Some are more SS than others... (Full Version)

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Tarhunnas -> Some are more SS than others... (2/12/2011 8:05:00 AM)

Some of the SS-units are only half-SS (half of the counter is black). What does that indicate? Are they not as much SS as the others? Or perhaps there is still some hope of saving their souls..?



ool -> RE: Some are more SS than others... (2/12/2011 9:56:43 AM)

SS cavalry units I think is why some are different.



Veldmaarschalk -> RE: Some are more SS than others... (2/12/2011 10:38:38 AM)

Some are 'elite' SS (like f.e. 1st SS Panzer, 5th SS Panzer) and some are 'non-Elite' SS (like f.e. 19th SS Waffen Grenadier)



Zovs -> RE: Some are more SS than others... (2/12/2011 1:56:59 PM)

Full black SS are elite, half black and grey are not elite.



Redmarkus5 -> RE: Some are more SS than others... (2/12/2011 6:33:03 PM)

Several SS units were recruited amongst Axis minor countries and even further afield (e.g. Cossacks, Croats and even a small number of Indian troops were included at some point) and many of these were very far from being 'elite' units. The Swedish and Dutch SS fought with distinction however, as I recall. I believe the Swedes were amongst the last defenders at the end of the Battle of Berlin?



tancred41 -> RE: Some are more SS than others... (2/12/2011 6:44:04 PM)

Don't know about Swedes, but I remember reading that French SS were amongst the very last to be flushed out ... they were in the subway tunnels. The problem with foreign SS at that very late hour is that they couldn't easily ditch their uniforms and pretend to be German civilians



Steelers708 -> RE: Some are more SS than others... (2/12/2011 7:56:02 PM)

The Indians that were recruited made up an Heer unit not a Waffen SS unit as follows:

I.R. 950 (ind) / Freies Indien Legion 1943-44

Legionskommandeur: Oberstleutnant Kurt Krappe (until 25/6/43)

Ausbildungs und Betreutungsstab (Training & Maintenance Staff) formed 27/4/43 then renamed on 7/7/43 as: Regiments-Stab (ind.) Infanterie Regiment 950
I. Bataillon: w/ 4x Infanterie Kompanien (Nr. 1 - 4)
II. Bataillon: w/ 4x Infanterie Kompanien (Nr. 5 - 8)
III. Bataillon: w/ 4x Infanterie Kompanien (Nr. 9 - 12)
13th Infanteriegeschütz Kompanie (Infantry-Gun Company w/ 6x 7.5cm leichtes Infanteriegeschütz 18)
14th Panzerjäger Kompanie (Anti-tank Company w/ 6x Panzerabwehrkanone)
15th Pionier Kompanie (Engineer Company)
Ehrenwachkompanie (Honour Guard Company)
Hospital / Convalescent Home


The Swedes were in the 11th SS Pz GR Div. 'Nordland' where they made up a platoon in the SS Pz Aufklarungs Abteilung 11 'Nordland', and did indeed fight in Berlin at the end.



Redmarkus5 -> RE: Some are more SS than others... (2/12/2011 10:17:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Steelers708

The Indians that were recruited made up an Heer unit not a Waffen SS unit as follows:

I.R. 950 (ind) / Freies Indien Legion 1943-44

Legionskommandeur: Oberstleutnant Kurt Krappe (until 25/6/43)

Ausbildungs und Betreutungsstab (Training & Maintenance Staff) formed 27/4/43 then renamed on 7/7/43 as: Regiments-Stab (ind.) Infanterie Regiment 950
I. Bataillon: w/ 4x Infanterie Kompanien (Nr. 1 - 4)
II. Bataillon: w/ 4x Infanterie Kompanien (Nr. 5 - 8)
III. Bataillon: w/ 4x Infanterie Kompanien (Nr. 9 - 12)
13th Infanteriegeschütz Kompanie (Infantry-Gun Company w/ 6x 7.5cm leichtes Infanteriegeschütz 18)
14th Panzerjäger Kompanie (Anti-tank Company w/ 6x Panzerabwehrkanone)
15th Pionier Kompanie (Engineer Company)
Ehrenwachkompanie (Honour Guard Company)
Hospital / Convalescent Home


The Swedes were in the 11th SS Pz GR Div. 'Nordland' where they made up a platoon in the SS Pz Aufklarungs Abteilung 11 'Nordland', and did indeed fight in Berlin at the end.


