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Charles22 -> (12/23/2000 9:44:00 AM)

Flashfyre: I don't get your point about the swastika not being on vehicles except for air identification. BTW, every single soldier also had the eagle and swastika on his uniform, and I believe all officers of every service had it on their caps as well. If your point is that the vehicles (those without flags) basically not having swastikas is supposed to say that the army didn't recognise the Nazis, and didn't want anything to do with them, just remember the more important thing, it was on their uniforms, not once, but twice (which doesn't speak for those with Nazi armbands). So why allow themselves to be branded with the Nazi symbol? Perhaps a great many of the army leaders were ignorant enough not to realise that the swastika wasn't just some fashionable symbol. Tell me, as far as you know, did the army actually set it's foot down about the vehicles, and that's why they basically didn't have swastikas (BTW, the Africa Corp tanks had palm trees with a swastika in the trunk of the tree)? Seems like a pretty futile gesture of defiance when you consider how their uniforms, the very thing they wore, had two swastikas, and also how they swore allegiance to Adolf Hitler, instead of the army's usual vow to the Constitution. If the swastika meant so much to them as to not allow it on the vehicles, then how did they allow it on the uniforms, twice? If you don't know, that's fine, it just seems a bit peculiar.




Flashfyre -> (12/27/2000 2:11:00 PM)

A further clarification, Charles22: The official, recognized (by OKW) national ID marking for German combat vehicles was the Balkenkreuz, or cross. First used in Poland in 1939, it was originally a large white cross, applied to grill plates, open hatches, and shutters, as a cutout metal plate. However, it provided such an excellent aiming point for Polish ATGs, that it was modified by painting the center in the yellow divisional isignia color. By 1940, the now-recognized white cross with black or grey center became standard on all combat vehicles. It was not used on softskinned or unarmored units, although captured vehicles were marked to aid in identification. The swastika, on the other hand, was not an official marking. It was painted, sometimes crudely, by the men who manned the vehicles. OKW, by and large, tried to discourage this; they were not entirely successful. As I stated before, the national flag was used for Luftwaffe ID, during ground-attack missions. Later in the war, when Allied air power ruled, the use of the flag was largely discontinued; in cases where it was not, provisions were usually made to hide or remove it quickly in the event of an air attack. The marking you refer to (the palm/swastika of the DAK) was a divisional symbol, and was the only one of it's like used anywhere in the Wehrmacht. Not even the Waffen-SS used the swastika; the closest was 5. ss Pz. Div. Wiking. Their divisional marking was a "sunwheel". So, in essence, the German High Command did not accept the swastika as a valid military ID marking. Units which used it were not authorized to do so, but were also not reprimanded for it. To reiterate: the Nationalist Party's symbol, the swastika, was rarely used on Heer vehicles; nor did the SS use it. RGG, or the Regiment General Goring, did not use it. It's use on vehicles was, in general, unauthorized; it's use on uniforms was, as a rule, to denote the nation to which the soldier belonged. As to the reasons why the military wore the swastika on their uniforms, but not on their tanks, lies in the history of the Balkenkreuz itself. It was modified from the WWI-era Maltese Cross, used on German airplanes and vehicles in that Great War. Like most military arms, the Wehrmacht was resistant to change it's markings. But the use of the new NSDAP symbol was accepted, mainly due to Hitler's successful wooing of the High Command. Promises of expansion, new weapons, and a return to nationalist ideals convinced many that Hitler was the right man for the job. How misguided they were. The German military commanders were not in defiance of the Nazi party; they embraced it early on, with the intent to curb Hitler and his lieutenants if they became too powerful. A final point: only high Party members wore the armbands; it was not a military uniform article, regardless of what you may have seen in the movies. It WAS dress apparel for Hitler, Himmler, Goring, and the like; as well as honor guards, parade participants, and NSDAP special units, such as the SA. Hope this clears up a few things. ------------------ The Motor Pool http://www.geocities.com/aurion_eq/index.html?976419304550 [email]kmcferren@cvn.net[/email]




Rhone -> (12/27/2000 3:05:00 PM)

