Killing Pirates feels like an exploit (Full Version)

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Litjan -> Killing Pirates feels like an exploit (2/28/2011 4:49:04 PM)

I am fairly advanced in my game - now every few minutes a new piratesī base popīs up somewhere within my sensor range. I have one cruiser on pirate-swatting duty, so I kill the base, wait for next one, rinse and repeat. It feels like a chore, too. My reputation is pegged at "heroic", I can pretty much do what I want, everyone loves me.

1.) Pirates bases should not appear within sensor range
2.) Pirates bases should scale in firepower with the might of the empires it faces
3.) Killing pirates should give diminishing returns on reputation

How do you people feel about the pirates, especially in late game when they are just a nuisance?

Jan



Kayoz -> RE: Killing Pirates feels like an exploit (2/28/2011 5:05:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Litjan

2.) Pirates bases should scale in firepower with the might of the empires it faces


BAD idea. So later in the game, you're going to need a fleet of capital ships to handle the pirates? This is a GOOD thing?



Noble713 -> RE: Killing Pirates feels like an exploit (2/28/2011 5:11:15 PM)

Definitely agree with the need for diminishing returns on the reputation bonus. You can anger half the galaxy by invading one of your neighbors, and then just turn around and swat a few pirate bases to make it all better. The bigger your empire gets the easier it is, because you end up with 1/2 a dozen pirate bases in reach at any given time.



Data -> RE: Killing Pirates feels like an exploit (2/28/2011 5:55:42 PM)

Also agree on the diminishing returns on the reputation bonus, pirate bases not appearing on the sensors could be good for the gameplay but not realistic so I don't think I'd like it.



Kayoz -> RE: Killing Pirates feels like an exploit (2/28/2011 6:29:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Litjan

1.) Pirates bases should not appear within sensor range


Do you mean that they should be "stealthed", or do you mean that they shouldn't be spawned/created within the sensor range of fixed bases?



Litjan -> RE: Killing Pirates feels like an exploit (2/28/2011 6:35:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kayoz


quote:

ORIGINAL: Litjan

1.) Pirates bases should not appear within sensor range


Do you mean that they should be "stealthed", or do you mean that they shouldn't be spawned/created within the sensor range of fixed bases?



I think "stealthed" wouldnīt really work since you can see the ships going to and from the systems in question. So spawning them further would be a good idea, kind of like the barbarians in Civilization - they only spawn in the "wild, unexplored" areas...



Data -> RE: Killing Pirates feels like an exploit (2/28/2011 7:08:36 PM)

Pirates however need a host to feed upon so having them nearer is more realistic and more effective for them.
Suppose that a spliting faction from your empire could go pirate or even a minor race, that could also enhance their tech level or other stats.



Wreck -> RE: Killing Pirates feels like an exploit (2/28/2011 7:25:41 PM)

I noticed the problem and took to playing with fewer pirates.  There is sort of the opposite problem with zero pirates -- there is no obvious way to improve your reputation.  (Whereas there are many ways to trash it, many of which your AI subcommanders will happily do if you give them control.)  I wish this system was a little bit more complicated.  



Litjan -> RE: Killing Pirates feels like an exploit (2/28/2011 7:34:51 PM)

Yes - donīt get me wrong, I like having the pirates and they really add to the atmosphere. It is just later on they donīt seem "realistic" anymore. Which pirate in his right mind would set up his weak station within perfect striking distance of an overwhelming military force? Wouldnīt they rather hang back further, only to strike the occasional easy target? Why do they keep jumping into systems just teeming with warships? Do they have a death wish? Too much rum?

I think that the pirates need to make sense in a gameplay sense - either make them a worthy opposition, or just do away with them after a certain tech-level or military power is reached.

Oh, and when I bribe them to attack my enemy, I would love to get some feedback on the actual attacks (like being able to see theire moves) - how would I know that they are not just taking my money, otherwise?






Data -> RE: Killing Pirates feels like an exploit (2/28/2011 8:01:43 PM)

I like this, I think I also want it though I accept the idea they can take the money and not do anything...they are pirates after all.
Maybe we can infiltrate spies in their organizations....this way we can even grant them invisible bases as we can discover them through spying.

