Opening Barbarossa moves as Germany (Full Version)

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Wikingus -> Opening Barbarossa moves as Germany (2/24/2011 10:19:31 PM)

I've so far played 2 GC PBEMs. In the first one, I routed a lot of Soviet units, causing massive casualties, but actually destroying few divisions until mid-August, when I finally managed to pocket a huge number of them (that's when my opponent went AWOL, I assume that was the reason). Up to that point I was making good progress, compared to how it went down historically.

In my current PBEM, I tried a different approach. Basically, I sacrificed the speed of advance for making sure I'd pocket more divisions. And I did destroy 100+ Sov units in the first few weeks of Barbarossa. However, the downside (and what a downside it is) is that my inf divisions were way behind my armored spearheads, not being able to cover their flanks and supply lines as they advanced. The result was that I had to stop my armored thrust a few weeks into Barbarossa to let the Pz Divisions recuperate and for the infantry to catch up. Which of course led to the result that I'm now facing a Soviet defence line where virtually every enemy unit is in a level 2-3 fort, and I'm already lagging behind the historical German advance.

So what gives? Shouldn't this second approach be more effective? I assume the first one would come to bite me in the ass later on in the game as I'd be facing more units, on the other hand, if I take time to pocket significant numbers of units, I end up facing Sov defence, 2-3 lines deep, with 3 units per hex, in lvl 2-3 forts, which are almost immune to my attacks (in July 1941, of all times...) - even when we're talking 9 of mine vs. 3 of his, deliberate attack.

So what should be a good way of starting the GC as Germany? What do you do?



PeeDeeAitch -> RE: Opening Barbarossa moves as Germany (2/24/2011 10:29:22 PM)

There are several good threads about the opening moves on the three army fronts. I am a firm believer that the first two turns are critical to the overall success of the blitz.



Wikingus -> RE: Opening Barbarossa moves as Germany (2/24/2011 10:37:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeeDeeAitch

There are several good threads about the opening moves on the three army fronts. I am a firm believer that the first two turns are critical to the overall success of the blitz.


I would have to agree. Just didn't find the right recipe yet... [:D]



Mynok -> RE: Opening Barbarossa moves as Germany (2/24/2011 11:22:56 PM)


I started by trying your second method and am now firmly in favor of your original plan for exactly the problem you specify: infantry too far behind.

Yes, I pocket fewer units on the first turn, but I pocket more on the second and third turns. In the second plan, I have to stop on turn 3 to wait for infantry to catch so I can nail the next defense line (which is in the meantime digging in).

You get a huge bonus on the first turn. Use to blow up as many units as are in the way of you infantry getting as far forward as possible. This is especially critical in the north and center.



Wikingus -> RE: Opening Barbarossa moves as Germany (2/24/2011 11:51:21 PM)

Glad to hear I'm not the only one. [:D] I'll have to decide what to do with the current PBEM. If I'm already behind schedule in July 1941, doesn't make much sense to go on, since it's only downhill from here anyway.



heliodorus04 -> RE: Opening Barbarossa moves as Germany (2/25/2011 12:02:18 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Wikingus

Glad to hear I'm not the only one. [:D] I'll have to decide what to do with the current PBEM. If I'm already behind schedule in July 1941, doesn't make much sense to go on, since it's only downhill from here anyway.

Hmm, that's kind of Germany's war in the east though, in'it?
(and I'm not sarcastically referring to our various threads about General Winter).

Here's my one big tip to air-supply of armored formations:
Always drop your air supply onto a panzer corps HQ and only drop that air supply when the HQ is in a hex by itself.

Rationale:
I have noticed that when I drop supply onto a stack with 1 (or more) units & HQ, the unit will actually absorb most of that supply (fuel, actually in this context), even if it's a regiment. That's no bueno!

Also, the HQ will distribute the supply (fuel) stockpile as best it can to all of its in-range combat units - that saves your Ju52 fleet some flying miles and gives you flexibility.

Execution Tip:
The trick in flying this HQ air supply (fuel) is to move the HQ to its penultimate destination hex (the second-to-last hex before it stops). Since you always want your Panzer HQs protected, you want to move it to the hex next to where it will finish its turn, fly the air supply, then move the HQ its last hex into the stack that will protect it.

Rationale:
If you fly all that fuel to it, and then ask the HQ to move a long way, it's going to burn up trucks.

You lose some of the fuel doing it this way (generally you end up flying more fuel to the unit than it can transport 1 hex, so it leaves some behind). But overall I'm finding it to be a real help.

Also pay really close attention in your opening few turns to the 10-hex distance between an HQ and the last, undamaged rail hex (specifically, the hex where the railhead will be on the next turn).

