Routed Units - recovery when? (Full Version)

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abulbulian -> Routed Units - recovery when? (2/23/2011 1:08:09 AM)

Just curious if people are under the impression that routed units will stay routed for at least one friendly player turn?

example:
t1(axis) - sov unit routed by axis attacked
end t1(axis) - logistics phase: sov routed units don't check to recover, but axis routed units do?
t1(sov) - previous turned routed sov unit(s) are still routed (?)
end t1(sov) - logistics phase: aix routed units don't check to recover, but sovrouted units do?
t2(axis) - previously routed sov unit may or may not still be routed?


---
I think I just saw a situation where a sov unit recovered the axis logistics phase and thus did not remain routed for at least one owner player turn. This would seem very wrong. Not crazy about the whole 'routing' mechanics already, but this situation would be considered a bug?

This would mean that both axis and sov units attempted to recover on *any* logistics phase?



2ndACR -> RE: Routed Units - recovery when? (2/23/2011 1:55:29 AM)

I am not sure, but I know I have seen Romanian units that route take quite a few turns to come back into play.



GFelz -> RE: Routed Units - recovery when? (2/23/2011 2:03:33 AM)

According to the Logistics Phase Details, section 4.2,

Axis Logistics Phase (start of Axis turn only):

Set Weather segment (22.2)
Activate Axis Armies segment (10.3)
Upgrade/Convert Ground Element Pools segment (21.1)
»» Note that though this segment only occurs during the
Axis Logistics Phase, it happens for both players.
Set Unit Withdrawals segment (18.4)
Axis Ally Surrender Check segment (19.1.4)

Soviet Logistics Phase (start of Soviet turn only):

Rename Soviet Air Group Units segment (8.1.4.3)
Award Guards Status segment (9.2)
Rename Soviet Fronts segment (7.6.6)
Rename Soviet Air HQ Units segment (8.3.2)
Disband Soviet Corps HQ Units segment (18.5.2)
Lend Lease delivery segment (21.5)
Recruit Partisan Units segment (17.1)
Partisan Air Supply segment (17.1.1)
Partisan Attack segment (17.1.2)

General Logistics Phase (for both players):

Withdraw Air Group Units segment (8.4.2)
Recover Disabled Manpower segment (18.2)
Add Admin Points segment (12.1)
Take Control of Isolated Hexes segment (15.12)
Determine if Town, City and Urban hexes are linked to the Supply Grid segment (20.1)
Upgrade Unit Fortification Level Status segment (15.3.2)
Reinforcement segment (18.1.1)
»» Reduce Unit Delays sub-segment
»» Reinforcement Arrival sub-segment (18.1.1)
Upgrade Unit TOE (OB) segment (7.2.2.1)
Ground Element segment (7.2.2.1, 21.1.9)
»» Upgrade Ground Element Types sub-segment
»» Swap Ground Element Types sub- segment
Aircraft segment (8.1.5, 21.1.9)
»» Upgrade Aircraft Types segment
»» Swap Aircraft Types segment
Production segment (21.0)
»» Add New Production sub-segment (21.1)
»» Upgrade Factories sub-segment (21.1.9)
»» Expand Factories sub-segment (21.1.8)
»» Calculate Total Rail Capacity sub-segment (21.1.11)
»» Supply Town, City and Urban hex sub-segment (21.1)
Calculate Vehicle Fuel Requirements segment (20.3.3)
Ground Element Training segment (9.3.1)
Air Group Unit Training segment (9.3.2)
Replacement segment (18.2)
»» Return damaged Ground elements sub-segment (18.2.1)
»» Return excess support squad Ground elements sub-segment (18.2.1)
»» Refit sub-segment (18.2.1)
»» Normal replacement sub-segment (18.2.1)
»» Aircraft replacement sub-segment (18.2.4)
Supply segment (20.4.2)
»» Emergency vehicle reallocation sub- segment (20.1.4.2)
»» Set Unit Supply Requirements sub-segment (20.1)
»» First supply delivery sub-segment (from HQ units) (20.4.2)
»» Automatic Rail Repair Unit movement sub-segment (14.2.1.1)
»» Emergency Rail Repair sub-segment (14.2.1.1)
»» Second supply delivery sub-segment (from Railheads) (20.4.2)
Vehicle Attrition segment (20.1.4.3)
Adjust Vehicles in Units segment (20.1.4.2)
Add Unit Fatigue segment (9.4)
Ground element attrition segment (9.5)
Reduce Fatigue and Repair Ground Elements segment (9.4.1)
Ready and Repair Aircraft segment (8.1.1, 18.2)
Aircraft attrition segment (9.5.4)
Unit withdrawal segment (18.4)
Support Unit Transfer segment (7.6.3.2)
Fortification level build segment (15.3.2)
Damaged Rail line hex repair segment (14.2.1.1)
»» Recall Construction support units sub-segment
Ground Reconnaissance segment (13.1)
Rally Routed Units segment (15.9.4.1)
Leader segment (11.0)
»» Promote Leaders sub-segment (11.4)
»» Improve Leader Ratings sub-segment (11.2.6)
»» Change Leaders sub-segment (11.4.3)
Set Unit Move Allowance segment (14.1.2)
Freeze Inactive Units segment (18.1.1)
Check Isolated Unit Surrender segment (15.12)
Change Leader Status segment (11.0)
Remove Empty Units segment
»» Combat units without any ground elements are removed from the game

