Our past dealings with you have been terrible! (Full Version)

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Litjan -> Our past dealings with you have been terrible! (2/20/2011 7:48:55 PM)

Every once in a while when my relationship with an empire isnīt so great, I seem to have a problem with rules of engagement within my navy. Even though I am clearly not at war, once in a while we seem to open fire on each other, I get the wailer and I can see the fight.

I donīt know if its my ships or his opening up, but I definitely get the blame for it in the diplomatic context. "Your past dealings with us have been terrible -67" or so.
This makes an already stressed relation go downhill pretty quick.

My questions: Is this intentional? It seems realistic, some young soldier on the gun pulling the trigger after getting too nervous - if so, how can I avoid that?
I really donīt want to start wars with superior empires and I would love to give my navy an order of "Never, ever shoot at empire X! If they attack, flee if at all possible!"

This is playing the latest Beta.

Jan



WoodMan -> RE: Our past dealings with you have been terrible! (2/20/2011 8:06:20 PM)

Not sure about the exact circumstances, but there could be a few things that are causing this.

1.  Sometimes other Empires will fire on you in an attempt to provoke you into war.  This depends on your relationship with them and what kind of personality traits their Empire has.

2.  You accidently shot at them a long time ago.  If this happens the ship you fired at seems to keep a grudge against you and shoots at your ships, which then return fire automatically.  Not sure if this still happens in the most up to date version of the game or not, but it definately used to happen in the past.

3.  Unexplained weirdness.  Some people have had their ships fired on from an Empire they have good relations with and it seems there is absolutely no explanation why [&:]

4.  You have a mining base in their system and you didn't realise.  Owning stuff in systems owned by other Empires causes your relations to drop.  On some occasions I built a mining base in some obscure system and later on an AI Empire colonized a planet there.  I didn't even realize I had a base in their system because I got there first, but our relations were going down hill steadily.

5.  Screwing them over in trade deals.  Did you make a trade deal with them once where they seemed unhappy in response, or did you demand something or else we declare war?  This makes them get "Our previous relations have been terrible".

6.  Did you get agents caught doing something naughty to them?  This leads to relations and overall reputation drop.

7.  Did you ever hire pirates to fight them?

8.  Is your reputation low?

Lots of things could be causing it [:D]



Data -> RE: Our past dealings with you have been terrible! (2/20/2011 9:32:08 PM)

If you don't have anything from the above list some other players have noticed this. Even so, it's a good idea to verify WoodMan's list just to make sure you've eliminated the known / expected causes.



Shark7 -> RE: Our past dealings with you have been terrible! (2/20/2011 11:48:49 PM)

Woodman's list #3:

I've actually had an AI empire attack my warships with a fleet of light freighters. That didn't work out so well them. Again, unexplained (but often comical) weirdness.



feygan -> RE: Our past dealings with you have been terrible! (2/21/2011 12:15:17 AM)

To reference woodman's point #4 I generally always check this when I see either bad relations or "we covert your colonies and resources". The easiest way I find is just open up a diplomancy window with the empire and check if there are any contested bases/colonies on yours or their side. Bear in mind though that more often than not if you find they have a mining base in your territory they ask stupid amounts of creds for them, and the amount just goes up with time.

In those cases I bide my time with some mild grudges while hunting pirates to get my rep high then have some young soldier "accidently" use the base for target practice.



Apheirox -> RE: Our past dealings with you have been terrible! (2/21/2011 1:16:52 AM)

Like the OP I've tried having diplomacy with some angry empire pop up asking me to stop attacking them. I do believe there is a bug.



J HG T -> RE: Our past dealings with you have been terrible! (2/21/2011 6:48:17 AM)

The attacking ships "bug" is kinda strange.
In my current game I've got Zenox as neighbours and have great relationship with 'em (delighted) even though I count them as my rivals. In the early game they sometimes attacked my mining bases and transports with some random escorts, and when I contacted them to stop that they actually seemed to know about the attacks and told me that the captains responsible would get some scolding. After couple of these interactions the attacks stopped for good.
Strange thing indeed... 



Data -> RE: Our past dealings with you have been terrible! (2/21/2011 7:05:43 AM)

I think the difficulty level playes also a role here, how many of you did notice this on chaos? Anyone played with this setting below or way below chaos? Did it happen then as well?
I for example play on normal and never noticed this.



J HG T -> RE: Our past dealings with you have been terrible! (2/21/2011 7:08:38 AM)

Good point there Data. I'm playing with restless currently. One up from normal if I remember right.
My past games have all been on normal and this has happened me once or twice back then.



Data -> RE: Our past dealings with you have been terrible! (2/21/2011 7:18:22 AM)

Aha, so it still happens on any level but it seems to happen rarely on lower ones and more often on higher ones.
I'm inclined to think this is wad, to make things that much harder on higher difficulty levels.



sbach2o -> RE: Our past dealings with you have been terrible! (2/21/2011 9:15:18 AM)

In my current game (on 'restless') I've generally had two classes of such incidents:

1) Ex-pirate escorts and frigates being attacked after the pirates joined my empire.