ALL HQs get a supply bonus if they are within 10 hexes of the railhead. In the early turns of 1941, that can make a huge difference in whether your infantry start with 8 MP or 15 (-ish).



timmyab -> RE: Opening Barbarossa moves as Germany (2/25/2011 12:22:19 AM)

Hi
This current pbem game of yours has a strangely familiar ring to it.[:D]
I am gradually coming to the conclusion that the ability to build fortifications is slightly overpowered.I think a 1 level fort in the first week is fine but then it should become steadily more difficult.I think this already applies to some extent but it needs extending.
Assuming it's our game you're refering to, I do think your mobile divisions in the South got a bit bogged down just East of Lvov.You can't really afford to waste a second in the first few weeks.The Soviets are weak, but not if they can settle in good terrain and build forts, you have to keep them off balance.It's true that a secure Lvov pocket is essential for a good opening, I think though that the strongest openings cut down towards the Romanian border East of Chernovtsy sacrificing a certain amount of security for speed.Panzer corps in that area are also a bit worrying for the Soviet player, posing as they do an immediate threat to the Southern front but still able to turn North.I would nearly always use at least one of the AGC panzer corps to insure that's achievable.
By the way another thing I noticed is that you've got twenty divisions (that I know of) in the Pripyat marches.This is like Christmas come early for the Soviet player.Try and stay out of easily defended terrain, that's the main advantage of the Southern stratagy.
If you want to abandon our game, that's fine.Do you fancy a "road to" scenario with me as Axis?





Commanderski -> RE: Opening Barbarossa moves as Germany (2/25/2011 12:30:36 AM)

In actual practice (the real war) Army Group Center was ordered to go into a defensive mode near the end of July '41 due to their forces being depleted and beat up. The Panzer and motorized divisions had to do more fighting than planned because they were so far ahead of their infantry.

When they encircled large groups they either had to close the pockets themselves or had to wait several days for the infantry to catch up to relieve them.



Krieg -> RE: Opening Barbarossa moves as Germany (2/25/2011 2:32:52 AM)

Historically the Germans thought eliminating the Soviet Army would lead to a Soviet collapse. Turns out that was not the case back then despite severe losses by the Soviets and that same strategy will not work to any real affect in WiTE. Despite yout efforts to encircle and eliminate (not rout) Soviet formations, there is no impact to the Soviet player that I can see. I could be wrong but the ability for the Soviet player to build units means he more than makes up for any losses you can deal him. Essentially we are talking the opening few moves were the germans have the fuel and supply to move far and gain large encirclements. after a few turns though, those large encirclements will be few and far between so there is no real benifit to making that the corner piece of your strategy.

IMO the best approach for the Germans is to realize you do not have the combat power to strike to any affect across all three Army Groups. The Germans did not have the combat power historically and we do not posses it in WiTE either. My approach has been different as I am still seeing what works best, but right now I am leaning at stripping most of the combat power from AGC and moving it to AGN for an all out assault to get Leningrad. It gives the biggest bang for the buck with the release of the Fins and has a real shot of succeeding if you go all in and push hard.

What this means to AGC is that you most likely will stall out at the Dnepr and get no where near Smolensk, unless the Soviet player really misses the opportunity to defend the line there. AGS fairs better than AGC but again you are not adding to their Combat power since your units are moving from AGC to AGN, so you have what you have with AGS which is not to shabby and can get you fairly far down there.

The other option I am toying with is to chop most combat power from AGN and AGC for an all out push to the South to get the resource rich areas. I have not tried that approach yet so I can not speak to it. However, with the adding of Combat Power to the North, I have a real good shot at taking Leningrad by turn 16-17 ( I think). No matter what strategy you adopt, I think the key is to marshal you power for a large strike in whichever area you feel has the greatest chance for success and gains you the advantage.

Until they patch the Soviets ability to build units, an encirclement tactic is not viable, at least PBEM. Agaisnt the AI may be a differnet story and that approach may well work depending on your difficulty setting.



cookie monster -> RE: Opening Barbarossa moves as Germany (2/25/2011 2:54:07 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Krieg

Until they patch the Soviets ability to build units, an encirclement tactic is not viable, at least PBEM. Agaisnt the AI may be a differnet story and that approach may well work depending on your difficulty setting.


Youve gotta remember the AP penalty for building Soviet units early. Here it is

quote:

INCREASED SOVIET ADMIN COSTS IN 1941
From June 1941 until the end of October 1941, the admin cost for building new Soviet on map
units (to include fortified region units, see 12.2.5) is four times the normal build costs. For
Example, in August 1941 a Rifle Division would cost 40 admin points to create and a fortified
zone unit would cost 16 admin points. The cost to create a Soviet support unit is always one
admin point.


I havent built any new units yet before turn 10. I wouldnt have the manpower left over after all my reinforcements have been carried out.



Mynok -> RE: Opening Barbarossa moves as Germany (2/25/2011 3:08:42 AM)


quote:

Always drop your air supply onto a panzer corps HQ and only drop that air supply when the HQ is in a hex by itself.