This suggests that both sides' routed units check every time they can. Also,

quote:

15.9.4.1. RALLYING ROUTED UNITS
Each turn during the friendly logistics phase a routed unit will attempt to pass a range test to
its HQ in which Rnd(range to the unit’s HQ) must be less than two. If this test is passed than
the leader of the HQ unit attempts to rally the unit with a morale rating check. There is a twenty
percent chance that when an NKVD regiment (not division) rallies, it will be automatically
disbanded. There is also a twenty percent chance that Soviet tank divisions that rally will either
be disbanded and returned as a reinforcement Soviet tank brigade per section 18.1.1.1 (if prior
to September 41) or immediately converted to a tank brigade (starting from September 1941
until the end of 1941).



abulbulian -> RE: Routed Units - recovery when? (2/23/2011 2:07:27 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

I am not sure, but I know I have seen Romanian units that route take quite a few turns to come back into play.



Well that goes without saying. The game treats axis minors very harshly. Some of which is historical, others are without merit. When you give a county like Rom a baseline morale of 45, even when history suggests it was much much higher in 41 and up until Stalingrad. But, maybe morale in WitE doesn't not equate to morale as we know it in terms of a soldier's fighting spirit. Who knows, it's just too bad.



abulbulian -> RE: Routed Units - recovery when? (2/23/2011 2:11:03 AM)

quote:

This suggests that both sides' routed units check every time they can. Also,


umm, wow, really? How can this be? Makes almost no sense.

[:(]

This means that a routed sov unit on an axis attack can potentially recover before the sov player starts their player turn? Am I missing something or is this just whacked? Why would this even be possible? A routed unit should stay routed for at least that friendly player turn would seem to be more logical for playability reasons.



2ndACR -> RE: Routed Units - recovery when? (2/23/2011 2:14:02 AM)

I have some Romanians with 65 morale and 60ish exp levels. My mountain guys. They get the most experience so they can save my butt come winter. LOL

The Huns on the other hand are very good, almost German quality. Slavs are good too. The one div you get to keep anyway.

But for the Romanians, you have to really baby them to get that morale up so the exp can increase too. But I still will not count on them for long, never at all in the winter except the mountain troops.



kirkgregerson -> RE: Routed Units - recovery when? (2/23/2011 2:25:18 AM)

OMG WTF LOL

Just asked person in my human vs human game a question about 12 routed units that I routed on my turn. So guess what, of the 12 units ONLY TWO units were still routed. This is turn 4! So 10 of the 12 recovered before the sov turn and can be used again. Just shoot me now.

I'm stunned what the heck is going on here? This is just the most ridiculous bs rule I've ever seen. GEE, so of the 12 units that routed 10 were able to recover on the sov turn? That is complete nonsense.

Who is writing this code that is allowing the sov player to kick ass in the CG? I mean really, beginning to wonder wtf is going on with testing? Sorry, but I can be pissed off because I played human vs human game in pre beta 3 and got ass kicked because of blizzard, sov super units in 42, sov player can do anything they like almost. Now they don't even they don't even stay routed for a complete turn?

IMO routing is some BS and I never liked it before cause units can magically jump all over the board and you can't touch them again that turn because they will magically jump again. Now I know that they will just recover that sov turn as if nothing happens. How convenient is that. I suppose at the rate the play balance is going I should be happy because in 42-43 (before Berlin) I'll get to have all my axis routed units recover too.

Vented... very unhappy with this latest discovery. But maybe there's something wrong with my analysis and I can still look forward to maybe squeezing out a draw. As axis in WitE I think that is being optimistic. Somebody take away Gary and Joel's communist manifesto. J/K needed some humor to recover from this latest news. Just a joke. But seriously I'm going to relax, calm down, go outside for a walk, and find some cats to throw rocks at. ok, no throwing rocks at cats..
[;)]



GFelz -> RE: Routed Units - recovery when? (2/23/2011 3:02:36 AM)

I have found that once a unit routes, it will continue to route until it has time to recover off the front lines. Also I notice that units that have recovered from routing (Sov) almost always go into an unready state; they can move but are no more than speed bumps and cannot attack (which is really annoying when you missed that status when setting up an attack).