This most often seems to happen shortly after these ships have been taken in, sometimes while they are on their way to retirement or retrofit. Usually, the pirate ships I keep are those of my own designs (the pirates still copy the big empires's models). But at times I just retrofitted a few escorts here or there, not because it might have been economically sound (it is often more expensive than a complete rebuild, unless the designs are very similar to yours) but because I could and had money to spare.

My guess is, these incidents are due to a bug that prevents these ships from being fully recognized as mine instead of a pirate faction's. Maybe they were already being hunted by later attackers while making the switch to my empire. So whether this should be seen as a bug or as 'flavor' is arguable. However, I have doubts that all these incidents happened shortly after a switch to my faction. Some of the attacked ex-pirates were too far from any recent pirate action and had been pursuing standard escort duty. Of course, these may belong to the other class:

2) Spurious attacks on certain ships in my navy

Facts about these:
* It just affects a few ships of mine and those recurrently (if they survive, which they usually do because I am far ahead of any rival).
* If I let these engagements run their course, they have no effect on relations. Neither does the rival AIs view of my empire waver nor does my people's view of them (this is important, after all, I look like the attacked faction).
* If I send aid to the attacked ship, this is handled like an unprovoked attack from my side with a massive drop in relations, like from +50 to -100. This usually leads to war when not mended quickly.

Note, that all of these observations were made under game versions up 1.5.0.2beta. I made the switch to the current version just yesterday. Anyway, these observations put together lead me to believe that there is a bug at work that lets the AI turn a blind eye on these spurious engagements regarding either which sides are actually engaged or regarding their effect on relations.



tjhkkr -> RE: Our past dealings with you have been terrible! (2/21/2011 3:24:57 PM)

I have seen my ships open fire on someone I have a treaty with. I just presume that the smartest thing to do in deep space is to keep my armed forces away from their armed forces.
As to pirate vessels, if any join me, I usually cannabalize them for the technology boost.



feygan -> RE: Our past dealings with you have been terrible! (2/21/2011 3:55:21 PM)

haps the universe peace setting is the cause of this rather than a bug, since race relations are set via the bias.txt. It would make sense that the higher up the scale you go the more itchy trigger fingered captains you get as this is what causes wars.

Although constant war can sometimes make things harder for the player i've stopped using the chaos setting as it also makes forming group alliances almost impossible as your buddies just start shooting each other and your alliance collapses leaving you stuck having to pick a side or loose favour with both.



Data -> RE: Our past dealings with you have been terrible! (2/21/2011 4:16:48 PM)

Are alliances viable ? I admit I never used them as I fear do be drawn in the wars of others and then abandoned there by my so called ally.



J HG T -> RE: Our past dealings with you have been terrible! (2/21/2011 4:25:50 PM)

Alliances are viable, but you must be EXTRA careful when choosing who you want to ally. Best allies for me are empires slightly smaller than mine and possible located in some remote, but still handy location, from where they can assist me safely and not get involved in any unnecessary conflicts.
Liking me naturally is always a plus, but I've had some unexpected alliances in couple of my games. Weirdest was probably the alliance of my Merchant Atuuks and Militaristic Sluken. "We do not like baths or genocidial dictators". Yeah right... [8|]



feygan -> RE: Our past dealings with you have been terrible! (2/21/2011 4:39:19 PM)

The thing I like about DW alliances over all others is how fluid they are. Even CIV IV has a simple on/off type switch where you ally with empires and tell them how to act towards other empires. DW means you have to try and find the folk who get on well with various species/governments and then try to gently prod them along by helping with enemies and hoping for the best, but at no point having any of them tied into anything concrete with each other that you force.



Data -> RE: Our past dealings with you have been terrible! (2/21/2011 5:06:11 PM)

Hmm, some good tips here. Thanx guys, I think it's time I explore this in some more depth.



Wreck -> RE: Our past dealings with you have been terrible! (2/21/2011 6:25:39 PM)

I've definitely seen the loss of relations for converted pirates.  I was playing a game where I killed a pirate base and a nearby one converted.  Immediately I got the "you're attacking us" message and loss of relations, for a pirate frigate (now mine) that was in the middle of attacking a friendly race.

On alliances, generally they are OK, but do not have more than one at a time with other races if they at all overlap each other.  I did that in my first game, then one of my allies attacked the other.  I then had to decide which one to support, and I think chickened out of war.  This resulted in a large loss of respect for me galaxy-wide.  Which makes sense, since I had foresaken an ally.



tjhkkr -> RE: Our past dealings with you have been terrible! (2/21/2011 7:19:06 PM)

My big fear about alliances is that they may engage an enemy that is not known to you, and then their technology level leaves you in the dust.[X(]

I have also had situations where I have defended another group, and then while I am defending them, they hire pirates to work me over... [:-] Naturally, something has to be done about that...



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