German players? (Full Version)

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Adamo -> German players? (9/12/2002 10:26:54 AM)

Do any of you German players lead your advances in the field with Armored Cars or Light Panzers? Just curious. I'm relatively new and I've learned the hard (and expensive) way not to lead with Med or Heavy Panzers. I've been using the armored cars as kind of a scout/lead and then following up with panzers. any tips? adam



Warrior -> (9/12/2002 4:39:37 PM)

I don't know about the German players, but I often do. :)



JediMessiah -> (9/12/2002 6:55:43 PM)

i do....

usually motorcycles or cavalry first tho, and i think i play too aggressively....i have trouble keeping those recon units alive ;)

i like the 222 armored car and keubelwagens


-jedimessiah



Colonel von Blitz -> (9/12/2002 7:00:43 PM)

I use armored cars and light tanks not very often, but sometimes, to scout ahead. But IMHO there are better or at least cheaper units for scouting than those fragile ACs...utility vehicles and trucks carrying scout patrols are my favorite. Motorcycles and cavalry are another preferred scout.

When playing with german forces I like to use Panzer Ib light tank, but not as scout but for sweeping infantry (those twin MGs rock! :D)

Colonel von Blitz



Sardaukar -> (9/12/2002 10:03:17 PM)

I always use armoured cars and motorcycle troops when on advance. In my latest campaign I even have both in my core units. Don't know if it's worth it, though...usually 2/3 of them end up as KIA... But it's definitely better than losing tanks, and those burning armoured cars show nicely where enemy main line is :) .

Cheers,

M.S.



Alexei -> (9/12/2002 10:15:00 PM)

I have read that, as Germans were encountering soviet heavy tanks, they began to put 88s in the head (after recon units, though!) of armored columns. Do some of you use that strategy? I am somewhat discouraged by the on-turn-without-firing penalty for unmounting, which makes my 88s sitting ducks :( ...



Heide -> (9/13/2002 4:00:17 AM)

Yeah, I usually lead with a platoon of 231 8-rads, tend to lose them a lot though. :)



Jim1954 -> (9/13/2002 4:14:58 AM)

I've had that problem in MCNA, except they are only 222's. They just won't hold up to a 2 pdr or a Bofors (I've even seen a Vickers chew'em up), and being core force only hurts that much more.



Belisarius -> (9/13/2002 4:31:08 AM)

Yeah, my attrition rate on forward elements is high as well. :)

I usually scout forward with 222's, Kubelwagens and MCs. If I feel like I can afford it, there might be some 8-rads and 251's as well.

Are you scouting ahead of panzers, you've got to use an AC or APC. They will draw fire from enemy tanks and ATGs on overwatch - meaning they will expose themselves trying to pop the scout, whereas an ordinary recon element would have slipped right by and your panzers would have walked right into the trap. :p

MG Kubelwagens any day, tho.



Colonel von Blitz -> (9/13/2002 12:30:20 PM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Alexei
[B]I have read that, as Germans were encountering soviet heavy tanks, they began to put 88s in the head (after recon units, though!) of armored columns. Do some of you use that strategy? I am somewhat discouraged by the on-turn-without-firing penalty for unmounting, which makes my 88s sitting ducks :( ... [/B][/QUOTE]

This probably because of game limitations. At least, what I've read, a trained crew could unmount and set the 88 ready to fire within 20-30 seconds...that's a lot less time than 60 seconds (= 1 turn). Thus I'd say, at least some AT-guns should have the possibility to fire immediately after unmounting.

Colonel von Blitz



antarctic -> (9/13/2002 2:30:55 PM)

Hmmm... What you lead with depends on the mission

I tend to lead my forces with Med Panzers, at least with meeting engagements. They move in quickly supported by support pnazers, and FT tanks. The inf get bought up in HT's

For assault missions, I lead with engineers in halftracks.... followed close ly by the panzers.

In defense missions... well, you don't really need to "lead" with any units..... the enemy comes to you (how considerate of them eh?)


Antarctic



Warrior -> (9/13/2002 6:15:09 PM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Alexei
[B]I have read that, as Germans were encountering soviet heavy tanks, they began to put 88s in the head (after recon units, though!) of armored columns. Do some of you use that strategy? I am somewhat discouraged by the on-turn-without-firing penalty for unmounting, which makes my 88s sitting ducks :( ... [/B][/QUOTE]

The Germans have a halftrack with a 75mm gun that can can get you some pay-back, but it's soft-skinned so won't last long.



Jacc -> Balance (9/13/2002 7:45:32 PM)

First: it depends...
Sometimes it's necessary to be able to bring up maximum firepower from the very beginning (say, a meeting engagement where the opponent can control most victory hexes since the first turn). Then I usually use a mixed force of infantry, a couple of tanks and ACs just a bit ahead my main force. This way you can use the tanks to suppress the enemy and keep him in bay as you move your main force closer to bear the brunt or start the assault. And if enemy is spearheading with a mass of T34's, you really don't want to put an AC to tangle them... It only gets killed and does not stand a chance to slow them down.