I must confess I want to advertise the hell out of SPWAW but when it comes to people I know personally, I am unwilling to mention it because of the SS guy as the logo. I don't like it, I'm embarrassed by it, and by no means is the SS guy the whole, half, or main reason I play SPWAW. The SS guy plays only a limited (yet overly glorified) function in SPWAW. I'd much rather see a tank or tanks be the logo for "STEEL PANTHERS" than some evil Nazi infantryman. Hell, if you want an infantryman to represent "STEEL PANTHERS" then use a Wermacht soldier at least... But I'm guessing a PANTHER TANK might make a better logo, but that's just me! [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/wink.gif[/img]




frank1970 -> (12/27/2000 3:25:00 PM)

Mech Engeneer wrote: Frank, sticks and stones will break my bones but names will never hurt me. Want to know why? Because I'm a man and can hack it. Yes, it is me you,ve whining about. I used the term "Nazi" because the old soldier discussing American tactics was former SS, thus old Nazi (Really? read topic about waffen SS). I'm sick of all this political correctness **** (Great: donīt care about what other persons might think or feel: that is a bit of a Nazi, isnīt it? ). Tell it to me like it is. I spent 19 months sitting in the Fulda Gap with H Co 2/11 ACR and once not did any GERMAN ever thank me (Thank you very much!). No. Do I whine? No (Sure?). Did the GERMAN thugs who beat the **** out of me for dare going in their gasthaus. Did they ever say,"sorry" (Sorry. Nobody should be beaten!). No. Do I whine? No (Yes). Do I bear grudges (Yes)? No. When I used to overhear the old GERMANS males refer to me and my fellow soldiers as "Americanish schiess" or however write out american **** in german ("Scheiss"). Did they hurt my feelings (of course they did)? No. Do I bear any grudges (of course you do)? No. Are we not men here, can we take it( Do we have to?). Or if I post a message do I have to worry about hurting somebodys feelings when I tell it like it is. ... This is exactly the point,Mech Engeneer, you think it is so, you donīt think that it WAS so. You have a problem with Germany and the Germans. That is the point. [This message has been edited by Frank (edited December 27, 2000).]




adantas -> (12/27/2000 6:49:00 PM)

Hi folks!, I'm from Brazil and we fought against Germany in WWII but it was 55 years ago!!, I think that this kind of discussion makes no sense here. This is forum to support this great game and I don't believe that among you all we can find revisionist, neo-nazis or neo-something!!! I personally like to play with the Germans and I don't care if we use a swastika or SS-runes icons. they are historical symbols and if I remember, the skull and bones was the insignia of Prussian Hussards! This is only a game and if we play with human opponents we can take the spirit of the game. I can call my pal "Tommie" and he can calls me "Kraut", "hun", "Nazi pig" and if we meet after a match we can sit togheter and drink a lot and have fun!!! [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img] What's the problem????? Let's take this forum out of political discussion!!! Merry Christmas and happy new year!!! Senta ā Pua!!!




Charles22 -> (12/27/2000 10:45:00 PM)

Rhone: Wargaming is a difficult enough breed for most people to fathom. I used to read a lot on WWII (particularly about Germany), and what did I get for treatment? Many people would commonly call me a Nazi and so forth, because they were ignorant, stupid people, who saw no point in knowing history of regimes which managed to deceive an awful lot of people. Why should they? They were busy about letting themselves be deceived in various ways. Why to imply that to try to know something beyond the very basest things was an affront to their system, hence the chastisement. From where I stand, if you remove the SS soldier and put a Panther instead, you'll receive the very same treatment, particularly if they find out that the tank is German from the WWII era. If they find you play wargames, this will make you even worse of a 'maniac', or whatever word they wish to call you, so as to ridicule something they don't want to understand.




Rhone -> (12/27/2000 11:59:00 PM)

quote:

From where I stand, if you remove the SS soldier and put a Panther instead, you'll receive the very same treatment, particularly if they find out that the tank is German from the WWII era.
That's a good (if not sad) point. But I still think a Panther is more intimidating than an SS any day of the week...but that doesn't really help the argument any. I guess the big dilemna would be the actual title of the game is not meant for everyone. In the end I guess I don't mind, and as a singular gamer, that's just fine with me. Good post, Charles.




