Best way to inflict Soviet casualties in 1941? (Full Version)

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Altaris -> Best way to inflict Soviet casualties in 1941? (2/20/2011 12:36:52 AM)

Playing a PBEM game, on Turn 14 now. Have had several really good encirclements get broken out of since around Turn 8 or 9 now, and beginning to wonder if it's even possible for Germany to make good encirclements after the first 6 or 7 turns, or even the best way to inflict casualties.

Basically, in my last turn, I had a solid encirclement of about 15 units, 2 of which were Guards. The weakest link in my chain was a clear hex with 3 panzer divs, at around 15 defense value, but I had cleared paths on both sides so I figured I was safe enough. This corps was led by Balck, so had good leadership values. The TOE's are a little beat down, around 65-70% total TOE, light tanks around 50%, and heavies around 35-40%, but still though 3 Panzer divs would hold up pretty well. However, got attacked by 6 Soviet rifle divs. Base CV's on both sides were around 160, but after adjustments, Soviets got the doubled CV and I did not, so ended up with my CV at 200, and his at 360 (1.8:1 ratio). After the Soviet +1 odds modifier (this is a ridiculously stupid rule, btw), that went to 2.8:1, and of course my Panzers retreated at that. To add salt to the wound, I suffered a loss of 90 AFVs (out of a total of 175ish)... over half my vehicles got trashed in the retreat, and they also got cut off from the HQ so no supplies or fuel the next turn.

Now this was about as well executed an encirclement as I could manage at this stage of the game. It was carried out over 2 turns, made sure to really clear out the lanes and secure the pocket, but in the end it wasn't enough. And of course with it being blown wide open, the pocket does absolutely zero good, and only puts the remainder of my picket units in very bad positioning for this turn.

So I got fed up with trying to pocket (since they don't seem to hold most of the time), and just start slamming the front lines. Started picking up quite a few routes doing this. After the 7th or 8th route, I noticed I had really racked up a huge casualty rate on the Soviets, around 100K.

This got me thinking. Since Soviet units respawn anyway if destroyed prior to November 1941, there's really not much point in destroying the unit itself. Just hitting the Soviet MP as much as possible seems to be the important part of Barbarossa. I'm beginning to wonder if that wouldn't more effectively be done with keeping a good solid straight line front, and dishing out heavy casualties with a more basic drive forward. It certainly would keep my panzers from getting utterly trashed by counterattacks against pockets that don't seem to hold anyway. I think the panzers would still be great for threatening the enemy's flanks with potential encirclement, but sticking them too far out just seems to be a recipe for disaster in this game.

Anyone else's thoughts on this?



Angelo -> RE: Best way to inflict Soviet casualties in 1941? (2/20/2011 2:22:07 AM)

I too found that a human player will break out of encircles fairly easily.

What I did was to use the panzer corps to clear large areas in the encirclements. So the soviet units can't move fast enough to relive the pocket in one turn.

In large encirclements try to cut the railroads to the pocket or pocket to be. So the soviet player can't use the railroad to move his trapped units.

Hopefully the balance issues will be resolved soon [8|]



Panama -> RE: Best way to inflict Soviet casualties in 1941? (2/20/2011 2:41:32 AM)

The Germans had a hard time closing pockets well enough to keep them from 'leaking'. Not enough bodies to do the job properly. Just sayin. [;)]



Altaris -> RE: Best way to inflict Soviet casualties in 1941? (2/20/2011 3:42:22 AM)

I realize there's some issues with the way all of this is modeled in game. For one, it's a bit ridiculous that opening a 10-mile gap in a pocket buys every trapped unit another week of "escape or rout out" option. I think the bigger issue is that it's practically impossible to have every single edge of the pocket with a gigantic lane to move the panzers into. There's almost always that little corner hex that's bordering at least 2-3 enemy hexes and very vulnerable.

Honestly, I think I would've been alright in most cases if it weren't for the stupid +1 odds modifier the Russians get. That makes their counterattacks on the weak corners too dangerous, and the trashing panzers get from retreat just adds to the misery.

But I don't want to complain too much about game mechanics. I'm just trying to figure out how best to work within the current system.

