the way you did your "modding wishlist" thread


[:D] And my most imperious avatar probably helped with that assumption too. [:D]



Abraxis -> RE: I'm tired of 4x (2/8/2011 3:30:03 PM)

Another method for preventing colony spamming is to think of a way for small empires (just a few planets) to still develop, where large empires could not.  The one thing I was initially impressed by in Civ5 was how the global happiness accomplished this.  Ideally it should have meant that one could either expand out, having many cities, but low populations in each city.  Or you could just have a few cities of very high population.  Of course it ended up not quite working, and it was a pretty lame and too obviously contrived method for controlling the player.
Though I'm not sure of a good way to do it without imposing some kind of restrictions or rules who's sole purpose is to regulate this kind of thing, which could very easily end up just being an annoyance and make the game feel too controlled.

Your material upkeep idea would certainly be a step in the right direction (and would be easy to implement), but I do wish they would come up with positive motivation for an empire to be small (whether the empire wants to or the situation gives them no other choice).  They need a way to continue to expand economically if they can no longer expand their territory, this method has to be at the expense of expanding territory otherwise all empires will do it simultaneously while expanding their territory and it will accomplish nothing.

Definitely not an easy system to implement, or even conceive, but if a 4X came around that nailed this somehow I would be a happy man.

P.S. If I'm incomprehensible I apologize, I just woke up [sm=dizzy.gif]



diablo1 -> RE: I'm tired of 4x (2/8/2011 3:37:05 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thiosk

Distant Worlds is a great game, as I've posted before, and the designers are to be commended.
However, theres something I really want; a niche that has never, to my knowledge, been filled. (note: i havn't had time to play through the expansion yet, waiting for some time then i'm buying it)

Distant worlds falls into one trap that every space-epic game falls into: the colony rush. Honestly, I hate the colony rush. We have discovered FTL travel! OH, um, so have 10 other bloodsucking alien races which happen to live here too. QUICK TAKE ALL THE PLANETS YOU CAN! FASTER! FAAAAASTER!!! DECLARE WAR ON ANYONE WHO GETS TOO CLOSE!!!!! This breeds conflict, and makes for a nice 4x game. But, its not really the space-epic game I want to play.

What I want is more of a management game; a building game. A true Simcity->simSpace. The galactic game we were promised when Spore was announced back in 2006. At its heart, this is what I think DW is; an outer-space economic simulation, that happens to have space battles and a colony rush.

My favorite thing to do in DW? Economic expansion. I love to see the private fleets buzzing around, sucking ore off various planets and transporting it elsewhere. I love to seek out the mineral-rich worlds and plant factories on them, slurping metal and shipping it back to the homeworld for exploitation; drawing gas from the hot cores of gas giants. My problem is, what do you do with all this glorious material? Planets take care of themselves; theres no demand for anything other than luxuries. So you take those materials, stockpile them massively, and you build more ships. And then you take those ships to enemy planets, and you pew pew.

There are so many things to do with material. Dyson spheres. How about artifical planets? ringworlds? Neutron star mining? Towing stars? An empire that spans the cosmos should be able to attain godlike power, and it should require a lot of special projects to get all the way there. OH, none of this fits with a 4x game, you say! You don't need all that when the goal is focused on the 4x's! Well, I say, I'm tired of 4x! I've been 4xing it since I was 7!

So what do I really want? I want the best of Spore merged with the best of DW. How would I envision this happening?

Spore allowed a free-wheeling empire building. Functionally limitless space; there were so many stars and planets that even in a fairly crowded area it felt like enough "space." Second, there was no real "time" axis; you had to go in and fiddle with things to get stuff to happen-- plopping down cities and terraforming and what not. If you wanted to really work on one planet for hours and get it just the way you wanted, great! More or less, mostly everything else will take care of itself, except spore had the terrible "oh help us in 2 minutes or less!" warnings every five seconds that got realllly annoying. But the rest of it, nonlinear time axis, procedural simulation, the way planets appear as you find them rather than uncover preexisting ones-- there is so much potential power for a 4x sim that is squandered for cuteness.


Heres another way to think about what I want: a sort of Dungeon Keeper meets Dwarven Fortress in Spaaaaace.

SO, matrix and codeforce, ball is in your court. You can keep the same game, same races, same system, just retool the idea, focus, and economy of the game, wrap it up, and sell it as a standalone game. Hell, what I want is basically a glorified mod. Look what Stardock is doing with Elemental War of Magic-- they are continuing with expansions for war of magic, but are taking the engine and concept in a totally different direction with Fallen Enchantress-- the expansion pack that isn't.

I'm bored of 4x, i'm ready for SimX.


Have you tried X3:series (Terran Conflict is the best)? It doesn't have colony rush as most everything is already there when you start. It's your strategic mission (and tactical later on) to FIT IN to the pre-existing world and build your own empire. The economic game is really great and fun to play. You can sit in your own little facility and command your fleet(s) around the galaxies and takeover just about anything and everything if that is your wish. You can join in wars of other races or join in the war against the Xenon and Klaak and Pirates. It's one of the best 4x's ever made imho. Though it moves from what some would call the "traditional" 4x game it still feels like a 4x game to me. Explore, Expand, Exploit and Exterminate although it doesn't have to be on a you must do this to WIN the game. You don't have to WIN to enjoy the X3:series.



cmdrnarrain -> RE: I'm tired of 4x (2/8/2011 4:44:14 PM)

You make me sick.  If you want SIMS in space talk to the SIMS people.  Matrix's produces war games. 



Sabin Stargem -> RE: I'm tired of 4x (2/8/2011 4:52:23 PM)

As much as I like hearing about all kinds of games, the way you...preach about only a single game really makes me feel turned off. Funny thing is that I have a copy of X3: Terran Conflict on my desk, which has been waiting for me to clear some space to install it. Diablo1, you are not helping my enthusiasm, nor that of others I feel.



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