Lou -> (12/28/2000 12:23:00 AM)

Charles 22: Pretty strong stuff. "...because they were ignorant, stupid people, who saw no point in knowing history of regimes..." Most of the very few (mostly my family, go figure) folks that gave me grief about my interest in history did so because they thought history was boring. Their loss. Also, I was usually quick witted enough to heap enough coals of scorn on their heads so that they usually left me alone. On the other hand, being a typical smart-assed teenager, studying and talking about history was my version of listening to punk rock. My family didn't understand it and were vaguely disturbed by it. Teen heaven. MechEngineer: Bummer. It sounds like you had a rotten time in Germany. Several of my friends served in Germany and they loved it. A couple even married German women and stayed after their enlistment was up. A jerky highschool classmate of mine joined the Rangers to "become a man". Well, it sort of worked, he was a manly jerk. While stationed in Italy he propositioned the wrong woman, at the wrong time, in the wrong bar and promptly got the snot beat out of him...not that there's a connection or anything. Game Iconography: Yeah, I'm a little bothered by the preponderance of Nazi images in the game. But then, I take a deep breath and remind myself that it is a game. I guess what bothers me is the audio file that cues up when the SPWAW home page is loaded. I have long since bookmarked the forum page, but still I wonder... Why is there a sound bite from one of Hitler's speeches? Why didn't they use part of Churchill's "We shall fight on the beaches" speech? Or better yet, his "So many to so few" speech Or how about a reading from Eisenhower's (sp?) letter taking responsiblity for the Normandy invasion in case it failed? There are so many better, more noble, words said during the war that I wonder why Matrix picked this BS "Call to Power" stuff. That's my opinion. Lou [This message has been edited by Lou (edited December 27, 2000).]




David Heath -> (12/28/2000 12:42:00 AM)

I must jump in here and say that I agree with Frank on the taste issue. I must also say you can not take Hitler out or other unpleasnt events from WW2. We used that Hitler speech since its was the speech given as the war started. I do not think we should forget anything that happened on either the Axis or Allied side. If you go and remove Hitler or the unpleasant events this only helps to aid people in forgetting what has happened. Remember it not just the parts of WW2 you like but the full story that makes the whole history. David




The MSG -> (12/28/2000 12:47:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by JTGEN: Other thing is signes. If you see a swastika and automatically think nazi's it is in your head. It is an ancient symbol widely used in history. For example Finnish airforce marking of blue swastika on white had nothing to do with nazi's. It was used when hitler was still in WW 1 ditchess and the nazi parti did not even exist.
Sorry, the Nazi Swastika is a mirrored version of this ancient symbol, and therefore a unique symbol. This symbol was part of ancient worship of the sun, and this is what it represent. Although both the Suncross (or "sunwheel") and the Swastika have found in Europe for thousands of years it seems that NSDAP got its inspiration to the Swastika from India, where it also is a symbol for luck, although mirrored it didnt prove so lucky...(or perhaps it did in the end). The Finish Swastika is not mirrored, but the correct symbol. The reason it is in the Air Force insignia is that the Swedish count who gave the Finnish "White" air force its first aircraft during the Finnish Civil War had the symbol in his coat of arms (predating the NSDAP comfortably). ------------------ The MSG [This message has been edited by The MSG (edited December 27, 2000).]




Tombstone -> (12/28/2000 2:04:00 AM)

This kind of stuff always gets people up in arms. I personally never even noticed that the guy on the intro screen was SS, and now that I know don't really care. In america people throw around the word "nazi" a lot. Our culture finds it to be fair game. No one defends it ( it's not easy to defend ), but it's so detached from today's generation that we don't really feel it's awful weight either. I shy away from the word myself, but that's only after extensive reading. I'm 27, so I don't have any of those really deep feelings about this that those of you who are older and were closer to the action have. Here's my opinion: SPWAW is a public and international phenomenon. I don't think people will forget the SS or Hitler if they aren't reminded of it. If anything in the release is offensive to anybody, and there is reasonable replacement imagery then do it. It can't be that important, especially in the face of a game as cool as this one. But I'm not the developer, I'm not calling the shots, and I don't have all the information. Tomo




Charles22 -> (12/28/2000 2:05:00 AM)

The MSG: Actually the swastika was used in Germany by occultists (and those uninformed) before Hitler was in politics, though he gave it much more exposure. As far as the SS runes go, and all the other runes Nazi Germany used, they 'may' had been "dug up" by the Blavasky types, and thus Hitler took that under his reigns as well. I don't think the runes had any exposure, unlike the swastika, outside occultic circles before Hitler came to power.