In forest, infantry is a must. In cities or urban terrain, even ACs can do pretty well. If assaulting or advancing, you'll need engineers or SMG infantry to try and begin expanding your bridgehead positions...

OK, ACs are good, but you can only use them so long. I really don't want to sacrifice a Puma just to see what I expected - a mass of T34s just behind a hill. Of course, the human opponent always finds out a way to cheat you.



OKW-73 -> (9/13/2002 7:54:39 PM)

Yes, but it depends what kind of situation/terrain we have...



Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> (9/13/2002 8:31:54 PM)

I lead with 8 rads normally. But hey, don't expect an easy life in recon heheh.

I also like to lead with engineers if assaulting (mines suck big time).

Ordinary recon units riding on tanks are useful.

I usually load up the main armour though with my regular Infantry and advance to contact (with the 8 rads just in front).

I never drive my halftracks around carelessly though. They get full of holes way to easy. If the enemy is going to shoot at anything, its my heavily armoured tanks.
I keep my halftrack troops happy, and in one piece, so they can secure ground behind my panzers.

Of course, I aaaaactually pound the snot out of the ground ahead with LARGE artillery pieces, and place a healthy smoke screen between me and the nasties.

They can't shoot you if they can't see you eh.



Charles2222 -> (9/13/2002 8:32:52 PM)

My main purpose with recon is to spot "and" not be spotted. While that's not always possible, I would never lead an attack with AC's, with the exception a flanking counterattack while on a defensive mission.

I believe in preserving ALL of my units so putting AC's in harm's way just to draw fire doesn't work for me.

Depending on circumstances, I try to lead with foot recon, and sometimes will put regular infantry on AFV's to supplement that function elsewhere. The way I look at it, if I'm going to draw fire with an AFV, I want something up there that can take a bit of it, if not survive altogether.

My overall philosophy is the elimination of the enemy armor, first, so since my AC's are so vulnerable they're apt to be only used as aforementioned or as quite a few hexes back to back up further forward armor, and since their guns are usually poor their main role is quieting infantry that are hassling my forward AFV's. As you can see my medium-to-heavy armor does practically all the decisive fighting, and since that is true their ammunition gets used quicker than with most players, so the main crux of fighting the enemy armor over with, then my AC's can take a more prominent role and use their ammunition so the tanks don't go bone dry. My basic philosophy is to never expose your lightest armor to the heavy fighting (with the possible exception that if they have guns as good as your best armored AFV's they might be used more). Even if there is some enemy armor left over, putting the AC's in a later open role isn't so bad, because it's unlikely with such circumstances and decent planning, that they'll ever run into a situation where 3 or more strong AFV's will spot and fire on them at the same time.



Belisarius -> (9/13/2002 10:17:35 PM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by REMF
[B]

The Germans have a halftrack with a 75mm gun that can can get you some pay-back, but it's soft-skinned so won't last long. [/B][/QUOTE]

Yeah, with a fire control of 2 :rolleyes: Good luck hitting that barn..



challenge -> (9/14/2002 3:41:07 AM)

Time period is important. Early war into '42 the 8 Rad can stand up to light tanks and occassionally mediums. Heavies swat them like flys though. :(

The ACs have the advantage of speed and small size which, if used carefully, can keep them alive. It the long WWII campaign I have going, a 3 car unit has been racking up a hefty score or armor. I've lost a few cars, but the crews have gotten away intact. One of them has the second highest kill score -- 22 kills -- and I've only replaced the AC once. I've replaced all three of them once each, but the trade-off has been worth it.

In addition, if you run them up near the enemy approach and just let them wait they can take out a number of transports and AFVs and then zip into cover as soon as things get hot.

Yeah, like 'em and use 'em.



Charles2222 -> (9/14/2002 7:07:11 AM)

challenge: I've on ocassion debated with myself on just which is the most important aspect of the AC, size or size. What I mean, is while size lends to being more difficult to be hit, the larger size also lends to a higher probability of some of the crew surviving. I've never thought of being so scrupulous regarding AC selection, where survival is concerned, because usually at when you start a campaign there's maybe only 2 ACs to choose from.

My two main considerations were offensive firepower (not only in punch, but in number of rounds) and armor, with top speed and sixe being more distant in consideration, but now this discussion puts something of a new perspective into my mind. What about survivability because there is a rating for that you know? Now, off the cuff I'd say they're probably all rated '2' so maybe it's not a worthwhile criteria, but then again the number of the crew can also help determine whether anyone will survive. Probably the odds of a 2 man crew surviving in such thin skin are around 5%.

Hmm, though most AC's aren't open-topped, I wonder how they commonly compare to HT's in survivability (though it's not entirely a good comparison, since what we're wanting is recon, and most HT's probablt aren't recon except to function as draw-fire bait)?

In the GE early campaign, unless I'm forgetting one, there's 4 basic AC choices.

221,222,6-rad, and 8-rad. The 221/222 are toilet paper ratings of '1' on survivability, but '2' on size, with crew of '2'.

