supply lines (Full Version)

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tkershner -> supply lines (2/27/2011 7:44:37 PM)

Does anyone else besides me, as an old boardgamer, think it is odd that supply lines can be traced through enemy ZOCs? Can anyone speak to that? Also I would like to thank the experienced WITE players who take the time to answer questions like this one. I, for one, really appreciate it.
TodK



bairdlander2 -> RE: supply lines (2/27/2011 7:52:24 PM)

They cant I thought.



PeeDeeAitch -> RE: supply lines (2/27/2011 8:04:00 PM)

Like many old board games, supply lines can go through occupied zocs.  Because of the fluid nature of computer games supply can go through contested zocs (one where the previous zoc is not displaced simply because a unit moves next to it), at least I believe so.



Commanderski -> RE: supply lines (2/27/2011 10:02:00 PM)

It's very real. In Glantz's latest book the Germans had several pockets around Smolensk and Mogilv that they couldn't quite close. The book states they were within 10 kilometers of closing ( 1 hex in this game). They were very frustrated that supplies and reinforcements were still coming through.

So even though 1 hex is technically a ZOC, supplies and just about everything else can come through.



Remmes -> RE: supply lines (2/27/2011 10:04:36 PM)

I think this is historical actually. Huge stretches behind the front were controlled by partisans especially the are of AGC; and more so in the later years. So German supplies had to transit an enemy ZOC every time to reach the front lines.

Check out the map....there is no 'safe' place.

[image]local://upfiles/37550/1423A5C3055542BA9B599EEBD5EC50CF.jpg[/image]



Senno -> RE: supply lines (2/27/2011 10:19:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ramses

I think this is historical actually. Huge stretches behind the front were controlled by partisans especially the are of AGC; and more so in the later years. So German supplies had to transit an enemy ZOC every time to reach the front lines.

Check out the map....there is no 'safe' place.

[image]local://upfiles/37550/1423A5C3055542BA9B599EEBD5EC50CF.jpg[/image]


True. And the area is sooo huge that enemy units could come in from a totally unexpected direction, crushing the smaller unit in a true violent completely unexpected horrible, crushing ambush. But on a divisional level, not just small units suffered such fates. Reading Glantz scares me, makes my sphincter pucker....[:D]



PeeDeeAitch -> RE: supply lines (2/27/2011 10:21:28 PM)

I always liked the German who, when interviewed, said that navigating in Russia was more like being on the sea with a compass than on land.  The area is huge, and even when a unit is "in" a hex it is spread out...



Remmes -> RE: supply lines (2/27/2011 10:26:12 PM)

quote:

Reading Glantz


I am reading War without Garlands by Robert Kershaw now; it describes very vividly how the German soldier felt in this huge, strange land with omnipresent danger.

Being sent to the Ostfront must have been a one way ticket (for most) to hell.




Senno -> RE: supply lines (2/27/2011 10:29:40 PM)

I can only be thankful that we are merely arguing about the computer representation of the war, rather than having to fight it ourselves.

And I feel worse for the Soviets soldiers. Invaded so the Germans could have liebensraum....



PeeDeeAitch -> RE: supply lines (2/27/2011 10:34:11 PM)

One time, a couple of years back, I got out of the car in the middle of Nebraska and looked around.  Were it not for the 2-lane road I was on I would have had nothing to navigate by except the sun.  When you are in the Ukraine and rumbling across the terrain there, that is what it must be like.  Huge is an understatement.



Farfarer61 -> RE: supply lines (2/27/2011 11:27:19 PM)

I met an very senior german officer in Ottawa in the 70's. He had been a very young man in Khimki in 41. It was January. We were on 'small talk' about the weather ( I thought). Then he said "This is worse than Moscow was!" It was quite a cold Ottawa winter, and Ottawa is the coldest captital city in the world ( after Ulaan Baator )...



timmyab -> RE: supply lines (2/28/2011 11:40:47 AM)

I'm perfectly happy with the way this works in the game.Don't forget that, unlike board games, ZOC are now either friendly controlled or enemy controlled.If you want to stop supplies from going through that hex you have to physically take control of it.If you can't do that then your opponent has the upper hand.Also the mere fact that the supply route is passing through an enemy ZOC will sometimes seriously reduce the ammount of supply that can pass through that hex.
On a related point.Has anyone else noticed that it's often better, in terms of movement allowance, to be completely isolated than it is to be at the end of a very long supply route?This makes absolutely no sense to me.



barkman44 -> RE: supply lines (2/28/2011 1:35:18 PM)

Then why can you isolate a pocket with 2 hexes between the encircling units?



timmyab -> RE: supply lines (2/28/2011 2:37:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: barkorn45

Then why can you isolate a pocket with 2 hexes between the encircling units?

If both hexes are contolled by the encircling units then the pocket is isolated.You may need to look here in the manual, 6.3.1. CONTROL OF HEXES
If that doesn't answer the question, can you elaborate a bit.



Tarhunnas -> RE: supply lines (2/28/2011 3:19:56 PM)

What language is that map? Bulgarian? Sure is strange spelling for it to be russian...



marty_01 -> RE: supply lines (2/28/2011 3:20:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Commanderski

It's very real. In Glantz's latest book the Germans had several pockets around Smolensk and Mogilv that they couldn't quite close. The book states they were within 10 kilometers of closing ( 1 hex in this game). They were very frustrated that supplies and reinforcements were still coming through.

So even though 1 hex is technically a ZOC, supplies and just about everything else can come through.


What is a contested ZOC? I've been playing WiTE based upon the old\traditional SPI\AH\GDW (etc etc) premise that supply can always be traced through a hex if a friendly unit occupies the hex -- regardless of an enemy ZOC being projected into the hex. But the way I am reading the above it sounds like the presence of a friendly ZOC into a hex as well as an enemy ZOC into that same hex results in a contested ZOC? I mean in the case where neither side actually has a unit in the hex in question, but both side exert a ZOC into the hex in question. So can supplies flow through a hex when the hex has both a friendly and enemy ZOC?



timmyab -> RE: supply lines (2/28/2011 3:31:08 PM)

It's not ZOC that counts, it's who controls the hex.A unit can throw a ZOC over a hex without controlling it.



amatteucci -> RE: supply lines (2/28/2011 3:54:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas

What language is that map? Bulgarian? Sure is strange spelling for it to be russian...

For sure, as you noticed, it's not Russian, It's not Bulgarian or Ukrainian, either.
Reasoning by exclusion, and judging from the charachters used, I guess it's Belarusian.



ool -> RE: supply lines (3/1/2011 2:53:30 PM)

Yes we have a very special time here in winter. One idiot went skating on the Rideau Canal this winter when it was around -37C. Rideau Canal BTW is the worlds largest skating rink. Anyway this "genius" with the brain power equivalent of a salted peanut finished the day in hospital with frozen eyeballs! Hows that for approximating German suffering in the first winter when the average temp was -40C.



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