Panzer Capta -> (12/28/2000 2:19:00 AM)

Never forgetting the bad (i.e., the Hitler orations, the swastikas, the double lightning bolts of the SS, etc.) reminds us, and our allies, of the significance of our accomplishments, and of what we must never allow to happen again.




Panzer Capta -> (12/28/2000 2:26:00 AM)

It is important not to dismiss/ignore the symbology of evil (i.e., Hitler orations, swastikas, double lighnting bolts of the SS, etc.) from WWII. This serves to remind us, and our allies, of the importance of our accomplishments, and that it must never be allowed to happen again.




Rhone -> (12/28/2000 2:30:00 AM)

Wait a second, I thought it was just a "game"? But mention removing the Nazi stuff and people talk about rememberance and "lest we forget"....? I'm confused. Is it a game or a history lesson? If it's game, then nobody would mind putting General Eisenhower on the logo along with Roosevelt, Stalin and Churchill, with Churchill reciting "You do your worst, and we will do our best" Speech. I take it people would object if they thought it more of a game and more of a history lesson. And if that is strangely the case, then why not the exclusion of any sort of Allied rememberance in the logo or themes? In any event, Nazi lovers are not the ones buying this game. It's mostly every day average people who enjoy the Steel Panthers Genre. Something to think about for sure. Especially if people were interested in perhaps marketing this product one day.




Panzer Capta -> (12/28/2000 2:50:00 AM)

Are there those who also object to the very name of the game too (i.e., would prefer the game to be called "Steel Tanks").




Charles22 -> (12/28/2000 3:02:00 AM)

Panzer Captain: If they would object to that, then obviously your moniker is a problem too. How about "Steel, Anything Other Than The Slightest Hint Of German/War Glorification Units (tank would be far too aggressive a word)?"




Panzer Capta -> (12/28/2000 3:09:00 AM)

I guess my Username is "auch verbotten".




Lou -> (12/28/2000 4:21:00 AM)

A quick summation: All Frank asked was that folks ease up on referring to Germans outright as Nazis. He isn't threatening to sue Matrix or any of the forum participants. It seems like a simple request. Of course, individuals can choose to honor Frank's request or not. Frank has a choice to stay or leave (this would be sad). It's all choices. Furthermore, no one is asking that anyone change their screen name or to even gloss over parts of history. The sense I got from Frank was that people were using the word in a pejorative rather than historical context. We can have intense, even heated discussions about the game and the history it represents without using grand (and often historically incorrect) generalities. Bottom line: A member of our community has made a request. Honor it or not. There is no penalty for refusing to honor this request. However, there may be a great benefit in taking that extra minute to think about the words that others will read. Lou




Panzer Capta -> (12/28/2000 4:51:00 AM)

I completely agree with Frank's original comments, and fully understand and respect his point of view. It is quite interesting how these discussions evolve though.




Panzer Capta -> (12/28/2000 4:57:00 AM)

My final comment on this issue is directly for Frank: I can guarantee you Frank that there is not a single person in this forum that means any disrespect to the German people. This is a fine forum comprised of helpful, well-learned, and enthusiastic individuals who make this a fine hobby.




BlitzSS -> (12/28/2000 5:19:00 AM)

Amen, to that my friend.