Also, I think we can have the best of both worlds....pirates spwan bases nearby in the early game and then move them farther way late game. And I actually mean moving them as their bases are not as large as some of our death stars and can be fitted with engines. Also, this would make them even harder to locate.

Maybe even the ancients or shakturi could move their worlds entirely? but this is for the wishlist.



thiosk -> RE: Killing Pirates feels like an exploit (2/28/2011 8:21:24 PM)

Seems to make sense that big powerful empires are good at swatting pirates.

Perhaps whats really needed is different galactic threats later in the game.

OH NOES SPAEC CRYSTALZ AND OOMEBA ARE ATTACK



J HG T -> RE: Killing Pirates feels like an exploit (2/28/2011 8:41:41 PM)

thiosk raises a good point.
Late game major space creatures or other strange entities that act as mini factions would be great.
BTW. I've probably missed something from classic gaming, but what are these "space crystals" I seem to hear of every now and then?



Wreck -> RE: Killing Pirates feels like an exploit (2/28/2011 8:53:03 PM)

On pirates, yes they definitely should be stealthed, and basically hide themselves as well as they can.  I mean, it is not realistic for rational beings with lifespans of years to take up piracy if they can count on a survival time of days or weeks.  And that is certainly the case when I am in charge.  Any "realistic" pirates would never head directly back to their own base -- they'd jump through several randomly chosen systems (or just points in space), using their own sensors to make sure they were not being followed.  I don't see any huge problem (outside of fuel) in programming DW pirates to do this.

Personally, I find the reputational bonus for squashing pirates to be much too high.  You get the bonus from everyone, even if they are on the other side of the galaxy from the pirates, and even if they've never encountered them (or you!).  I'd prefer a per-empire bonus that happens only with empires that had been significantly damaged by pirates of that faction.  Thus, you'd not get a bonus at all if you whack pirates quickly, and you also would not if they never managed to do any harm because the empires close were too strong.  Nor would you get it if they only victimized your own empire.

Part of the problem here is that "stealth" in DW is pretty minimal and fairly useless.  It's really difficult for any ship in DW to hide, pirate or not.  My impression is that you get to see all in-system ships anyway, so sensors only matter outside of systems.  I'd prefer a system similar to that in Stars!, where:
  • multiple stealths stack (with diminishing returns)
  • multiple sensors stack (with diminishing returns), giving you longer detection ranges.  (Stars used a fourth-root law for this: a ship with two sensor parts giving N and M distance saw sqrt(sqrt(N^4 + M^4)) against a 0% cloaked target.)
  • seeing ships that are at planets is harder than seeing them in space, requiring different higher-tech "deep" scanners (DW has "resource" scanners already; Stars had "penetrating" scanners.)
  • long range scanners of both kinds are available, but the range of the non-"deep" scanner is always longer than that of the "deep" scanner, so that both kinds are always of some use





Merker -> RE: Killing Pirates feels like an exploit (2/28/2011 9:01:02 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Data

I like this, I think I also want it though I accept the idea they can take the money and not do anything...they are pirates after all.
Maybe we can infiltrate spies in their organizations....this way we can even grant them invisible bases as we can discover them through spying.

Also, I think we can have the best of both worlds....pirates spwan bases nearby in the early game and then move them farther way late game. And I actually mean moving them as their bases are not as large as some of our death stars and can be fitted with engines. Also, this would make them even harder to locate.

Maybe even the ancients or shakturi could move their worlds entirely? but this is for the wishlist.

quote:

s a good point.
Late game major space creatures or other strange entities that act as mini factions would be great.
BTW. I've probably missed something from classic gaming, but what are these "space crystals" I seem to hear of every now and then?