I just finished my Turn 14. This turn, I went for straight attacks against the front line, with the hopes of routing everything I could. Interesting results... I got nearly 100K Russians bagged just from the straight attacks alone, that's not counting the 40K or so I got from pockets (had a very nice pocket up north, but didn't have as many troops in it as I had hoped).

Just frustrating. I feel I've played very well so far, but I'm very low on Russian body counts. This turn I hit 2.4 million. Had I been able to bag about 3-4 pockets that got busted up by Russian counterattacks, that number would be closer to 3.5-4 million. Instead, I've lost loads of tanks (about 2,600 so far) and I'm dreading what the winter's going to bring my way...



cookie monster -> RE: Best way to inflict Soviet casualties in 1941? (2/20/2011 3:51:20 AM)

You need a high kill ration as the Germans to stand a chance.

Best way to achieve this is through pockets.

Its hard to say if your pocket was over ambitious as you have provided no picture.

Perhaps the later you get into the game, you should make your pockets smaller.

World War One tactics are not what the Germans are about. As soon as the ''BLITZKRIEG'' ends you should choose the best places to attack.

Bludgeoning your way towards Leningrad and Moscow is fair game though.

I dont know what kind of kill ratio the Germans need to have a good first winter. But in the end the Soviets manpower pool is almost inexhaustable.



Tarhunnas -> RE: Best way to inflict Soviet casualties in 1941? (2/20/2011 6:24:11 AM)

I have played as the Soviets mostly against the AI and some PBEM (have two games going now, one in 1941 and one in 1942). I have not yet been able to force a stack of 3 German Pz/Mot divisions to retreat, I would be very happy to achieve that. Even one Pz div is a very hard nut to crack for the Soviets. A Soviet CV of 360 is something I can only dream of [X(], even in the summer of 1942, certainly in the attack at least. (maybe I should ask your opponent for some advice [;)]).

As for casualties, in my experience, even routs will only result in a proportion of the units strenghth being destroyed, and as far as I understand, a part of that destroyed will trickle back into the manpower pool. When an isolated unit surrender, that means everything, men, guns, afvs, veichles, will be captured, and that means game over for them. At least that's how I have understood it, but I guess some of the testers could explain that better. I would certainly go for trying to destroy isolated units in preference to bludgeoning forward. The most significant way to reduce the enemys combat power is by cutting his supply, which also has the effect of making them easier to kill with less friendly casualties.



alfonso -> RE: Best way to inflict Soviet casualties in 1941? (2/20/2011 9:12:25 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Altaris


(this is a ridiculously stupid rule, btw)


Anyone else's thoughts on this?


Yes, why not simply "(I don't agree with this rule, btw)"?

Imagine for a minute I like that rule: that makes me ridiculously stupid?



Tarhunnas -> RE: Best way to inflict Soviet casualties in 1941? (2/20/2011 9:21:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: alfonso


quote:

ORIGINAL: Altaris


(this is a ridiculously stupid rule, btw)


Anyone else's thoughts on this?


Yes, why not simply "(I don't agree with this rule, btw)"?

Imagine for a minute I like that rule: that makes me ridiculously stupid?


According to the manual, this rule is to offset other effects that make the Soviets take higher casualties. In my experience when playing, the Soviets generally take more casualties, whether winning or losing, attacking or defending. IMHO this seems about right.

Edit: BTW I agree with Alfonso. This is a great game, meticulously researched and designed. I might disagree with some aspects of the simulation, but I wouldn't call anything stupid!



Mehring -> RE: Best way to inflict Soviet casualties in 1941? (2/20/2011 10:39:46 AM)

I'm wondering wether you guys that can't seal off a pocket are attacking right. To start, recce the ground comprehensively. You don't want divisions popping up unexpectedly in woods or swamps, soaking up MP you could have used to drive if you'd chosen a different route.