This is the listing I have:

Approx 350,000 non-German volunteers in the Waffen SS:

Albania - approx 3,200 - 21st SS Division
Belgium (Flemish) 22,000 - 5th SS Div., 27th SS Div.
Belgium (Walloons) 15,000 -5th SS Div., 28th SS Div.
British - 50 - The British Freikorps
Bulgaria 1,000.
Croatia 30,000 7th SS Div., 13th SS Hanshar Div., 23rd SS Div.
Denmark 10,000 in Freikorps Danemark, 11th SS Div.
India 3,500 in the Indische Freiwilligen Legion der Waffen SS
Estonia 20,000 in the 20th SS Div.
Finland 1,000
Hungarians 15,000 in the 25th SS Div., 26th SS Div. 33rd SS Div.
Latvia 40,000 in the Latvian Legion.
Netherlands 50,000 in the 23rd SS Div., 34th SS Division
Norway 6,000 in the 5th SS Div., 6th SS Div., 11th SS Div.
France 8,000 33rd SS Division
Italians 20,000 in the 29th SS Division
Portugal?
Belorussian 12,000 29th SS Div., 30th SS Division
Russian Cossacks 40,000 - 1st Cossack Division
Turkic 8,000 Ostürkische SS, Tatarishe SS
Rumania 3,000 Waffen-Grenadierregiment der SS
Serbia 15,000 volunteers
Spain 1,000 Span-Freiwilligen-Komp der SS 101
Sweden, Switzerland & Luxemburg 3,000 5th SS Div., 11th SS Div.
Ukraine 25,000 in the 14th SS Division.

Reference material on the Indian SS volunteers - Massimiliano Afiero - Indische Freiwilligen Legion der Waffen SS

Indische Freiwilligen Legion der Waffen-SS was formed when Infanterie-Regiment 950 (indische) was transferred from Heer to Waffen-SS control 8 Aug 1944 and continued its retreat towards Germany.

It remained at Truppenübungsplatz Heuberg until Mar 1945 when the Indians began a march towards neutral Switzerland but they were forced to surrender to US and French troops before reaching their goal.

Known war crimes
29 POWs from this unit were killed by French partisans at Poitiers 22 September 1944 and additional POWs were killed later at Bourges and Levet.

Commanders
SS-Oberführer Heinz Bertling (8 Aug 1944 - 8 May 1945)

Area of operations
France (Aug 1944 - Sep 1944)
Germany (Sep 1944 - May 1945)

Order of battle
I. Bataillon
II. Bataillon
III. Bataillon
13. Infanteriegeschütz Kompanie
14. Panzerjäger Kompanie
15. Pionier Kompanie
Ehrenwachkompanie

Insignia
A collar insignia with a tiger's head was authorized but probably only issued in small quantities. At least one period photo of it in use is known to exist.



Zebedee -> RE: Some are more SS than others... (2/12/2011 10:38:51 PM)

Useful to link to websites you pull info from :)

I recognised the bit from Axis History factbook though - http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=1720



Steelers708 -> RE: Some are more SS than others... (2/12/2011 11:25:19 PM)

I just got the info after a quick search of stuff I've got on my computer, you are right about them being transferred, this is what it says in my copy of "Foreign Legions of the 3rd Reich, Vol. 4" by David Littlejohn,