Securitas -> (12/28/2000 5:19:00 AM)

I have been following this thread from the beginning and found it fascinating to observe how it has devolved from a request for tact and consideration into a discussion of quasi-history and free-speech rights. I think that there can be no question in any of our reader's minds that no constructive discussion can be had if we hurl insults at each other or conduct name-calling sessions. We can all appreciate frankness, but courtesy is something we all must maintain. I think it is a mistake to focus on the logo of SPWAW in isolation and to say it does or does not glamorize an unpleasant part of history. I for one think that hiding the past will neither be successful nor useful. On the other hand, I do find it a interesting observation that in the past decade there has been a profusion of products that seem to focus on, or use as its symbology, German units, vehicles, or insignia of the Second World War. Yes, Matrix is perfectly within its rights to choose to use SS or Swastikas on its logo for SPWAW. But is it not a bit curious that so many others also choose to use similar "marketing" visuals? You will have a hard time convincing me that a British soldier in his typical helmet, or a GI, is so poorly known that we HAVE to use a German SS trooper as a symbol. But I think most of us already know that. The question is not whether we CAN put German, or in particular NAZI symbology, but whether we SHOULD. At the least, a more balanced image showing some other principal combatants in addition would be beyond reproach. ------------------ Securitas _________________________ 88 is a really nice number




Charles22 -> (12/28/2000 8:46:00 AM)

Securitas: That image there, of the German SS soldier, is probably the most recognized poster from all the posters of WWII. What could be more balanced than two Allies depicted and "one" Axis? Is it Matrix's or anyone else's fault that there aren't that many people who recognise where those other soldiers come from? Of course not. So, since the Germans did so much harm, and the Japanese as well, does this sort of thinking only allow Italians to represent the Axis with a picture (who didn't last the whole war as an Axis)? Truly, if this were done, a lot of people would have no idea which war, "World at War" was talking about. Look at the pictures. See anything there besides the SS man that tells you what war it's talking about? I don't. So, the SS man serves a purpose, since the words 'WWII at War" or something similar isn't there. In case you hadn't figured it out, one of the reasons for people being interested in Nazi Germany, has primarily to do with how much they conquered and the many mysteries as to why they didn't conquer much more (or less) than they did, to say nothing of the lessons involved with a cultured nation going mad after being put under harsh conditions by the victors in the previous war. This to say nothing of the German military having been the harbingers of modern warfare to a very large extent. Frankly I would think as the various points of interest go, that only the Soviet Union could rival Nazi Germany during WWII.




Securitas -> (12/28/2000 10:50:00 AM)

Charles22, I think you misunderstood my point. I specifically said that I did not wish to focus on the SPWAW logo in isolation. One cannot look at one game and then make generalizations about the use of appropriate imagery. However, I know that from the comments others made in this thread I am not alone in the opinion that the focus on things German is present in many forms and can be seen in the choice of merchandizing methods. The examples are plentiful, and what I find interesting is that I have quite a few computer games on the subject of WWII, and I must say that close to 1/2 of the games use German images. This in itself is fine. But considering the number of other MAJOR combatants there were, with quite distinctive faces, propaganda posters, insignia or vehicles, it is intriguing that one particular country is so relatively overrepresented. I do not accept the argument that the majority of WWII game purchasers will only recognize SS recruiting posters and the like, but would not have a clue what a Sherman looks like, or a Tommy with his typical tin pot helmet. Again, remember that I am not specifically referring to the SPWAW logo, but a general marketing trend. And as far as the German military introducing many elements of modern warfare, I quite agree. Yet Hitler's economic policies which arguably led to the rejuvenation of the German prewar economy does not make economy texts with Hitler's face on the cover. The bottom line of what I am trying to auggest here is that while in principle I have nothing against the SPWAW logo, and I often play the Germans in the game, and have tons of fun doing so, I have, as others have, observed a marketing trend that I believe is possibly, as you postulate, the result of the excitement of imagination with german military professionalism, but as those who recall from firsthand experience depart this world, there is less tempering of this admiration with the recollection of the bad things associated with Nazism. In our desire to remember the past, we may be omitting details that would allow us to best learn from it. ------------------ Securitas _________________________ 88 is a really nice number




Charles22 -> (12/28/2000 10:21:00 PM)

Securitas: Some of our perspectives are opposed. For one thing, I have noted that most people don't know where the other two soldiers are from, much less what time period. There's nothing to indicate it's not WWI, other than the SS man. You seem to think everyone recognizes the other soldiers, but you haven't commented on whether they indeed would be able to determine the time period of "World at War" relying only on the Allied pair. As far as the subject of isolating the German goes, I don't follow your reasoning. You said
quote:

The question is not whether we CAN put German, or in particular NAZI symbology, but whether we SHOULD. At the least, a more balanced image showing some other principal combatants in addition would be beyond reproach.
So, with such a statement, it seems that on one side of your mouth (from earlier statements) you want to say you don't have a problem with it, but you last statement seems to indicate otherwise. As I said, if one wishes for images to be used that signify WWII combatants, Matrix has done a marvelous job, and your last comment seems to suggest that you don't even want any Germans represented AT ALL, because the German is too overrepresented in wargaming as it is. That's your opinion. You said they're in 50% of the wargaming stuff marketing, but I think your estimate is far too low. Unlike you, I truly don't have a problem with that, The Germans started it, and were the Axis in it for the longest period. WWII gaming isn't some PC attempt to "balance" every nation by some phoney representation of all forces. It was a battle very largely aggressively fought by the Germans and Japanese, and that's why the wargaming focus is in their direction (aside from the success they had for some time). If the US were the ones with all the expansionist plans, throughout, you would see the focus their direction. To try to find social justice through diminishing some nation's role in a certain war is plain nonsense. Go start buying American Revolutionary War type games, and see the overflow of Germans represented there. What, there aren't any? Didn't they have forces that may had fought for or against the British at that time? Sure, it's possible, but they weren't the main combatants. Taking out the Germans in WWII for some lame fairness exercise to the other nations, is about the same thing as diminishing the Americans or British roles in the American Revolutionary games. Perhaps part of the reason that people even have ANY curiousity about WWII anymore, is precisely because it hasn't been subject to PC overbearance yet, and actually may be contributing to a sort of defiance to that sort of thinking by this alleged overemphasis on things Axis, or more particularly German. I can't see how Matrix's images could be more to your liking, because the Germans best represent the Axis presence, do they not? As well, there are two Allies to one Axis, as I pointed out. What could be more balanced for you? You seem to say you have a problem with German representation being too strong at 50% (which I think is higher and with good reason), but what would be an acceptable ratio for you? For to look at the images, Germans are only 33% on the logo (though one might say the most prominent). You say you don't want to focus on the logo, but it's precisely what you've done when you seem to be wanting Matrix to nix the image because it should be their duty to correct alleged gross overrepresentation of a single army in the market, particularly since it's only "1/3" of the images there and not the only one. How do you say that you don't want to focus on the image and then advise it be changed? How can you double-talk like that? BTW, I never said people wouldn't recognise a SHERMAN (but probably still wouldn't know the name of it), I referred to the very iamges that are on this screen, nothing more, nothing less. I just don't think people recognise those uniforms, and they certainly don't recognise them as to the specific time period, but what the heck, Matrix just picked out some typical WWII images, and the SS man representing the Axis couldn't have been a better choice in terms of recognition due to uniform and time period.




Ivancito -> (12/28/2000 10:51:00 PM)