Finally, the vast majority of us have only played the first year or two. Lets see a real Soviet army in 44/45 as they crush German resistance. From that perspective I would want my German units recovering as quickly as possible.



jomni -> RE: Routed Units - recovery when? (2/23/2011 3:52:49 AM)

Yup there's no mention of a delay in the rules so routed units can rally quickly during the side's logistics phase if the conditions are right.
I have noticed this ever since but have no complaints as these are clearly WAD.
If you're asking if it's realistic then I don't know... But a turn is a week long. Is it not reasonable for a unit to rally within a week?



PeeDeeAitch -> RE: Routed Units - recovery when? (2/23/2011 4:09:31 AM)

Sure they might return in a week, but what is that routed units status, morale, equipment, manpower?  Those might be cogent questions to ask.



GFelz -> RE: Routed Units - recovery when? (2/23/2011 4:16:24 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GFelz

I have found that once a unit routes, it will continue to route until it has time to recover off the front lines. Also I notice that units that have recovered from routing (Sov) almost always go into an unready state; they can move but are no more than speed bumps and cannot attack (which is really annoying when you missed that status when setting up an attack).

Finally, the vast majority of us have only played the first year or two. Lets see a real Soviet army in 44/45 as they crush German resistance. From that perspective I would want my German units recovering as quickly as possible.




SgtKachalin -> RE: Routed Units - recovery when? (2/23/2011 4:24:53 AM)

Rout: A disorderly retreat or flight following defeat.

I think some believe that "rout" means something other than what it really means. There is no reason for a unit to not recover in any amount of time after a rout. In fact one could argue that for a unit in a police state to stay "routed" for more than a week is unrealistic: "Get back to the front or I'll shoot you" is a big motivation.



seydlitz_slith -> RE: Routed Units - recovery when? (2/23/2011 5:23:00 AM)

Yes, having the new Kommisar show up [sm=00000106.gif] with a fresh load of ammo for his gun will often be enough to change the routing unit to unready as long as they have fled away from the immediate action.



jomni -> RE: Routed Units - recovery when? (2/23/2011 5:25:27 AM)

People are just used to the conventional treatment of Rout in most turn-based wargames.



GFelz -> RE: Routed Units - recovery when? (2/23/2011 5:34:57 AM)

What are the unconventional treatments?



heliodorus04 -> RE: Routed Units - recovery when? (2/23/2011 5:43:50 AM)

I've understood this to be the case since I started my first game as Soviet. You can track the battles from the German turn (and you should), see the results, which will show who is routed.

I've always thought it to be working as intended.  And for certain, the 'instantly' rallied unit is a shell of its TOE and morale, which matters a great deal for the following 2 or 3 turns.

But I've been wondering, as we discuss game balance in other terms elsewhere, whether this 'instant rally' is imbalancing in that it, generally speaking (did I say generally loudly enough?), results in 'bonus movement' for a unit on a collapsing front.  Again, this works for Soviets in summer as well as Germans in the first Blizzard, so I'm not advocating it needs to get tinkered with.

But one of the mechanical limitations in this model that most frustrates me when I play German is that the route rules make it such that NOT attacking a unit is better than causing it to route, and that just doesn't make any sense to my mind...  I've accepted it, but I'm not sure it's the best mechanic...

As a Soviet, human player, it's really, really easy to safeguard routed units more than 2 turns away (after about turn 5, anyway) so that they can recover TOE, if not experience, and most importantly, dig that 3rd line of defense while recuperating. 



cookie monster -> RE: Routed Units - recovery when? (2/23/2011 5:53:48 AM)

I was surprised at how many of my Soviet Divisions appear UNROUTED and usually UNREADY at the start of my turn. And this is with hard settings MORALE is at 80 I think in the options screen.



SgtKachalin -> RE: Routed Units - recovery when? (2/23/2011 7:10:15 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04
But one of the mechanical limitations in this model that most frustrates me when I play German is that the route rules make it such that NOT attacking a unit is better than causing it to route...


This has struck me as well. Routing representing worse than retreating but better than shattering (for the defender of course) is how I'd like to think of it. And it really is, if one just looks at breaking a line.