"On 8 August 1944, Indian Infantry Regiment 950 beame Indische Legion der Waffen SS. It had at this time a strength of around 2,300 men. It's three battalions were equipped only with rifles and machine pistols. There was an antitank company with six guns. Transport comprised 81 motor vehicles and 700 horses. Hitler is reputed to have said, "The Indian legion is a joke." He ordered that its weapons be handed over to the newly created 18th " Horst Wessel" Division of the SS."

and

"When taken over by the Waffen SS, the legion probably wore a plain black collar patch. A stylized Tiger's head is shown on the S.S. map of February 1945 as as being for the Indian legion, but it is highly improbable that this was ever worn, or even manufactured, before the end of the war. Since the Germans had a low opinion of the fighting qualities of the Indian legion, it is questionable whether they even required them to exchange their army uniforms and insignia for corresponding items of SS apparel."



ool -> RE: Some are more SS than others... (2/13/2011 2:15:56 PM)

Not all were volunteers. The 20th was formed by taking Estonian army units and telling them as of today you are now part of the 20[sm=terms.gif]th Estonian Waffen SS. Volunteering had nothing to do with it. [:-]



Steelers708 -> RE: Some are more SS than others... (2/13/2011 4:31:41 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ool

Not all were volunteers. The 20th was formed by taking Estonian army units and telling them as of today you are now part of the 20[sm=terms.gif]th Estonian Waffen SS. Volunteering had nothing to do with it. [:-]


I would suggest you do some research into the history of the 20th 'Estnische Nr1' before assuming that they just forceably recruited Estonian Army units, especially as by order of the Soviet goverment the Estonian army had been disarmed in July 1940 and all the units became a part of the Soviet army.

In brief, the Germans initially set up some Police units (from volunteers) that found there way to the frontlines during Zhukovs offensive in the winter 1941, the German being inpressed with their fighting ability absorbed some of these into the Army.

They also established 6 Estonian Security Detachments which were later transformed into 3 Ostbataillion(658, 659 & 660) and one Ostkompanie(657). The 658th Ostbataillion was led by future Ritterkreuz mit Eichenlaub trager Alfons Rebane, who later on became a Regimental CO in the 20th SS division.

It was announced on the 28th August 1942 that permission had been granted to form the Waffen SS unit known as the Estonian Legion. The men of the Legion were initially recruited from the Eastern(Ost) and Police units where the soldiers contracts were coming to an end. The first members to arrive were 113 Ostbatallion men led by Lt. Paul Maitla. As recruitment from the Ostbatallion was harder than expected the Germans with the support of the Estonian authorities eventually turned to conscription. Several conscription(draft) orders were issued including one on the 1st February 1944 that brought in approximately 38,000 men that were used to form the 20th Waffen Grenadier Division SS Estnische Nr1, along with men from the SS Estonian Legion.



ool -> RE: Some are more SS than others... (2/13/2011 4:34:04 PM)

My father was one of the involuntary recruits. So I'll take his word for it. He was there.



Steelers708 -> RE: Some are more SS than others... (2/13/2011 4:50:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ool

My father was one of the involuntary recruits. So I'll take his word for it. He was there.


In that case then it would be interesting to know what unit he was 'involuntarily' recruited from, or maybe he was one of those that was conscripted. Either way I would be interested in knowing.

Alot of my info on the 20th comes from the book "EESTI LEEGION- The Estonian Legion in Words and Pictures" by Mart Laar, the book makes extensive use of Estonian State archive material as well as material from the veterans themselves. It makes no mention of 'involuntary' recruitment from Estonian units, but does mention the conscription orders from later in the war.



ool -> RE: Some are more SS than others... (2/13/2011 5:07:08 PM)