6-rad is also a measely '1' for survive, while it's size is '3' with a crew of '4'

8-rad is the best yet. It's '2' as survive (twice as good as the others), size '3' (larger than all the others) and also has a crew of '4'.

I perused the OOB's for H2H in this attempt. I notice all the latter year AC's for GE all pretty much '2' for survival, so the 8-rad having the '2' in the early years a pretty good advantage.

In comparison, as well, the 251/1 HT has some good traits. It's size '3' with only a crew of '2', whereas it's survivability is 3. I'm not experienced enough with 8-rads to tell anyone their crew survival rate in the field, but with HT's I am, and while they are rated very high for survival, that 2 man crew sees very few times with any survivors. Even if they do survive, what's the odds of gluttonous enemy fire allowing them to survive with such a mini-crew? BTW, most medium tanks seem to share the same survivability rating of '3' with the 251/1 HT. Interesting too that most of the rest fo the HT's only get a '2' later on. It also outsurvives ALL the GE light tanks and 3 or 4 of the mediums.



Charles2222 -> (9/14/2002 7:43:13 AM)

Belisarius:
quote:

Yeah, with a fire control of 2 Good luck hitting that barn..


Right and wrong. You must presume there's only the 75L24, which is not the case. In fact, there is also the 50L60 which FC's at '3' (the 75L24 does indeed only have a '2'). OTOH, the 75L46 has an FC of '4' but if you play it strictly by unit class it's not an AC, but maybe what I might refer to as a AC HT crossover. In any event it's called a wheeled ATG, but it has only 6 AP rds., 4 HE rds., and 2 APCR rds (along with an MG).

There is a true blue HT that comes out in 1/44 which has a 75L43, with an FC of '4' also, but it has decent ammuniton, with 14 each of AP and HE (no MG's though).



Colonel von Blitz -> (9/16/2002 7:10:16 PM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Charles_22
[B]There is a true blue HT that comes out in 1/44 which has a 75L43, with an FC of '4' also, but it has decent ammuniton, with 14 each of AP and HE (no MG's though). [/B][/QUOTE]

Hmm, and the RF value was...if I remember correctly, it's 2.

I've used these long-barreled 75mm HT's and I've found that they really cannot hit anything, no matter if you're standing still or moving as fast as you can...always miss, if range is more than 15 centimeters :D :D

Colonel von Blitz



challenge -> (9/17/2002 2:55:40 AM)

221s, 222s and 6 Rads are nice for spotting, but I tend to run them fast the other way if they survive the initial encounter with anything. The don't have the armor to stand up to ATRs let alone real guns. Speed keeps them alive, while the 8 Rads take out anything chasing them as they run away.

As C_22 mentioned, crew size and survivability is what keeps the crews alive, but the armor -- as light as it is -- gives the 8 Rad an edge over ACs and even some early armed HTs.

Later in the war you start adding in much bigger guns, but the reduced rate of fire and the number of rounds really limits the use of those. By then the ACs can't even stand up to the newer armor and guns of light armor, so they end up in infantry support roles. While it's nice to have a fast moving 75 to bring into play, I'd rather have an assualt gun that might survive a hit from a 76 mm gun.



Colonel von Blitz -> (9/17/2002 12:39:15 PM)

I've found that most ACs are simply too expensive to be used for recon, since they cannot withstand any hits from enemy AT weaponry. Thus I have a tendency to use ACs more in a "enemy recon killer" role, meaning that I setup small groups (2-3 groups for regular Large map) with 1-2 ACs and 2-3 MCs plus some vehicle riding recon patrols. With these I counter enemy recon attempts...usually with pretty good success, since most people use jeeps/kübelwagens or MCs/Cavalry to recon.

Colonel



Charles2222 -> (9/18/2002 9:03:25 PM)

Colonel Von Blitz: Oh it's there alright (the 75L46 with a '4' FC). I think it's an sk233/1 or something. It's real easy to spot if you run the OOB editor where all the sk series is grouped together.

While some of the TD's such as the Nashorn are better for the role of shoot-and-scoot (in direct fire terms, the art of starting out the turn behind a hex hiding the unit, to move it forward into the open the space of one hex or more, then firing part or all of the turn's alloted shots, and then returning to the hidden position) some of these AC's are defensively even more useful. True, the Nashorn has a better gun than any of them, but it's also MUCH easier to be hit and has much less speed.

In the exact same situation, a Nashorn with so little speed comparable to the shots, might find itself only able to fire 3 rds. before returning to hiding, whereas in many cases the AC's can fire 5 or 6 times before rehiding. Doubtless many AC's though being often less anti-personnel wise comparably in main gun comparison, will find their overall guns better, particularly at under 500 m should the enemy infantry hordes get too close. In any event, shoot-and-scoot is best used after the enemy attack has been worn down to some extent, and not used from the get-go.

I will often stage my SPAA's in such a role, though they have to be more careful because of thoroughly exposed sides and rears, to do shoot-and-scoot should enemy hordes of infantry get too close.



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