Though the fact that pocketing units plays such a huge role in causing casualties coupled with the extremely high "movement rate" of routing units means that in practice it's actually often better than retreating. [8|]



GFelz -> RE: Routed Units - recovery when? (2/23/2011 9:04:15 AM)

Although I appreciate the concern about the nature of routing please remember that the recovery from a routed state is not a sure thing. That said I think a reduction of the number of hexes a routed unit displaces might be worth looking at. Maybe 2 hexes compared to the 1 hex for a retreat.



Kaletsch2007 -> RE: Routed Units - recovery when? (2/23/2011 9:12:40 AM)

At least, they should not be allowed to route further then their MP's. Geting attacked the same turn again, they should be destroyed.




ComradeP -> RE: Routed Units - recovery when? (2/23/2011 10:05:33 AM)

quote:

This suggests that both sides' routed units check every time they can. Also,


"Every time they can" is once per turn, as the non-phasing player doesn't have a logistics phase in the enemy turn.

I'm not entirely happy with the routing mechanism myself. It indirectly punishes good units, as they can take higher losses due to retreating and being attacked again rather than routing. Losses from routing are also not too bad, I'm facing more or less the same guys over and over in some areas in my game with notenome, but I can't destroy them.

Increasing the shatter chance for routing units would be a good start.



color -> RE: Routed Units - recovery when? (2/23/2011 11:29:53 AM)

Actually I would like to express and opinion against what seems the common denominator in this thread.

I think the system of routs, shatters and unready units (as well as depleted units) is very elegant. [:)]
Makes a lot of sense to me, given these are weekly turns, hard to simulate 7 days of fighting and fluid frontlines & changing situations leading to status as given at end-of-turn.



sillyflower -> RE: Routed Units - recovery when? (2/23/2011 1:06:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: color

Actually I would like to express and opinion against what seems the common denominator in this thread.

I think the system of routs, shatters and unready units (as well as depleted units) is very elegant. [:)]
Makes a lot of sense to me, given these are weekly turns, hard to simulate 7 days of fighting and fluid frontlines & changing situations leading to status as given at end-of-turn.

On the whole I agree with this.
Only odd thing is that they can rout, rally (or not) and still have full MP allowance. I know fear can give you wings but even so.aybe it should be halved for units are routed or which rally immediately after 1st routed.



Klydon -> RE: Routed Units - recovery when? (2/23/2011 1:40:56 PM)

Routed units also give another advantage to the defenders in an odd way as well with how the attack mechanic works.

You can use a retreated unit to help encircle enemy units with your controlled hexes. I don't have a picture handy, but lets say there is a nice stack of units in a hex with nothing behind it and you force a unit to retreat behind them. Your troops didn't have enough movement to physically get behind the nice stack, but now that there is a crappy unit behind it, you attack that unit (and it either retreats or routs) and you control the hex you could not reach behind the enemy stack, putting them out of supply. Granted that they will likely escape next turn, but in the mean time they have issues. On top of this, you could then see about attacking the nice stack forcing it to rout (no retreat available) and take heavy losses when it would otherwise just retreat. If the first unit had routed instead, then there would have been no opportunity to either encircle or cause a good stack to rout. Hopefully all this make sense. [sm=00000506.gif]

I am not saying any of this should be changed; just an observation.



PeeDeeAitch -> RE: Routed Units - recovery when? (2/23/2011 1:50:01 PM)

Klydon, this is why I always have wished for the ability to attack an empty hex or a ZOC [:)]



Mike Parker -> RE: Routed Units - recovery when? (2/23/2011 2:22:17 PM)

On routed units.

Either have them move alot fewer hexes when they rout (so you can encircle them)

-or-

Do not have them displace when a unit moves adjacent while routed.

Right now a unit gets routed, and even if it does rout into the net of the encirclement you have to jump through hoops not to end up moving adjacent and displacing it out of the pocket. In addition if it routes away in a good direction for the defender, if the attacker is willing and able to move another unit adjacent they should be able to attack it and have a good chance of surrender or shattering of said unit. Instead it just runs away again.

The attacker should WANT and appreciate a rout result. Often times I am discouraged at it. If I really thought it was an overwhelming attack, I am disappointed I did not get a shattered result, and if its a more normal odds attack I am disappointed I did not get retreat and instead the unit 'gets away'

A retreat is I would guess at least 75% of the time better than a rout. With a retreat you get the following benefits

1. The possibility of pocketing the unit with later manouver
2. The possibility to attack it again gaining
a. Another Morale boost
b. A great chance at a shattered result as usually the unit is depleted and in less favourable terrain and/or loss of fortifications


But honestly Lord knows what that would do to game balance for the soviets. So many routed Inf Divisions fall back and dig defensive positions while they refit, if you made it easier to chase them down and kill them it might unbalance things.



bwheatley -> RE: Routed Units - recovery when? (2/23/2011 2:34:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: abulbulian

Just curious if people are under the impression that routed units will stay routed for at least one friendly player turn?

example:
t1(axis) - sov unit routed by axis attacked
end t1(axis) - logistics phase: sov routed units don't check to recover, but axis routed units do?
t1(sov) - previous turned routed sov unit(s) are still routed (?)
end t1(sov) - logistics phase: aix routed units don't check to recover, but sovrouted units do?
t2(axis) - previously routed sov unit may or may not still be routed?