That would be kind of hard seeing as he died from liver cancer thirty years ago. We talked extensively about his experiences in that time. He graduated law school. Soviets invaded after the German Soviet non aggression pact prior to Poland invasion. Then he had just graduated law school. The Soviets said that wasn't good enough and he would have to go back to study Soviet law. When he was in law school a second time the Germans invaded. He joined the Estonian army and was made a sergeant. He told me that one day as he was in the Estonian army the unit was informed they were now part of a new 20th Waffen SS unit. There you go thats it have a nice day. Volunteering wasn't involved. Your unit was reassigned and like it or lump it you went or were shot for not following orders for your unit. Volunteered for the Estonian army, yes. Had a choice about being rolled into a new unit, no. Thats from someone that was there. First hand account. None of this after the fact book knowledge that certainly doesn't cover the fact that in the formative process the Estonian units that were rolled in had no option. After the fact volunteers? Sure lots of them. My own family suffered the 2Am knock at the door by the NKVD and members of the family were never seen again. Many families suffered the same experience. So sure they volunteered. Its understandable. Mind you what was the choice? Stalin or Hitler. Either way you lost. Many young men fought in the hopes of regaining Estonian independence. Laughable now considering what we know about Stalin and Hitler but there you go. Naivete of youth.



Steelers708 -> RE: Some are more SS than others... (2/13/2011 5:38:38 PM)

You quite understandably hold a grudge against both the Soviets and Germans for what happenned to you farther, but it would appear that you also hold that same grudge against anybody who is seriously interested in the events of WWII, therefore I shall let sleeping dogs lie by ending our conversation.



Redmarkus5 -> RE: Some are more SS than others... (2/13/2011 9:32:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zebedee

Useful to link to websites you pull info from :)

I recognised the bit from Axis History factbook though - http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=1720



I get my info from a range of sources, a lot of it from distant memory. I was attached to the Indian Army between 1977 and 1979 as a foreign student at the Indian Military Academy, where I trained alongside about 300 Afghan Army officers, and during my studies I read up on the Indian troops who sided with the Axis. One thing that stuck with me was that a large part of the Japanese force that attacked at Imphal and Kohima was made up of Indian volunteers.

I used to own a book (possibly Rise and Fall of the Third Reich by Shirer?) that included details of the attempt by Himmler to recruit Indian volunteers - I recall there being a photo of him standing alongside a formation of these men, but I can't find the book.

When I searched the web, I only found the item above - it seems that this story is not well known or publicized.



Farfarer61 -> RE: Some are more SS than others... (2/13/2011 11:49:03 PM)

I just wanted to say that given the emotion and history involved, this is a remarkably civil thread. I've seen more vitriol when someone criticized a photon torpedo.



jomni -> RE: Some are more SS than others... (2/14/2011 12:17:59 AM)

The irony or a racist regime employing other races into the SS.



paullus99 -> RE: Some are more SS than others... (2/14/2011 12:57:13 AM)

When you're losing & need men to fill the ranks, you'd be surprised at the rules that get left by the wayside.



Redmarkus5 -> RE: Some are more SS than others... (2/14/2011 8:52:14 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jomni

The irony or a racist regime employing other races into the SS.


Agreed, but it was a gradual process and also needs to be seen in the context of Nazism's world view, as well as the general fear of Communism in Europe at the time. Many of the earlier recruits were taken from 'Aryan' nations (the Dutch and Scandinavians, for example) and they joined the SS feeling that they were part of an anti-communist crusade. (I am not judging them or glorifying them).

When it came to the Indians (the Nazis also made major overtures to the Muslim nations, which triggered the British invasion of what is now Iraq in 1941, IIRC) the Nazis traced the Aryan race back to the Hindu Kush or nearby regions, if memory serves, pointing to the use of the Swastika in ancient religious practices there. Other 'races' were recruited solely on the basis of them not being Slavic peoples. There were also major concentrations of 'Germanic' peoples spread all across greater Europe and racial selection extended to the practice of taking Aryan-looking Polish and Russian children away from their families to be raised in Germany with German parents. Many thousands of kids were taken in this manner and many never returned to their natural families.

What really amazes me is that my mother recalls the Blitz and my uncle served in the air force over Europe from '44 to '45. This all happened not long before I was born!