You need to echelon your units, choose targets that are appropriate to their qualities and leave off the units which will be able to move the furthest till last. Very generally, start attacking with infantry, follow up with low MP mech, and finish your encirclement with high MP units you've been holding back. This can sometimes break up your corps organisation but with enough AP you can reassign units if necessary. Obviously, within this general rule, you want to avoid attacking swamp hexes with mech units. Assign anti-tank and anti-aircraft units to infantry if they have to attack tanks.

You can also work out where you're heading and move all your encircling units up to an assembly point so you can see who has the MPs you need for breakthrough and exploitation roles. Move as far as you can as a division before you breakdown into regiments, you will move further that way. Defend your encirclement in depth, the Russians don't usually have enough units with sufficient MP to make multiple attacks unless you've left a concentration outside the pocket- your goof if you did. Neither, in summer 1941, can they usually move more than a hex between your ZOC.

A good tactic against a tough defence is sometimes to stack a couple of units and launch hasty attacks. Work out beforehand if you need a couple of units with less MP or one with many and the other with few or none. Use your air support wisely.

Have all the general rules in mind and consider all the variables as you go. Yes, the Russians will break out of a loose encirclement. So next week make it tighter until you've got them.



heliodorus04 -> RE: Best way to inflict Soviet casualties in 1941? (2/20/2011 3:24:12 PM)

Also for the new guys, read more AARs.  AARs produce good discussion, pictures, and analysis of what people do right and people do wrong.



PyleDriver -> RE: Best way to inflict Soviet casualties in 1941? (2/20/2011 4:00:24 PM)

I agree, its hard to say what went wrong without a screenshot....



PeeDeeAitch -> RE: Best way to inflict Soviet casualties in 1941? (2/20/2011 4:10:29 PM)

And even armored units, when lower on TOE and having moved nearly their full movement can be far more brittle than expected.  Even just not having enough ammo (if they have fought earlier in the turn) can mean they have lost a lot of punch. Units on an encirclement can also be out of command, etc...

Lots of things can happen.



Altaris -> RE: Best way to inflict Soviet casualties in 1941? (2/20/2011 7:27:12 PM)

Okay since everyone seems to require a screenshot, I'm including them below. BTW, I wasn't asking for what I did wrong... I'm sure everyone and their grandmother is going to say I should've brought heavier units in, but that just wasn't possible. Fighting in this area has been BRUTAL since Turn 4 or 5. This was absolutely the best pocket I could pull off, of that I'm sure. I was more interested in seeing what people's thoughts were on attempting pockets at great risk to panzers as opposed to just bulldozing forward. Personally, by the end of Turn 7 or 8, I've found bulldozing actually does more damage to the enemy, and keeps me from getting hit with devastating losses like this. For reference, my opponent has been using linebacker defense in AGC since early on, like 5-6 levels deep. Very difficult to get around ZOC's with that kind of defense in depth. I think from the screenshots everyone will agree that it was the doubling of the Soviets CV while I did not get mine, which pushed it to 1.8:1 odds, +1 for Soviets going to 2.8:1.

Prior to battle.

[image]local://upfiles/32587/7BF8144C3434452F816A93E2CB686483.jpg[/image]



Altaris -> RE: Best way to inflict Soviet casualties in 1941? (2/20/2011 7:27:39 PM)

Battle results.

[image]local://upfiles/32587/C3595EE31A3E4CD6BDEA2A8B998EA01F.jpg[/image]



Altaris -> RE: Best way to inflict Soviet casualties in 1941? (2/20/2011 7:29:26 PM)

Oh, btw, if you look at this screenshot, you'll see that at least 3 of the units that attacked me were also already in the pocket.

EDIT: And yes I'm aware the pocket got busted in the west too, but that wouldn't have been earth shattering, as I'm closing off that end... the loss of the panzers is what really got under my skin.



PeeDeeAitch -> RE: Best way to inflict Soviet casualties in 1941? (2/20/2011 7:40:07 PM)

Those tanks were really blown, had they attacked earlier in the turn?



JAMiAM -> RE: Best way to inflict Soviet casualties in 1941? (2/20/2011 7:41:23 PM)

Nice counter encirclement by your opponent.