Rationale:
I have noticed that when I drop supply onto a stack with 1 (or more) units & HQ, the unit will actually absorb most of that supply (fuel, actually in this context), even if it's a regiment. That's no bueno!


Agreed. This is my experience also.

Here's the dilemma however. It is foolhardy to not stack your Pz HQs with units when they move up to keep their units in range after exploitation lest they be displaced during the Soviet move. This means you can't effectively resupply them by drop until that unit moves off in the next turn. They will then have to move again, causing strain on your transport. Best bet if of course to have a wide enough area of pending control to allow you to move your HQ to a safe hex by itself. I find this is rarely the case, especially the further into the game you get.





Wikingus -> RE: Opening Barbarossa moves as Germany (2/25/2011 12:42:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: timmyab

Hi
This current pbem game of yours has a strangely familiar ring to it.[:D]
I am gradually coming to the conclusion that the ability to build fortifications is slightly overpowered.I think a 1 level fort in the first week is fine but then it should become steadily more difficult.I think this already applies to some extent but it needs extending.
Assuming it's our game you're refering to, I do think your mobile divisions in the South got a bit bogged down just East of Lvov.You can't really afford to waste a second in the first few weeks.The Soviets are weak, but not if they can settle in good terrain and build forts, you have to keep them off balance.It's true that a secure Lvov pocket is essential for a good opening, I think though that the strongest openings cut down towards the Romanian border East of Chernovtsy sacrificing a certain amount of security for speed.Panzer corps in that area are also a bit worrying for the Soviet player, posing as they do an immediate threat to the Southern front but still able to turn North.I would nearly always use at least one of the AGC panzer corps to insure that's achievable.
By the way another thing I noticed is that you've got twenty divisions (that I know of) in the Pripyat marches.This is like Christmas come early for the Soviet player.Try and stay out of easily defended terrain, that's the main advantage of the Southern stratagy.
If you want to abandon our game, that's fine.Do you fancy a "road to" scenario with me as Axis?


Yeah, it's our GC. I didn't manage to exploit the first couple of turns, and now Barbarossa's been reduced to a war of attrition way too soon. I mean, AGS will often slow down and start a slugfest early on because of the pretty decent Soviet units down there, but this is way too much. And yes, the forts are overpowered. I can see cities with lvl 3 forts being very hard nuts to crack, but having a couple of Soviet divisions dig in in the middle of flat terrain for a couple of weeks, and then resisting the simultaneous prepared attack of 9 German divisions (armoured, infantry, and even 1-2 SS), supported by something like 100+ planes, is beyond me. Not in mid-1941 anyway. Of course, German losses will be very high in many places (as they indeed were, even early on in Barbarossa), but where such local superiority is achieved (the whole point of a Schwerpunkt), that is a bit much.

I did make a mistake with the Pripet marshes though, I should have sent that infantry corps further North of it, instead of straight through it (although that worked in my last GC, when my opponent left barely any units in the marshes).

And although I don't normally do this, I think we can end this campaign, and I'll congratulate you as the victor. It's sad but things would only have gone downhill for me from here. [:D]

We could do a Road To. I'll set one up as the Soviets. Any preference on the scenario?

EDIT: oddly enough, I am apparently a masochist, and I'll probably start a new GC before long. I should be learning the ropes by playing the AI, but once you play against a human opponent, it's hard to go back. [:o]



timmyab -> RE: Opening Barbarossa moves as Germany (2/25/2011 12:57:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wikingus
We could do a Road To. I'll set one up as the Soviets. Any preference on the scenario?

Yeah, how about either Leningrad or Moscow?
Edit - By the way, I'm now on 1.03 beta 6.



Wikingus -> RE: Opening Barbarossa moves as Germany (2/25/2011 1:41:03 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: timmyab

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wikingus
We could do a Road To. I'll set one up as the Soviets. Any preference on the scenario?

Yeah, how about either Leningrad or Moscow?
Edit - By the way, I'm now on 1.03 beta 6.


Let's do Leningrad, I want to see how total chaos looks like from the Soviet perspective. [:D]

I've updated to the new beta, and I'll set the game up on Slitherine, same pass as last game.



Aussiematto -> RE: Opening Barbarossa moves as Germany (3/2/2011 2:52:19 AM)

Having just played 2 campaigns vs the AI (which, I know is easy), I would add the following observation regarding the effect of pocketing and destroying troops vs going all out from the start. The benefit of playing vs the AI here is that it gives some basis for comparison of the different effects.

In game 1 I tried more of the 'go east and capture ground' approach; in game 2 I deliberated aimed at destroying divisions, in part to keep Panzers on the supply line  - so, while not getting obsessed about army destruction I did go a little more slowly.

Assuming that the AI will play a relatively constant response (dumb but consistent), the effect of destroying more units was profound. Yes, you have to capture Leningrad, Rostov and end up somewhere like Voroznev and through into the Caucasus from the Crimea, but if you don't destroy units, you can't get that far, and the counterattack is worse.



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