Redmarkus5 -> RE: Some are more SS than others... (2/14/2011 8:54:01 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Farfarer

I just wanted to say that given the emotion and history involved, this is a remarkably civil thread. I've seen more vitriol when someone criticized a photon torpedo.


What fool criticized a photon torpedo, the most amazing weapon known the man??? Show me his face! Now, hold me back, hold me back I say!



ComradeP -> RE: Some are more SS than others... (2/14/2011 1:49:27 PM)

quote:

Many of the earlier recruits were taken from 'Aryan' nations (the Dutch and Scandinavians, for example) and they joined the SS feeling that they were part of an anti-communist crusade. (I am not judging them or glorifying them).


Actually, the majority of the initial Dutch recruits nominally joined the Dutch volunteer legion, which was supposed to have at worst a mix of Dutch and German officers. When it became clear that they would, instead, be absorbed into the SS and would get primarily German officers, many recruits chose to return to the Netherlands and not enlist. They were almost forced to, but at the time they still had a choice. As someone who enlisted put it, there were basically three groups: idealists (Nazi's or anti-communists), thugs and adventurers. The initial recruitment seemed to have had a limited attraction on the general population, with many people who did want to help the Axis war effort preferring to join organizations like the NSKK.

My grandfather became a Protestant clergyman, but two of his brothers joined the Waffen SS. I don't think they were Nazi's, although they might've become Nazi's at some point. They probably grew up with a hatred of communism. One of them died, possibly near Leningrad. There's a note of a man with his last name stepping on a land mine whilst bringing coffee to forward positions and shooting himself in the head after seeing that his leg was blown off. My grandfather died when I was 4 and the other brother who enlisted is also dead, so I haven't been able to talk with them about it.



MengJiao -> RE: Some are more SS than others... (2/14/2011 3:00:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Farfarer

I just wanted to say that given the emotion and history involved, this is a remarkably civil thread. I've seen more vitriol when someone criticized a photon torpedo.


I'd like to get my hands on whatever mindless scoundrel would stoop so low as to criticize a photon torpedo. Or any torpedo for that matter.



ComradeP -> RE: Some are more SS than others... (2/14/2011 3:21:16 PM)

A quick glance at the WitP/WitP:AE forum will show you quite a bit of US torpedo criticizing.



Cavalry Corp -> RE: Some are more SS than others... (2/15/2011 8:35:44 AM)

When i was in Estonia the people made a big point of reminding us that the partisans that fought the Russians were still fighting them into the 1950s. I assume these partisans were formed from disbanding retreating units that had been fighting for the Germans.
I did buy a little book on it but not sure where it is now.

Talinn is a great little city.


Cav



paullus99 -> RE: Some are more SS than others... (2/15/2011 11:13:21 AM)

The last multi-divisional action by the Soviets against Ukranian partisans took place in the 1952, so it was a pretty big problem for them for a while it seems.



Emx77 -> RE: Some are more SS than others... (2/15/2011 12:11:04 PM)

Among many foreign SS troops this one was from my country (Bosnia). It was recruited mostly among Bosniaks (Bosnian muslims) but all of it officers were Germans.

Links for 13th Waffen Mountain Division of the SS Handschar (1st Croatian):

Wikipedia

Waffen - SS

[image]http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/903/13divizija.jpg[/image]

[image]http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/8746/mnzs58796aa8.jpg[/image]




Redmarkus5 -> RE: Some are more SS than others... (2/15/2011 2:39:34 PM)

The guys in the photo look pretty 'normal' but the ones in the drawing look like real thugs! I guess the artist had an opinion about them :)



Emx77 -> RE: Some are more SS than others... (2/15/2011 2:47:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4

The guys in the photo look pretty 'normal' but the ones in the drawing look like real thugs! I guess the artist had an opinion about them :)


Artistic freedom I guess [:)]



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