What you did wrong was to keep everyone overstacked and in too narrow an encirclement. If you can't give yourself some operational wiggle-room, then encirclements can often lead to this kind of counterstroke. You need to penetrate on a wider front, so that your units have available hexes to retreat into, if they get a retreat result. This also prevents the massive CV adjustment that occurs when there is no valid retreat hex for the defending stack.

You would have been better off by not putting all of your eggs into one basket, and occupied the other vacant hexes with single units instead. By not occupying the hexes next to the encircled units, you allowed them unimpeded movement to get into position to make a deliberate attack. Not just from 2 hexes, but from 4. All those stacks of 3 units that you had should have been spread out a bit more to keep this from happening.



Angelo -> RE: Best way to inflict Soviet casualties in 1941? (2/20/2011 9:51:12 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Altaris

I was more interested in seeing what people's thoughts were on attempting pockets at great risk to panzers as opposed to just bulldozing forward.


Well, I would not risk my panzers period, definitely not on those type of encirclements. And bulling-dozing forward is the best way to lose against the Russians. You may cause some casualties but you'll face an ever increasing Russian army.

So, other approaches must be used to achieve victory.

Out of curiosity what are you're options set to? All normal?



Altaris -> RE: Best way to inflict Soviet casualties in 1941? (2/20/2011 11:04:59 PM)

Yes, all options are set to normal. We started on patch 2 and have upgraded through all beta's, so some changes as the game has progressed.

At this point, I agree completely that my approach is not working... the reason I came here looking for advice. However, I don't see how else I can run an encirclement except in the manner that I am doing, punching a 3 lane path and trying to close it off around enemy units. The problem is my opponent does a 4-5 line deep linebacker defense, so punching 3 lanes is very hard to do, and requires my panzers attacking to seal off a pocket. That's how the panzers get trashed, especially after many turns of activity. These panzers in questions started the turn at 10-11 CV (which seems to be pretty typical for my panzers these days), but by the time I moved in to seal the pocket, they drop significantly.

So what's the "proper" way to encircle then? Do you have to plan it over multiple turns, opening lanes and hoping you can still bag some units? That's the only way I can see it being successful. Problem I've had with multi-turn encirclements is that the Soviets get their good units out in time, so the results are very disappointing.

With it being turn 14, I don't have time to really change up my strategies for encirclements at this point. So I've just switched over to bull-dozing, which seems to be working rather well against his fairly trashed front-line stuff. I bagged a pretty large number of casualties from routed Soviet units this turn, far more than what my typical encirclements have been paying off. He's only at 2.5 million casualties, so I'm in the position of having to do what I can to up that ante a bit before I miss my opportunity.



Jim D Burns -> RE: Best way to inflict Soviet casualties in 1941? (2/21/2011 12:01:41 AM)

Not sure how you are doing things, but I always lead with my infantry when trying to do a large encirclement. They usually have enough movement to always do a deliberate attack on the first line and then a hasty attack on the second. Then I bring in the panzers to clear the next lines of defense beyond that.

Generally this works well, and I’ve never pushed my panzers as hard as you have here and left them weak and exposed to counter-attack. It could well be worth your while to take a turn to build up supplies at your panzers HQs a turn before you launch a big attack. Pushing them hard every single turn against a strong defense is a recipe for disaster.

And finally, if the infantry fails to open a wide enough breach to get the panzers through to the back lines unimpeded, you have to have the discipline to halt your attack since you’ll run out of movement due to zocs. Better to move everything forward into position for a strong attack the next turn than to push your troops too hard when there is no hope of achieving the goal.

Not saying that’s what you’ve done here, just offering some food for thought.

Jim



Angelo -> RE: Best way to inflict Soviet casualties in 1941? (2/21/2011 1:36:11 AM)

There is a basic set of instructions in the war room forum under 'Panzer Puncture (or how to break a solid line)'

Agianst your current opponent this may need to be modified to a 5 or 6 hex opening so he can't relieve the pocket.

Make sure to rest your panzers, if need be use a HQ build up, before attacking.