---
I think I just saw a situation where a sov unit recovered the axis logistics phase and thus did not remain routed for at least one owner player turn. This would seem very wrong. Not crazy about the whole 'routing' mechanics already, but this situation would be considered a bug?

This would mean that both axis and sov units attempted to recover on *any* logistics phase?




I've seen on many occasions soviet units rout then be good to go next turn. Perhaps in the early war there should be a penalty to the leadership check that lets them unrout? I'd be in favor of that.



bwheatley -> RE: Routed Units - recovery when? (2/23/2011 2:34:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kirkgregerson

OMG WTF LOL

Just asked person in my human vs human game a question about 12 routed units that I routed on my turn. So guess what, of the 12 units ONLY TWO units were still routed. This is turn 4! So 10 of the 12 recovered before the sov turn and can be used again. Just shoot me now.

I'm stunned what the heck is going on here? This is just the most ridiculous bs rule I've ever seen. GEE, so of the 12 units that routed 10 were able to recover on the sov turn? That is complete nonsense.

Who is writing this code that is allowing the sov player to kick ass in the CG? I mean really, beginning to wonder wtf is going on with testing? Sorry, but I can be pissed off because I played human vs human game in pre beta 3 and got ass kicked because of blizzard, sov super units in 42, sov player can do anything they like almost. Now they don't even they don't even stay routed for a complete turn?

IMO routing is some BS and I never liked it before cause units can magically jump all over the board and you can't touch them again that turn because they will magically jump again. Now I know that they will just recover that sov turn as if nothing happens. How convenient is that. I suppose at the rate the play balance is going I should be happy because in 42-43 (before Berlin) I'll get to have all my axis routed units recover too.

Vented... very unhappy with this latest discovery. But maybe there's something wrong with my analysis and I can still look forward to maybe squeezing out a draw. As axis in WitE I think that is being optimistic. Somebody take away Gary and Joel's communist manifesto. J/K needed some humor to recover from this latest news. Just a joke. But seriously I'm going to relax, calm down, go outside for a walk, and find some cats to throw rocks at. ok, no throwing rocks at cats..
[;)]


You might not like routing but everytime you get close to a unit that is routed they lose more and more equipment. So it's not like they do a sunday drive away from you. :)



Commanderski -> RE: Routed Units - recovery when? (2/23/2011 4:16:19 PM)

From reading Glantz's latest book I think the Routing is modeled as close to reality as they can program.

First remember that the turns are based on a week and they most certainly do regroup within that time. When they do regroup they will have lower morale and probably in a not ready state as they need new equipment and have very inexperienced leaders.

As soon as they did regroup early on, they were sent right back into the fighting. The survivors now had some experience, (good or bad), sort of like on the job training.

The Germans spent a lot of time trying to encircle divisions rather than taking them head on when they could. Encircling them and destroying them would eliminate the routing problem...[;)]



heliodorus04 -> RE: Routed Units - recovery when? (2/23/2011 4:40:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Commanderski

The Germans spent a lot of time trying to encircle divisions rather than taking them head on when they could. Encircling them and destroying them would eliminate the routing problem...[;)]

I appreciate the abstractions required for week-long turns and IGUGO systems. I would not change either of these mechanics for a game of this nature.

And again, let me re-iterate that I'm not sure we should tinker with the routing issue, with the primary reason being that it works the same for both sides (and we expect, generally, an Eastern Front game to replicate the change in initiative from Axis to Soviet over time).

The only thing that really bothers me in this is that the routing units can both route out of closed pockets, and/or route multiple times in a turn such that they've moved a tremendous number of hexes from the original combat point at which they routed. Then, on top of that, whether they rally or not in between the end of the first player and start of second's turn, they ALSO get normal movement again.

Some of the issue we see with the superior human-Soviet performance compared to historical is simply the result of this latter issue.

An idea would be to penalize a routed unit's movement point allowance based on how far he routed in the prior player's turn. Routing is awesome help in 1941 for the Soviet. I'm not sure how much it helps the German in various periods (Blizzard, 1943-45) though.




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