From www.britannica.com: "Swastika Equilateral cross with arms bent at right angles, all in the same rotary direction, usually clockwise. The swastika as a symbol of prosperity and good fortune is widely distributed throughout the ancient and modern world. The word is derived from the Sanskrit svastika, meaning "conducive to well-being." It was a favourite symbol on ancient Mesopotamian coinage. In Scandinavia the left-hand swastika was the sign for the god Thor's hammer. The swastika also appeared in early Christian and Byzantine art (where it became known as the gammadion cross, or crux gammata, because it could be constructed from four Greek gammas attached to a common base), and it occurred in South and Central America (among the Maya) and in North America (principally among the Navajo). In India the swastika continues to be the most widely used auspicious symbol of Hindus, Jainas, and Buddhists. Among the Jainas it is the emblem of their seventh Tirthankara (saint) and is also said to remind the worshiper by its four arms of the four possible places of rebirth--in the animal or plant world, in hell, on Earth, or in the spirit world. The Hindus (and also Jainas) use the swastika to mark the opening pages of their account books, thresholds, doors, and offerings. A clear distinction is made between the right-hand swastika, which moves in a clockwise direction, and the left-hand swastika (more correctly called the sauvastika), which moves in a counterclockwise direction. The right-hand swastika is considered a solar symbol and imitates in the rotation of its arms the course taken daily by the Sun, which in the Northern Hemisphere appears to pass from east, then south, to west. The left-hand swastika more often stands for night, the terrifying goddess Kali, and magical practices. In the Buddhist tradition the swastika symbolizes the feet, or the footprints, of the Buddha. It is often placed at the beginning and end of inscriptions, and modern Tibetan Buddhists use it as a clothing decoration. With the spread of Buddhism, the swastika passed into the iconography of China and Japan, where it has been used to denote plurality, abundance, prosperity, and long life. In Nazi Germany the swastika (German: Hakenkreuz), with its oblique arms turned clockwise, became the national symbol. In 1910 a poet and nationalist ideologist Guido von List had suggested the swastika as a symbol for all anti-Semitic organizations; and when the National Socialist Party was formed in 1919-20, it adopted it. On Sept. 15, 1935, the black swastika on a white circle with a red background became the national flag of Germany. This use of the swastika ended in World War II with the German surrender in May 1945, though the swastika is still favoured by neo-Nazi groups." Hope this clears things a bit for some people. [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] As for myself, I get mildly annoyed when I see the SS guy but it doesn't interfere in my enjoyment of the game. FWIW, I make a point of never using SS troops when playing *any* wargame. However, I have no intention of presuming to tell anybody what's "right" and what's "wrong". You play the way you like it. It's a game.




Securitas -> (12/29/2000 1:24:00 AM)

Charles22: I am disappointed that you choose not to discuss an issue without resorting to fairly tactless comments about talking out of the side of the mouth and double-talk. I have seen your other posts in other threads and I respect your opinions (for that matter I agree with a lot of them). I would expect the same respect in return. Without it, any further debate is pointless and unpleasant. The other thing that is unfortunate is that, aside from what I mentioned above, most of your comments are things that I agree with, it seems to me that you are discussing one issue and I am looking at another, albeit related one. Too bad. ------------------ Securitas _________________________ 88 is a really nice number




Charles22 -> (12/29/2000 4:08:00 AM)

Securitas: There's nothing tactless about alerting you to the very thing you're doing. If you wish to keep pulling the wool over someone's eyes with such talk, it's to your loss. The "I'm not really having a problem with the logo" angle is fine and good by itself, as would be the "I don't think there's enough non-German representation on the logo" by itself, but the two don't go together, don't you see that? Is the logo, or the wargaming market's general high useage of German imagery much more reproachable, or ignoring our own conduct in trying to stop the bad use thereof? Your message, speaks many more volumes when it doesn't contradict, aside from our different positions, don't you think (not that effectiveness of our tact is the issue here)? Aren't you stabbing your message against perceived bad behavior, in the back, when you contradict yourself like that? It's a bad habit to get into Securitas, and I've done it myself a few times. To ignore it is to continue breed it's further useage. I wish you well in what I'm sure will be your unflinching efforts. One last thing, you have a problem with emphasis on Gerry representation, but look at the logo ON YOUR OWN messages (88 etc.). [This message has been edited by Charles22 (edited December 28, 2000).]




Securitas -> (12/29/2000 5:16:00 AM)

Charles22: I fail to see any contradiction in anything I have said. I CAN see why you think there is one, though, and that was not my intention, so let's try to clear that up. You feel as if I am referring to the SPWAW logo and saying it is ok, and then, quoting you "I don't think there's enough non-German representation on the logo." Here is where we are passing each other by and not meeting on the mark. Your quote would be correct *IF* we removed "on the logo". That is not quite correct, perhaps you misinterpreted what I am trying to say, because the logo you refer to is the SPWAW one. What it should read is "I don't think there's enough non-German representation on so many products out there". Keep in mind that I feel that you must not look at one product in isolation. That is why I say SPWAW is fine, if looked at alone. If ALL or MOST products followed the pattern we discussed, then it would be a problem. Does this explanation help you? Sometimes its difficult to articulate a nuance that may be subtle, but quite important. ------------------ Securitas _________________________ 88 is a really nice number




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