If the infantry does not punch a good hole, have the infantry attack for another turn.




mmarquo -> RE: Best way to inflict Soviet casualties in 1941? (2/21/2011 1:53:08 PM)

Frankly, often the best thing to do IMHO is to be a bit less ambitious - try smacking the front line real hard on either side of one or two Soviet stacks, and then cut them off in a smaller pocket but with a solid line of Axis units facing the Soviets on the other side. After the "heady days" of summer 1941, attempt smaller pockets. This is a hybrid approach of the steamroller combined with smaller pockets.
Marquo



Crimguy -> RE: Best way to inflict Soviet casualties in 1941? (2/21/2011 4:37:28 PM)

Everyone has their opinion, but I'm leaning a bit toward the lack of combined arms in that hex, i.e. it's comprised solely of pz divisions. I like to keep, if possible of course, an infantry division as well as an armored division in the hex - I don't know the algorithms involved but I've found that, particularly when attacking or defending in woods or mountainous terrain, infantry is a must. The trick of course is keeping your infantry units up to speed with your mechanized forces - no mean feat with deep penetrations.



WilliePete -> RE: Best way to inflict Soviet casualties in 1941? (2/21/2011 5:00:52 PM)

Brutal is an understatement! Your Panzer divisions are mauled and it's only Turn 13. My opinion is that if you only have weak units to tie the pocket off against a human player, then it's probably not worth sticking your neck out that far. I'd take those Panzers off the line and refit them properly while you bulldoze forward.



2ndACR -> RE: Best way to inflict Soviet casualties in 1941? (2/21/2011 5:05:33 PM)

Won't make much progress either way. 1 hex advance at most against level 2+ forts. By the time his armor is back up to snuff, they will be level 4 forts.



PeeDeeAitch -> RE: Best way to inflict Soviet casualties in 1941? (2/21/2011 5:48:15 PM)

That is why, I think, the opening destruction of the Soviets (in the first 3 turns) is crucial. This puts them off balance, and allows large advances. If one does not pocket/destroy in the South, does not reach the Dnepr on turn 2/3, and take Pskov early (turn 3/4) than the game becomes a slugfest. See Charon Jr's opening turns - the Soviets just went "poof" and that gave him mobility and the Soviets remained off balance.



kirkgregerson -> RE: Best way to inflict Soviet casualties in 1941? (2/21/2011 5:54:07 PM)

Yeah, I agree. Can't see that the bull-dozer approach as the axis in Aug-Oct 41 will have much success unless you've already weakened your opponent.

Those panzers are in need to a rest/refit. I take it he's not really taken the out of the line in 12 turns? I usually try and rest my panzers about every 3-4 turns in order for them to get their punch back.

If you stick units out in clear against the sov forces, you need to realize they will have no fort level and will be fatigued. This, it won't be too for a sov player with some units (like your situation) to push you back. The fact that you had to retreat in zoc I think caused more loses?

I'm not sure what is the magical number after the last patch of sov out of action to give you a prayer during winter 41-42. My guess is maybe 4-5 million. If you don't get at least 3.5 million before winter, I think the axis player is screwed against a competent sov opponent.



Q-Ball -> RE: Best way to inflict Soviet casualties in 1941? (2/21/2011 6:25:08 PM)

A competent Soviet opponent is not going to lose 4-5 mil men in 1941, IMO. Just won't happen, unless there is a major error.



abulbulian -> RE: Best way to inflict Soviet casualties in 1941? (2/21/2011 6:46:36 PM)

Yeah, I think the axis player needs to rely on some major sov blunders in 41 to get through the winter in any shape for a decent 42. But I'm not convinced that the sov player should be imposed constraints to make the blunders happen artificially. Still unsure as to how play balance will be with latest patch. A lot of great changes were made recently. I still feel adjustment to blizzard concerning a Germans units fort level should be on the table. Those 13 turns are just a bit too brutal and the axis players needs a small bonus for units in forts dealign with attrition and final CV def value.

This topic has been explored in other posts.



Altaris -> RE: Best way to inflict Soviet casualties in 1941? (2/22/2011 2:45:45 PM)

This turn was better, used some of the better tips I got here. I think one of my biggest problems has been not concentrating enough armor, particularly where the Soviets have very dense defenses set up (which is most of the front now...)



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