It's elementary dear Data, instead of making something so complicated with pirates, why not make them like an independent colony in the sense of evolution. The pirate bases spawn further away from empires, and if they survive long enough, a nearby habitable planet is turned into a PIRATE COLONY, like Pestulon![:'(].
That colony, if it survives long enough becomes a PIRATE SYNDICATE, which deals in illegal cargo, or if that's too complicated to add, trades with empires of bad reputation, that have many trade sanctions. For example: you manage to get the korrabian spice, which you keep for yourself and your ally and deny the Dhayut empire you dislike so much. The nearby pirate syndicate, however, seeing the opportunity takes spice from you and sells to the Dhayut for twice the price, making money and expanding its fleet and colonies, eventually turning into an empire of its own.
Pirate syndicates would become a means of dealing with hated empires, or obtaining goods otherwise banned from you by the others, also housing quite a formidable fleet, in case you're looking for mercenaries as well, or if you're looking for combat...[;)], eventually becoming a threat to the middle-sized empire if left unchecked.

Pirates are such a COOOOOOL feature of this game, I believe they have been seriously overlooked. They really need a bigger role than to bother starting empires.

This idea would be so doable it would be a shame not to implement it. Go DW devs!!!



Data -> RE: Killing Pirates feels like an exploit (2/28/2011 9:17:49 PM)

Yes, Merker, I like this even more. Aside from fixing the obvious imbalances here it also extends the gameplay.
J, the only space crystal references I know are the ones from star trek and MOO2. Actually, in ST I think it was the crystaline entity so only MOO2 remains.



tjhkkr -> RE: Killing Pirates feels like an exploit (2/28/2011 9:46:09 PM)

If I may humbly offer my two cents: not trying to pick a fight, just offering an opinion.

-- Pirates should not be on a par with the local empire. Generally rebellions and pirates are not on a par with the armed forces. Consider the Somali pirates; they are no where near on a par with the U.S. Navy.
-- Drug Lords now use submarines... and even though they spend a million dollars per 'sub', they cannot submerge totally underwater, they just run under the surface. And once they are spotted, one good shot, and those subs would sink.

-- Now this is different from a privateer, a quote unquote pirate operating on behalf of government; they might have an advanced design... but if you do that, you can figure out which empire is subsidizing them, and that could lead to war.

-- I agree that the bases could be a little more stealthy, and that it might take some work to find. But perhaps the signature event that would give them away would be that they transmit a message or that one of their ships undock...
** If you have them transmit a message, everytime they try to barter with the empire, they would be triangulated and destroyed. But it also would increase the overhead of the game system because you are now calculated a whole lot more data. And pirates in my games transmit a lot of messages.
** To have them undock as a show event would work well as a trigger.

** I disagree about it effecting an Empire's reputation. If another empire knows that you crack down on pirates and that no pirates are operating in your space to attack them, it would boost your reputation.
** If the U.S. attacked and sank some of these Somali Pirates, like after they killed that American family, who is going to care if the U.S. attacks them. If you have pirate ships attacking bases and shipping, the local folks are not going to care if you smash them to oblivion or not. They are going to want you to end the problem.
** I do not condone just blasting stuff without warning, but that is the risk you take in such a high risk game like piracy. Because you ain't the biggest and baddest guy out there, and people are not going to like the kind of terror you bring.

Again, just offering my two cents worth on the subject.



tjhkkr -> RE: Killing Pirates feels like an exploit (2/28/2011 9:58:46 PM)

One other thought...

A government backed piracy force in space would be a dangerous move, because you might find yourself at the wrong end of the very pirates you backed... and we are talking pirates who can bring world devastating weapons to bear... even primative nuclear warheads.

More thoughts from the peanut gallery.



Kayoz -> RE: Killing Pirates feels like an exploit (2/28/2011 9:59:12 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Merker

It's elementary dear Data, instead of making something so complicated with pirates, why not make them like an independent colony in the sense of evolution.


Another independent colony to invade - that's about all it would be to me.



shinobu -> RE: Killing Pirates feels like an exploit (3/1/2011 2:16:06 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: J HG T

BTW. I've probably missed something from classic gaming, but what are these "space crystals" I seem to hear of every now and then?



Here J HG T:

http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Crystalline_Entity




J HG T -> RE: Killing Pirates feels like an exploit (3/1/2011 7:44:14 AM)

OOooo... that's nasty. Definetly would add depth and need for tactics if something similar would be added to DW.

Thanks for the info shinobu!



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